Sunfire TGA 5200

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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,925
    edited December 2010
    This message is hidden because jinjuku is on your ignore list.

    ....
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2800 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon MiND2 Shunyata Triton

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson

    How many flies need to be buzzing a dead horse before you guys stop beating it?
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited December 2010
    nooshinjohn wrote: »
    LMAO!!! That is classic Juju signature material right there!:biggrin::rolleyes:
    I understand all of that... but the way you put it together makes you sound like you are clueless yourself, and clipping was not the issue he was having in the first place. From your Flickr account, it is obvious that you have a high level of distain for CP and it's membership, so I will ask you the same thing Ben did... Why are you here?

    You STILL don't get it: Some people will not be be able to pick out one quality ss amp from another when level matched and no sighted bias and none of the amps is clipping (distortion).

    Real simple concept. I am wondering if the OP's speaker placement is optimal. Also with a 12X12 room is it very possible he has some room null that doesn't matter what amp/pre/cable he throws into the mix won't solve. May be that he needs a simple room treatement/sound absorptive.

    Let me know if you want to get back on topic and help the OP out or not. If not please kindly remove yourself from this thread. You can always start up another Jinjuku thread. It'll make it about two pages before lock or deletion.
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  • concealer404
    concealer404 Posts: 7,440
    edited December 2010
    Distortion =! clipping
    I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.

    Living Room: B&K Reference 5 S2 / Parasound HCA-1000A / Emotiva XDA-2 / Pioneer BDP-51FD / Paradigm 11se MKiii

    Desk: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / ISK HD9999

    Office: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / Dynaco SCA-80Q / Paradigm Legend V.3

    HT: Denon AVR-X3400H / Sony UBP-X700 / RT16 / CS350LS / RT7 / SVS PB1000
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,432
    edited December 2010
    jinjuku wrote: »
    Some people like H9 were actually cautioning against the more watts is better.

    I will continue to caution this idea, because watts don't mean squat unless you want to hit extreme SPL's. The fact that you don't understand this shows how inept your knowledge is about this hobby.

    Is that caution for everyone in every situation? No, but the fact is Watts mean nothing as to how well a system can reproduce sound. Watts have little to do with headroom. Are there low wattage amps that sound like doo doo compared to high wattge amps? Sure...... Are there high wattage amps that sound like doo doo compared to low wattage amps? Sure

    It's all in the implepmentation and design. END OF STORY

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited December 2010
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Wrong with a capital W. So distortion in an amp is only present when it's clipping? If it's not clipping then all levels of distortion for any given amp and topology are the same? That is so wrong, I don't even know where to begin.

    :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

    You have absolutely no concept about such subject matter.

    H9

    AUDIBLE distortion. I don't know of a modern SS amp that has audible distortion in its usable power envelope.

    No not all Amps have the same distortion levels but they are all non-audible in their rated operating range. My Parasound is like 0.03% at full tilt RMS, but that will change if pushed into clipping.


    That is an Amp with .03% THD and an amp with .003 THD are both non-audible. Is one 10 times better? on paper yes.
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  • TNRabbit
    TNRabbit Posts: 2,168
    edited December 2010
    avphile wrote: »
    TNRabbit,

    I was expecting the volume to louder at the same setting. Overall improved SQ.

    It doesn't quite work that way~

    An increase in SPL requires a like increase in input. Most preamps have a "relatively" standard output, & most amps have a "relatively" standard input sensitivity. you have to increase the preamp output to increase the amp output. A 100 watt amp & a 1000 watt amp will put out "about" the same in terms of where the gain (volume) on the preamp is set; the 100 watt amp will run out of juice/clip at a lower gain setting than the 1000 watt amp.

    As far as improved SQ, I don't know what to tell you. My Sunfire was OBVIOUSLY better than the Pioneer receiver it replaced...
    TNRabbit
    NO Polk Audio Equipment :eek:
    Sunfire TG-IV
    Ashly 1001 Active Crossover
    Rane PEQ-15 Parametric Equalizers x 2
    Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature Seven
    Carver AL-III Speakers
    Klipsch RT-12d Subwoofer
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited December 2010
    concealer404 wrote: »
    Distortion =! clipping

    Clipping most definitely = distortion.

    You will really need to clarify what you are getting at. I am talking about audible distortion. Even speakers have some amount of distortion (being the mechanical devices they are) especially sub-woofers.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,432
    edited December 2010
    jinjuku wrote: »
    AUDIBLE distortion. I don't know of a modern SS amp that has audible distortion in its usable power envelope.

    Wrong again with a capital W.

    Try again

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • concealer404
    concealer404 Posts: 7,440
    edited December 2010
    jinjuku wrote: »
    Clipping most definitely = distortion.

    Maybe so, but that's not what i posted, now is it?

    Let me check.
    me wrote:
    Distortion =! clipping

    Nope. It sure isn't.
    I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.

    Living Room: B&K Reference 5 S2 / Parasound HCA-1000A / Emotiva XDA-2 / Pioneer BDP-51FD / Paradigm 11se MKiii

    Desk: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / ISK HD9999

    Office: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / Dynaco SCA-80Q / Paradigm Legend V.3

    HT: Denon AVR-X3400H / Sony UBP-X700 / RT16 / CS350LS / RT7 / SVS PB1000
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,432
    edited December 2010
    JuJu, you have a lot to learn

    There are linear and non-linear forms of distortion. Linear distortions affect the amplitude and phase of audio signals, but don't show up on harmonic distortion analyzers as added frequency components that weren't there in the first place. Tone controls are a good example of circuits with linear distortion.

    Nonlinear distortions are those which add new frequency components to the original signal, either as harmonic multiples of the original frequencies or as sidebands resulting from their non-linear interaction between the original frequencies. Nonlinearities are often deliberately created in musical instruments themselves, but they are unwanted in music reproduction. We
    will be talking about nonlinear distortions.

    We use negative feedback in audio amplifiers to stabilize the gain, increase the bandwidth, lower the output impedance and lower the non-linear distortion. It is the aspect of reducing the distortion which tends to generate the most controversy – negative feedback is very successful in lowering distortion to very tiny numbers as measured by distortion analyzers.

    As Mr. Spock said, “Instruments only measure what they were designed to measure.” * Given the complaints of audiophiles over the sound of high-feedback type amplifiers, it is reasonable to examine non-linear distortion in greater depth than is possible with a single number.

    Non-linearity = distortion.

    All distortion is audible

    I post this link for others as well as JuJu, but I doubt JuJu will take the time to read it. He already knows everything, apparently :rolleyes: Ignore the feedback discussion, although that is the single highest contributor to distortion in an amplifier even if the concept is to reduce the distortion that can be measured.

    http://www.passlabs.com/pdfs/articles/distortion_and_feedback.pdf

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited December 2010
    heiney9 wrote: »
    JuJu, you have a lot to learn

    There are linear and non-linear forms of distortion. Linear distortions affect the amplitude and phase of audio signals, but don't show up on harmonic distortion analyzers as added frequency components that weren't there in the first place. Tone controls are a good example of circuits with linear distortion.

    Nonlinear distortions are those which add new frequency components to the original signal, either as harmonic multiples of the original frequencies or as sidebands resulting from their non-linear interaction between the original frequencies. Nonlinearities are often deliberately created in musical instruments themselves, but they are unwanted in music reproduction. We
    will be talking about nonlinear distortions.

    We use negative feedback in audio amplifiers to stabilize the gain, increase the bandwidth, lower the output impedance and lower the non-linear distortion. It is the aspect of reducing the distortion which tends to generate the most controversy – negative feedback is very successful in lowering distortion to very tiny numbers as measured by distortion analyzers.

    As Mr. Spock said, “Instruments only measure what they were designed to measure.” * Given the complaints of audiophiles over the sound of high-feedback type amplifiers, it is reasonable to examine non-linear distortion in greater depth than is possible with a single number.

    Non-linearity = distortion.

    All distortion is audible

    I post this link for others as well as JuJu, but I doubt JuJu will take the time to read it. He already knows everything, apparently :rolleyes: Ignore the feedback discussion, although that is the single highest contributor to distortion in an amplifier even if the concept is to reduce the distortion that can be measured.

    http://www.passlabs.com/pdfs/articles/distortion_and_feedback.pdf

    H9

    LOL, you made my point for me:

    Ahem:

    We use negative feedback in audio amplifiers to stabilize the gain, increase the bandwidth, lower the output impedance and lower the non-linear distortion. It is the aspect of reducing the distortion which tends to generate the most controversy – negative feedback is very successful in lowering distortion to very tiny numbers as measured by distortion analyzers.

    Stop parroting and start understanding. I am talking about the fact the BOTH the elite and the sunfire are of competent enough designs (negative feedback, dampening, slew rate, etc...) that they both solve the same problem: Effectively driving the OP's 8 ohm speakers. Up until clipping. That the OP may indeed not hear a difference.


    Properly designed negative feed back not only corrects for output voltage errors induced by the speaker but also produces other benefits:

    * Low distortion
    * Low noise (hiss)
    * Flat frequency response

    Some 'phile's hate designs with high negative feedback. This isn't a perfect world. What I am saying still stands:

    1. For the OP both amps do a good enough job on his speakers as to have no audible difference for him.

    2. He may not hear a difference until the Pioneer clips and the Sunfire does not. If he doesn't drive the amp to clipping then he may not.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,432
    edited December 2010
    You obviously didn't read the article. Negative feedback adds unwanted distortion to the signal. I was simply stating that your statement:

    "AUDIBLE distortion. I don't know of a modern SS amp that has audible distortion in its usable power envelope."

    is completely wrong. There is not a single truth in the above statement. And the Sunfire and Pioneer are different enough from a design POV that the Sunfire should sound different enough to notice a difference.

    If you aren't willing to concede you statement is FALSE then I have nothing further to say to you. You are wrong, end of story.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,432
    edited December 2010
    jinjuku wrote: »


    Properly designed negative feed back not only corrects for output voltage errors induced by the speaker but also produces other benefits:

    * Low distortion
    * Low noise (hiss)
    * Flat frequency response

    0 for 3.............wrong again with a capital W. I'm done here, Merry Christmas in the spirit of the season.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited December 2010
    concealer404 wrote: »
    Maybe so, but that's not what i posted, now is it?

    Let me check.



    Nope. It sure isn't.

    I did say that clipping = distortion....
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  • sucks2beme
    sucks2beme Posts: 5,683
    edited December 2010
    The benifits of external amps are more power and less heat in the receiver.
    The sound quality of the preamp section of course sounds the same.
    The better amp would only sound night and day if you were straining the current HT system. But better amps will have a better sound, but you will have to listen a bit to notice. Music will show this much better than HT
    ever will. Watts are just one measure of an amps performance,just like
    horsepower is just one aspect of an engines performance.
    I have had another member run a B&K with his HT receiver,and didn't think it sounded good. I loaned him a pre-amp,and that made the difference.

    Most of us here at club polk are willing to drop major coin for small improvements in sound quality. This is a warning to all the new guys.
    Just like a car, adding that great exhaust may not make a huge
    improvement in performance. But when you add the blower, you'd better have the exhaust to support it. We tend to think the same way.
    Don't run out and drop a grand looking for a miracle.
    I might disagree with Jinjuku on a lot, but he is right in the fact that
    that throwing big $$$ at something audio might not always pay off big.
    "The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." --Thomas Jefferson
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited December 2010
    heiney9 wrote: »
    You obviously didn't read the article. Negative feedback adds unwanted distortion to the signal. I was simply stating that your statement:

    "AUDIBLE distortion. I don't know of a modern SS amp that has audible distortion in its usable power envelope."

    is completely wrong. There is not a single truth in the above statement. And the Sunfire and Pioneer are different enough from a design POV that the Sunfire should sound different enough to notice a difference.

    If you aren't willing to concede you statement is FALSE then I have nothing further to say to you. You are wrong, end of story.

    H9

    You really are going to have to provide some proof H9... Sorry but you're making a statement without backing it up.

    Parasound measures my HCA 1000A at 0.03 % THD at RMS. It's not audible. It's rated 20hz to 20Khz.
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  • concealer404
    concealer404 Posts: 7,440
    edited December 2010
    jinjuku wrote: »
    I did say that clipping = distortion....

    Ok...?
    I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.

    Living Room: B&K Reference 5 S2 / Parasound HCA-1000A / Emotiva XDA-2 / Pioneer BDP-51FD / Paradigm 11se MKiii

    Desk: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / ISK HD9999

    Office: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / Dynaco SCA-80Q / Paradigm Legend V.3

    HT: Denon AVR-X3400H / Sony UBP-X700 / RT16 / CS350LS / RT7 / SVS PB1000
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,432
    edited December 2010
    jinjuku wrote: »
    You really are going to have to provide some proof H9... Sorry but you're making a statement without backing it up.

    Parasound measures my HCA 1000A at 0.03 % THD at RMS. It's not audible. It's rated 20hz to 20Khz.

    Read the DAMN LINK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    There is no such thing as inaudible distortion, it doesn't exist.

    Again Merry Christmas in the spirit of the season

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • concealer404
    concealer404 Posts: 7,440
    edited December 2010
    jinjuku wrote: »
    You really are going to have to provide some proof H9... Sorry but you're making a statement without backing it up.

    Parasound measures my HCA 1000A at 0.03 % THD at RMS. It's not audible. It's rated 20hz to 20Khz.

    If it's not audible then how exactly is it measured?
    I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.

    Living Room: B&K Reference 5 S2 / Parasound HCA-1000A / Emotiva XDA-2 / Pioneer BDP-51FD / Paradigm 11se MKiii

    Desk: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / ISK HD9999

    Office: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / Dynaco SCA-80Q / Paradigm Legend V.3

    HT: Denon AVR-X3400H / Sony UBP-X700 / RT16 / CS350LS / RT7 / SVS PB1000
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited December 2010
    heiney9 wrote: »
    0 for 3.............wrong again with a capital W. I'm done here, Merry Christmas in the spirit of the season.

    H9

    Mr. Pass happens to agree...
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited December 2010
    concealer404 wrote: »
    If it's not audible then how exactly is it measured?

    An single cell isn't viewable with the human eye, how exactly is it measured?
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,925
    edited December 2010
    You are dead on H9.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2800 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon MiND2 Shunyata Triton

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson

    How many flies need to be buzzing a dead horse before you guys stop beating it?
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  • [Deleted User]
    [Deleted User] Posts: 7,658
    edited December 2010
    For crying out loud can everybody calm down? One argument gets settled and another one breaks out! Doesn't this stuff ever get old? I get tired reading it.
    Go bake some Christmas cookies, wrap some presents, listen to Bing Crosby records, knit a sweater, do something constructive.
    I swear I'm going to shut down every argumentative thread from now until Christmas!
    Ken
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,432
    edited December 2010
    jinjuku wrote: »
    Mr. Pass happens to agree...

    Please show me in this DIRECT quote where NP agree's negative feedback helps with the (3) things you listed?

    I am trying to make a point that relates strongly to the apparent disconnect between subjective experience and simple measurements of distortion. We have seen that nonlinear distortion becomes larger and more complex depending on the nonlinear characteristic of the stages, the number of cascaded stages, and the number of spectral elements in the music.

    Negative feedback can reduce the total quantity of distortion, but it adds new components on its own, and tempts the designer to use more cascaded gain stages in search of better numbers, accompanied by greater feedback frequency stability issues. The resulting complexity creates distortion which is unlike the simple harmonics associated with musical instruments, and we see that these complex waves can gather to create the occasional tsunami of distortion, peaking at values far above those imagined by the distortion specifications.

    If you want the peak distortion of the circuit of figure 13 to remain below .1% with a complex signal, then you need to reduce it by a factor of about 3000. 70 dB of feedback would do it, but that does seems like a lot.

    By contrast, it appears that if you can make a single stage operate at .01% 2nd harmonic with a single tone without feedback, you could also achieve the .1% peak in the complex IM test.I like to think the latter would sound better.

    Please tell me how he agree's with you, based on the bolded info above?

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • concealer404
    concealer404 Posts: 7,440
    edited December 2010
    jinjuku wrote: »
    An single cell isn't viewable with the human eye, how exactly is it measured?

    You can see it with magnification.

    But besides that nit-picking response of mine... here's something that is a bit more relevant.

    You can see a COLLECTION of cells. And cells certainly matter. The little things that you may not notice by themselves, and may not be able to slap you in the face, definitely make a difference.

    It's the same thing as having a tweeter capable of producing frequencies that we can't even "hear," according to science. Yet somehow, there's an impact. There's subwoofers that go lower than what we can "hear." Yet, they make a difference.
    I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.

    Living Room: B&K Reference 5 S2 / Parasound HCA-1000A / Emotiva XDA-2 / Pioneer BDP-51FD / Paradigm 11se MKiii

    Desk: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / ISK HD9999

    Office: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / Dynaco SCA-80Q / Paradigm Legend V.3

    HT: Denon AVR-X3400H / Sony UBP-X700 / RT16 / CS350LS / RT7 / SVS PB1000
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  • concealer404
    concealer404 Posts: 7,440
    edited December 2010
    Kenneth Swauger wrote: »
    For crying out loud can everybody calm down? One argument gets settled and another one breaks out! Doesn't this stuff ever get old? I get tired reading it.
    Go bake some Christmas cookies, wrap some presents, listen to Bing Crosby records, knit a sweater, do something constructive.
    I swear I'm going to shut down every argumentative thread from now until Christmas!
    Ken

    Might be a good idea. My apologies for my part, Ken. :redface:
    I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.

    Living Room: B&K Reference 5 S2 / Parasound HCA-1000A / Emotiva XDA-2 / Pioneer BDP-51FD / Paradigm 11se MKiii

    Desk: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / ISK HD9999

    Office: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / Dynaco SCA-80Q / Paradigm Legend V.3

    HT: Denon AVR-X3400H / Sony UBP-X700 / RT16 / CS350LS / RT7 / SVS PB1000
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,432
    edited December 2010
    Kenneth Swauger wrote: »
    For crying out loud can everybody calm down? One argument gets settled and another one breaks out! Doesn't this stuff ever get old? I get tired reading it.
    Go bake some Christmas cookies, wrap some presents, listen to Bing Crosby records, knit a sweater, do something constructive.
    I swear I'm going to shut down every argumentative thread from now until Christmas!
    Ken

    Huh? I thought audio debate was part of the hobby?

    Guess, I'm done here.

    Merry X-mas to all

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited December 2010
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Read the DAMN LINK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    There is no such thing as inaudible distortion, it doesn't exist.

    Again Merry Christmas in the spirit of the season

    H9

    I read the link... I am talking about clipping = distortion as per the OP not hearing a difference.

    I understand that the input into a gain stage and the output is different. I understand that negative feedback designs trade lower distortion for more harmonics. That is all about how an amp sounds (why some would prefer a 15 watt class A vs a 150 watt class A/B or D).

    I am not saying your wrong on this. Engineering is about effectively solving the problem as best as one can. I will quote from the same article:

    If the open loop distortion of the amplifier is 5%, then
    60 dB of feedback should make it about .005%.

    The question is: Does the this particular feedback design change the sonic character of an amp and is that level of distortion audible/perceptable?
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