Tube Amps vs SS Amps...

mhardy6647

txcoastal1 wrote: »

mhardy or any other that can answer this...sorry if this is considered hi-jacking but seems to fit the thread on tube aspects and info...as I have been reading trying to find out where to begin with tube equipment for a 2 chnl system I want to put together...it has been mentioned that tube amps match better with 89db or higher speakers especially horns...any explanations or is this some speculative preference

Thanks Ron

You would do well to do a search here and/or at audiokarma.org or start a new thread. Not totally speculative (e.g., look at distortion vs. power curves for many "modern" class AB amplifiers and you'll get a clue about what may be going on) but many have weighed in on the general topic before and it's not quite in sync with the original poster (not that I have necessarily been either...)

FWIW, 89 dB/watt @ 1meter isn't really what I'd consider a very sensitive loudspeaker :-)

intangible

That was fairly interesting, but I don't really see the relation to my question.

For an amplifier to be "warm" relative to another, the low frequency portion of the signal must be amplified to a greater degree than the rest. A properly functioning amplifier's frequency response is essentially flat across the audible range of frequencies, correct? What I am being told, then, is that the interaction of the amplifier with the speaker is what causes one amp to be warmer than the other and that the variable responsible, since the amplifiers both generate essentially identical signals to be passed to identical speakers, is the amplifiers output impedance.

The text clearly explains how poor impedance matching can rob a speaker of power, but that is across the entire frequency spectrum, right? For an amp to be warm, it would have to rob the speaker of power in the middle and upper frequencies while leaving the low frequencies untouched.

treitz3

Could we please stay on topic? This thread is a review of SS -vs- Tube amplifiers. Please do not add yourself to the list of unwanted trolls on this forum. Make another thread to answer your individual question, please.

heiney9

TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »

I have to agree there is so much to choose from.

Pass Labs and Krell just might do it but I don't know since I haven't even had my eyes on one let alone my ears..

Be careful, two completely different amps w/completely different presentations. I agree with Leroy1, there are better SS amps out there (as nice as the 5802 is). If the sound you are hearing with the tubes amps is more to your liking I'd check out Pass Labs. You won't find a SS amp that will give you 100% tube sound, but close.

Be the first to try one of these.

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/firstwatt11/m2.html

I am soooooo tempted, but the cost is prohibitive for me right now.

H9

VR3

I hate to say this - but having owned a slew of Adcom amps I can rightfully say that they are some horrible sounding amps. Really any -nicer- amplifier, either SS or Tube would be a substantial upgrade in the mid and high registers.

Everytime I hear Adcom I hear "smeared" highs with a blanket over everything with bloated bass...

Having heard Tom's tube amp against say my Odyssey amplifiers - I prefer my Odyssey's for the sound I am looking for. I think having tubes in the mix (like a preamp) with SS grit, slam, and power is more of what I go for...

But I would love to read this thread again with the OP comparing a nicer SS amp to a tube amp and see the outcome as I believe it would be very different.

heiney9

Well Trey unless you've heard the 5802 then you shouldn't pass judgement because it's a stellar amp. I have also heard several Adcom amps are I don't share your experiences. They certainly are a very decent amp and nothing like you describe, IMO.

H9

tonyb

I can agree that SS amps are getting closer to the sound of tubes, but you still can't beat a good tube amp for SQ. The air and weight they present around the notes are still unmatched by any SS amp, at least the ones I've had an ear on. Like all things, tubes may not be everyones cup of tea. The whole SS vs Tubes thing imho can go either way depending on gear and listening habits.

headrott

From a tonal point of view, SS amps have a very hard time expressing the tones of some good quality tubes and a good quality tube amp(s). People can argue all day about what qualifies as "good" tubes and a "good" tube amp. But, even some halfway decent tubes in a tube amp or amps sound better than an equivalent priced SS amp. My Aragon SS amp sounds very good even from a tonal point of view. It is clean, detailed, and bass so tight it would be the Mr. Universe if tightness of bass was like the tightness of muscles on a person. OK, I am getting using the analogy too much but you hopefully get the point. With all the great things about the Aragon, tonally it is not as good as my tube amp though. Tones is where it's at...... That's what adds the "soul" that H9 is talking about.

Greg

Timothy Smith

Tubes are groovy.

I hear new things in albums I have listened to hundreds of times vs. SS.

I have a few relatively low powered tube options including a Dynaco ST-70 and a Cayin TA-30 integrated, as well as a tube buffer.

I always wanted to try a tube pre with my Rotel RB-1080 200wpc solid state amp.

Used tube preamps like Conrad Johnson, Audio Research, McIntosh are way up there price-wise, mostly in the $750 + range on E-bay.

As an alternative I took delivery of a used Antique Sound Labs Line One DT tube pre a few days ago for $130 delivered, (it only cost about $350 new).

Having a great time going through my familiar records and CD's again with this new preamp. I seem to "GET" the music in a different way. I can't really explain it

VR3

heiney9 wrote: »

Well Trey unless you've heard the 5802 then you shouldn't pass judgement because it's a stellar amp. I have also heard several Adcom amps are I don't share your experiences. They certainly are a very decent amp and nothing like you describe, IMO.

H9

Ive owned just about the whole line up of the older stuff - and from most people I talk to they like the older gear over the newer gear...

But Ive owned the 535, 535 ii ,545, 545 ii, 555

We'll have to agree to disagree - Adcom is an excellent get your feet wet amplifier. But it definitely should not be the end of anyones journey.

Pass Labs is an excellent step for an Adcom owner - and not to mention a hell of alot more amplifier which used is not much more.

Either way - that is kind of my point of my original post in this thread. Id like to see Larry compare a tube amp to a slightly nicer SS amplifier - Adcom is definitely not the one to compare as they are the cliche definition of SS - grit, slam, boom (IMO of course)

heiney9

The 5802 is leaps and bounds better than the older stuff. I just wanted to point that out since everyone who hasn't heard it seems to lump it with the older stuff.

3 peices that are far away from the typical Adcom sound and build were

GFP-750 pre-amp
GFA- 5802 amp

Both were heavily designed by Nelson Pass w/ a few typical cost cutting measures.

GCD-750 cdp is/was a great sounding cdp for it's day.

These aren't even on the same planet as the typical 555, 545, or other preamps.

But to each their own. It's like saying I heard a Parasound HCA1500 and I didn't like it so the the JC1's probably stink too.

I also agree Adcom should NOT be the end of one's journey but to lump the 5802 into the rest of the Adcom gear is very short sighted because it's not fair.

That's all I'm saying, no arguement from me otherwise.

H9

VR3

Fair enough

Toolfan66

heiney9 wrote: »

The 5802 is leaps and bounds better than the older stuff. I just wanted to point that out since everyone who hasn't heard it seems to lump it with the older stuff.

3 peices that are far away from the typical Adcom sound and build were

GFP-750 pre-amp
GFA- 5802 amp

Both were heavily designed by Nelson Pass w/ a few typical cost cutting measures.

GCD-750 cdp is/was a great sounding cdp for it's day.

These aren't even on the same planet as the typical 555, 545, or other preamps.

But to each their own. It's like saying I heard a Parasound HCA1500 and I didn't like it so the the JC1's probably stink too.

I also agree Adcom should NOT be the end of one's journey but to lump the 5802 into the rest of the Adcom gear is very short sighted because it's not fair.

That's all I'm saying, no arguement from me otherwise.

H9

I have all three!!!!:cool:

heiney9

Larry, those are some awesome tube mono's you have there. I doubt you'll find a SS amp that will sound like them or better them based on the attributes you like so much. I will say again something in the Pass line can give some of the attributes of both especially the soundstage and a detailed yet laid back top end and a midrange warmth that is very hard to find in a typical SS design.

Not really a fair comparison, but I have brought both my low powered tube integrated amps out into the main rig. I have rolled in some of the best NOS tubes available and while at lower to modest listening levels the tube integrated's sound very, very good. Going back to the Pass Aleph with a tube pre is so much better in every single way it's startling.

Not the same thing you have going on as you tube mono's are stellar compared to my flea powered integrated's.

Anyway enjoy and perhaps sell the 5802 and try a Pass amp for something a little different. The stunning clarity, sound space and dynamics of the Pass Aleph is the thing that always keeps me grinning from ear to ear. The sound is addictive just like the "soul" of tubes is addictive.

H9

mhardy6647

intangible wrote: »

That was fairly interesting, but I don't really see the relation to my question.

For an amplifier to be "warm" relative to another, the low frequency portion of the signal must be amplified to a greater degree than the rest. A properly functioning amplifier's frequency response is essentially flat across the audible range of frequencies, correct? What I am being told, then, is that the interaction of the amplifier with the speaker is what causes one amp to be warmer than the other and that the variable responsible, since the amplifiers both generate essentially identical signals to be passed to identical speakers, is the amplifiers output impedance.

The text clearly explains how poor impedance matching can rob a speaker of power, but that is across the entire frequency spectrum, right? For an amp to be warm, it would have to rob the speaker of power in the middle and upper frequencies while leaving the low frequencies untouched.

So... the impedance of virtually all loudspeakers varies with frequency. Power transfer varies with impedance; one might reasonably expect these two factoids to lead inexorably to the conclusion that there might be some frequency dependent nonlinearity going on when a reactive loudspeaker loads an imperfect amplifier's output.

There are other nontrivial forms of nonlinearity (distortion) in terms of the 'reality' of reproduction of a musical waveform. Reasonable amounts (<1%) of harmonic distortion (except the "buzzy" sounding third and higher, odd order harmonics) isn't really much of a culprit when it comes to unpleasant distortion - this is one of the reasons that single ended power amplifiers are sometimes (and somewhat rightly) accused of introducing "euphonic" distortion: the predominant harmonic distortion of a signal through a single-ended power amp is second order... the second order harmonic of a fundamental tone is exactly an octave above the fundamental, providing a rich and euphonic "choral" effect. Not that this is accurate; but it sounds good. That's why the fuzzy guitar riff at the beginning of Satisfaction sounds so good (to many of us).

A push-pull amplifier cancels out all of the even-order harmonics; only odd-order harmonics come through. If there is any significant amount of third or fifth harmonic distortion in the output it will sound quite nasty (think transistor radio turned up to hard clipping).

If you like, take a look at (particularly) page 6 at this reasonably reasonable tome I just found: http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/vaughn/downloads/SE-v-PP-Part1.pdf

Is this helping at all? If not, I'll move along; I may (still) not be answering the (implicit?) question in the original post :-P

sucks2beme

mhardy6647 wrote: »

]
Synergy is just a word; we're big boys and girls and can handle a little (just a little) of the actual nuts and bolts :-)
Download at least vol. 1 of Norman Crowhurst's great 1959 trilogy on "basic audio", available gratis on Pete Millett's wonderful www.tubebooks.org archive.

And Pete Millett has come up with a lot of great DIY projects for headphone
amps. I have had several of his projects here, and still have the Millett
minimax in use. He sometimes shows up at the DFW head-fi meets bearing
lotts of glass stuff!
I sometimes swap the Rotel in place of the ARC here. Normally it doesn't stay
there long.

heiney9

intangible wrote: »

Sorry, the intelligent ones don't do that.

The claim I have seen is that a properly functioning amp has an essentially flat frequency response, and the THD of a solid state amp is lower than the remainder of the system to the point that it is inconsequential; therefore, two properly functioning solid state amps of appropriate current/power for the driven speakers should be audibly indistinguishable. This seems logically sound.

I don't want to derail the thread, though. I'm quite jealous of your amps, TOOLFORLIFEFAN; I'm sure they sound fantastic.

Nope and Nope.

The scope of your question is far beyond a few simple sentences. I will say measurements vs. real world is night and day.

H9

mhardy6647

heiney9 wrote: »

Nope and Nope.

The scope of your question is far beyond a few simple sentences. I will say measurements vs. real world is night and day.

H9

Yup, I would concur, in that most amp measurements are made with a purely resistive dummy load on the output and most loudspeaker measurements are made in anechoic chambers.

Pete Millett is a great guy and a great resource for folks like me... but he is generally a bit OT for this thread! ;-)


(one of Pete's hybrid low-voltage space charge tube phone amp/linestage creations that I've built... but that's really offtopic)

zingo

I am currently playing around with my 300B amp vs a Tripath amp that I'm upgrading and an ICEpower class D amp. I haven't made any conclusive findings yet, but through my Klipsch horns, the Tripath has lower noise and better tone than a pair of vintage H/K monoblocks I was able to demo. The class D on the horns should be an interesting listen and I'm not quite sure what to expect. I'm a firm believer in class A solid state, but these new switching amps seems to be making improvements in SQ against the classic A/B amps.

RickTfromAZ

I have the Adcom 5802/GFP-750 pair. I have been very happy with them. But, I'm looking to move up also. Possibly Parasound and/or Pass Labs.

Dawgfish

RickTfromAZ wrote: »

I have the Adcom 5802/GFP-750 pair. I have been very happy with them. But, I'm looking to move up also. Possibly Parasound and/or Pass Labs.

Very nice gear! If you are looking to stay SS, I would add B&K to that list also. They have a very nice, warm sound that is somewhat tubeish. However I'm one of those folks that says if you are looking for a SS amp with tube-like sound, why not just go all the way and get a tube amp? I did and never looked back. Some still prefer the SS sound, especially in the lows and say that tube amps don't have the quickness and low-end extension that high quality SS amps have. That may have been true for many older and more moderately priced tube amps, but modern, quality tube amps have much of the quickness and low-end extension that a good SS amp has, while retaining that hypnotic tube mid-range. I'll never go back to SS, but that's just me.

mhardy6647

heh, I spent the evening listening to one of these on the Duplexes...

http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=310-300&FTR=

TNHNDYMAN

^ That little amp looks pretty neat MrH-- looks like it would make a great portable amp for me to take in my testing kit for when I'm out hunting gear at flea mrkts and garage sales. I could keep it, a portable cd player, and a pair of Minimus 7's in an old egg crate in the trunk.

mhardy6647

The cheap little Lepai (Chinese for "Brand X", I reckon), remarkably, does not suck.