Sunfire TGA 5200
avphile
Posts: 38
I just picked up a Sunfire TGA 5200. I am driving it with a Pioneer Elite 84TXSi (rated at 140W per channel). My left/right speakers are Rti-10. My center speaker is Csi-5. I don't seem to hear the night and day difference that everyone is talking abot when going from integrated to separates. Are my speaker settings on the Pioneer present at both the Pioneer speaker terminal outputs and the Pre-processor output? I was expecting the SPL to be 3dB or more when I use the Sunfire but it it not. What am I doing wrong? Or should I get something with more power like the TGA7401?
Thanks,
Thanks,
Post edited by avphile on
Comments
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I just picked up a Sunfire TGA 5200. I am driving it with a Pioneer Elite 84TXSi (rated at 140W per channel). My left/right speakers are Rti-10. My center speaker is Csi-5. I don't seem to hear the night and day difference that everyone is talking abot when going from integrated to separates. Are my speaker settings on the Pioneer present at both the Pioneer speaker terminal outputs and the Pre-processor output? I was expecting the SPL to be 3dB or more when I use the Sunfire but it it not. What am I doing wrong? Or should I get something with more power like the TGA7401?
Thanks,
Try running your auto eq routine again. Your Elite already has a pretty robust amp section.
I for one have never heard an amp make a night and day difference. I have heard differences but the amount of importance that I place on that may just be a simple improvement for me but an OMG moment for another.
You are going from 140 WPC to 200 WPC. Not a large increase (may be 1dB more headroom). I don't know your room dimensions but 140 watts on those 10's should make your ears bleed. Not surprised you didn't hear a difference.
And even if you go up to the higher end Sunfire, don't be too disappointed if you don't hear that 'something special'. -
A watt is not a watt. Good amps are rated all channels driven at 20-20k. A receiver is usually measured at 1k peak before clipping.Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
Thanks
Ben -
I don't believe the Pioneer doubles its output into 4 ohms. The drastic difference maybe be more apparent if I had more demanding speakers, 4 ohms or less (Polk LSI or Martin Logan Vista).
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I don't believe the Pioneer doubles its output into 4 ohms. The drastic difference maybe be more apparent if I had more demanding speakers, 4 ohms or less (Polk LSI or Martin Logan Vista).
Not alot of receivers double down on the power output from 8ohm to 4ohm. Can't think of one of the top of my head. Heck, most amps don't double down.
May I suggest a change in IC cables connecting the amp. What are you using now ? Made a very noticeable difference for me. You have to try and find the synergy in your system before booting a piece of gear down the road.HT SYSTEM-
Sony 850c 4k
Pioneer elite vhx 21
Sony 4k BRP
SVS SB-2000
Polk Sig. 20's
Polk FX500 surrounds
Cables-
Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable
Kitchen
Sonos zp90
Grant Fidelity tube dac
B&k 1420
lsi 9's -
nooshinjohn wrote: »This is further proof that you do not know what you are talking about.:rolleyes:
The biggest difference an amp has made that kind of got me close to an OMG moment was the Behringer EP2500 driving my subs.
As far as NAD/Classe/Parasound/Adcom/Rotel that I have heard in the past 1/2 year... meh.... YMM. My local dealer is literally a 1 mile down the road and I demoed some Classe and Rotel. There were some differences but I guess my expectation bias got in the way because there just wasn't a staggering difference.
Keep up the personal attacks. It seems to be the only thing you are good at. -
I am using Audioquest Diamond Back ICs and Audioquest Type 4 for speaker cables.
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You were expecting the SPL to be 3dB what? Louder? Softer? For a given volume setting?
Everything is relative; output impedance of your preamp, input impedance of the Sunfire, output wattage of the preamp, etc. Total output power should definitely be noticeable. I had Pioneer before Sunfire & noticed a significant increase in sound quality....
Are you saying you're running out of power? Clipping?TNRabbit
NO Polk Audio Equipment :eek:
Sunfire TG-IV
Ashly 1001 Active Crossover
Rane PEQ-15 Parametric Equalizers x 2
Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature Seven
Carver AL-III Speakers
Klipsch RT-12d Subwoofer -
I don't believe the Pioneer doubles its output into 4 ohms. The drastic difference maybe be more apparent if I had more demanding speakers, 4 ohms or less (Polk LSI or Martin Logan Vista).
Not sure what this has to do with the RTi 10's. They are 8 ohm nominal. So it's Academic. -
A watt is not a watt. Good amps are rated all channels driven at 20-20k. A receiver is usually measured at 1k peak before clipping.
Absolutely true. BUT I wonder if he is driving the receiver to clipping? If he is not then for most intents and purposes the receiver is not the impediment to better SQ...
In the Spirit of keeping to assisting the OP: What are your room dimensions (L/W/H)? What is your seating distance from the front speakers?
If you get into the Pioneer setup menu's what levels are the L/C/R speakers set at?
Generally reference level is 0.00dB on the gain knob and 85dB of output. Do you have an iPhone? You could get an SPL meter app and at your listening position play a 1Khz tone off of a computer or cd and measure the SPL level at listening position with receiver at 0.00 (assuming the speakers have no additional gain applied by MCACC). We should all be curious as to what level you see. -
Not sure what this has to do with the RTi 10's. They are 8 ohm nominal. So it's Academic.
At higher volumes and lower frequencies, they'll tax a bit more than just 8ohms, but i'm sure you knew that.I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.
Living Room: B&K Reference 5 S2 / Parasound HCA-1000A / Emotiva XDA-2 / Pioneer BDP-51FD / Paradigm 11se MKiii
Desk: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / ISK HD9999
Office: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / Dynaco SCA-80Q / Paradigm Legend V.3
HT: Denon AVR-X3400H / Sony UBP-X700 / RT16 / CS350LS / RT7 / SVS PB1000 -
concealer404 wrote: »At higher volumes and lower frequencies, they'll tax a bit more than just 8ohms, but i'm sure you knew that.
I believe the term is DIP below 8 ohms... it'll happen.
I think Pioneer took that into consideration... STILL the RTi-10 is an 8 ohm design.
I would like to see Frequency and Impedance plots on this speaker to say for sure (if you really want to go down this road). Still I am not sure what any of that has to do with the possibility that the OP isn't driving to the Pioneer to clipping. If you're not hitting the wall with the PSU you aren't hitting the wall with the PSU. -
TNRabbit,
I was expecting the volume to louder at the same setting. Overall improved SQ.
JinJuku,
My room dimension is 12x12 ft. I am sitting 9 ft. away. I am in not way at clipping levels. My volume was -35dB.
Thanks for everyone's input. -
Looks like I have to go down the speaker upgrade path to get the max performance out of my Sunfire.
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Looks like I have to go down the speaker upgrade path to get the max performance out of my Sunfire.
That's rather looking at it backwards, but an upgrade is never a bad thing.I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.
Living Room: B&K Reference 5 S2 / Parasound HCA-1000A / Emotiva XDA-2 / Pioneer BDP-51FD / Paradigm 11se MKiii
Desk: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / ISK HD9999
Office: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / Dynaco SCA-80Q / Paradigm Legend V.3
HT: Denon AVR-X3400H / Sony UBP-X700 / RT16 / CS350LS / RT7 / SVS PB1000 -
TNRabbit,
I was expecting the volume to louder at the same setting. Overall improved SQ.
JinJuku,
My room dimension is 12x12 ft. I am sitting 9 ft. away. I am in not way at clipping levels. My volume was -35dB.
Thanks for everyone's input.
You will gain 3dB in absolute volume (headroom) for every doubling of the amplifier power. That is with your receiver if you are clipping, an external amp that is double the power will give you 6 more .5 dB gain adjustments before you are back into clipping (watered down example, no argumentative posts needed). With a 12X12 room and sitting 9 ft away I doubt you are really pushing that Pioneer which is why you may have not heard a difference. Even with transients. Been known to happen.
SQ will IMO happen with speakers (if you looking for a stark difference). Everyone's mileage may vary and you can only go by what YOU hear.
As Mark said, the RTi's aren't a hard series to drive. Expect crickets after this. -
Sigh. In a room like that, it's not just about constant dB being higher, (silly way to measure performance in a home setting anyways) it's about SQ and headroom.
OP, go back and spend some time setting everything up, and then watch a movie that's got some really taxing impact to it. If you truly don't hear a difference after you have the chance to take in a few movies of the course of a week or so and you feel that your movie viewing experience hasn't been bettered, then sell the Sunfire and enjoy the money in your pocket.
It's all about your ears. Expect jinjuku after this.I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.
Living Room: B&K Reference 5 S2 / Parasound HCA-1000A / Emotiva XDA-2 / Pioneer BDP-51FD / Paradigm 11se MKiii
Desk: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / ISK HD9999
Office: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / Dynaco SCA-80Q / Paradigm Legend V.3
HT: Denon AVR-X3400H / Sony UBP-X700 / RT16 / CS350LS / RT7 / SVS PB1000 -
Jinjuku please tell us why you are a member here.Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
Thanks
Ben -
Jinjuku please tell us why you are a member here.
Ben, if you want to take to issue technically anything that I have brought up in this thread please do so.
I believe the OP has an answer to his question. Good day... -
for failed videoYamaha RX-V2700, EMI 711As (front), RCA K-16 (rear), Magnavox Console (Center & TV Stand), Sony SMP-N200 media streamer, Dual 1249 TT =--- Sharp Aquas 60" LCD tellie
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Just a small one of no real consequence. But I'm sure you knew that
If I took it wrong you have my apologies.
I don't really need an apology, was just bemused a bit. Yeah, that wasn't meant as a jab.I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.
Living Room: B&K Reference 5 S2 / Parasound HCA-1000A / Emotiva XDA-2 / Pioneer BDP-51FD / Paradigm 11se MKiii
Desk: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / ISK HD9999
Office: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / Dynaco SCA-80Q / Paradigm Legend V.3
HT: Denon AVR-X3400H / Sony UBP-X700 / RT16 / CS350LS / RT7 / SVS PB1000 -
Looks like I have to go down the speaker upgrade path to get the max performance out of my Sunfire.
My recomendation is do not buy anything else unless you can try it in your own house and you realize that the gain is worth your money.
I also have a TGA-5200 and I didn't see the so call night and day, next everyone will tell you it is time to upgrade here and there. I would say instead really put down in paper what is your expectation, of-course this is easier said than done; but necessary nontheless.
For example if you feel that one of the reasons to upgrade is you want to have lower volume and still be impressed by the clarity of the sound, then that should be your premise and start looking for what would it take to obtain this.
Next are you going to be in 2ch or Home Theather. some people will tell you what is the difference. The point is that they don't mix. a good 2 ch setup will only give you a good expericence in listening to your CD's. If you try to add the rest of the speakers for HT. what you are going to experience is that you will be looking forward to the music side of the movie because that is where your speakers will excell.
In any case, I have found this to be a true statement "you need to do your own listening" this is very hard to take and accept specially because every once in a while you will see a very nice post where people were in sound nirvana with what they bought. so why are you not getting it.
Who knows but that just goes to show you how different your ears, enviroment, setup etc.
At the end sit back, relax, and enjoy what you have. after all you can spend a lot of time woundering what if and not enjoy what you already have.Current HT setup
Mains: B&W 804s
Center: Polk CSi5
Surround: Polk FXi3
Sub: Velodyne DLS-3750R
Receiver: Pioneer SC-07
Amplifier: Sunfire TGA5200
TV: Sony KDS60A2020
DBP: Sony DBP-S350
CDP: Pioneer DV-48AV
Interconnect cables: SignalCable analog II
speaker cables: SignalCable Ultra Speaker Cables Bi-wire -
Mike, you hit the nail squarely on the head as usual. I think they are missing a yellow Jackwagon in Namby Pambyland.Wow, juju! For someone that whines about name calling you sure don't have a problem casting stones. Sheesh! What a hypocrite. :rolleyes:
Fixed.Lets see if the mods will step in and ban me.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2800 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon MiND2 Shunyata Triton
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
How many flies need to be buzzing a dead horse before you guys stop beating it? -
Jinjuku please tell us why you are a member here.I could totally leave Club Polk on that note. Some of them actually do have clue ;-)
...Jinjuku on his Flickr account.
A really crappy thing to come here from another forum to simply stir the crap, and this comment proves this is your sole intent. You should have been banned a long time ago Juju.
Don't let that door hit you in the a$$ on the way out Jujubee.The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2800 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon MiND2 Shunyata Triton
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
How many flies need to be buzzing a dead horse before you guys stop beating it? -
I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.
Living Room: B&K Reference 5 S2 / Parasound HCA-1000A / Emotiva XDA-2 / Pioneer BDP-51FD / Paradigm 11se MKiii
Desk: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / ISK HD9999
Office: Schiit Magni 2 Uber / Schiit Modi 2 Uber / Dynaco SCA-80Q / Paradigm Legend V.3
HT: Denon AVR-X3400H / Sony UBP-X700 / RT16 / CS350LS / RT7 / SVS PB1000 -
If you're not hitting the wall with the PSU you aren't hitting the wall with the PSU.
Ummmm, yeah that sounds logical.:eek:
:rolleyes: The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2800 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon MiND2 Shunyata Triton
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
How many flies need to be buzzing a dead horse before you guys stop beating it? -
nooshinjohn wrote: »Ummmm, yeah that sounds logical.:eek::rolleyes:
You do understand that if an amp is not clipping, it's not clipping? That is no distortion. Which is a very viable reason why the OP didn't hear any difference between his Elite and the Sunfire?
You do understand that an amp is in part a power supply, right? If you aren't hitting it's voltage wall, you aren't hitting it's voltage wall. That is not clipping, then no distortion, which means the OP in this case didn't hear a difference between his elite and the sunfire. -
You do understand that if an amp is not clipping, it's not clipping?
LMAO!!! That is classic Juju signature material right there!:biggrin::rolleyes:
I understand all of that... but the way you put it together makes you sound like you are clueless yourself, and clipping was not the issue he was having in the first place. From your Flickr account, it is obvious that you have a high level of distain for CP and it's membership, so I will ask you the same thing Ben did... Why are you here?The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2800 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon MiND2 Shunyata Triton
“When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson
How many flies need to be buzzing a dead horse before you guys stop beating it? -
The bottle neck is using the Pioneer as a pre-amp. Get a dedicated pre-amp and you'll likely hear more improvement.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul! -
nooshinjohn wrote: »...Jinjuku on his Flickr account.
A really crappy thing to come here from another forum to simply stir the crap, and this comment proves this is your sole intent. You should have been banned a long time ago Juju.
Don't let that door hit you in the a$$ on the way out Jujubee.
I was laughing at everything that was being attributed to me. HP blamed ME for his ban when he got into his tussle with Mark. I found the lack of personal responsibility sad and funny at the same time.
My sole intent is to really let any new comers know about all their options. The OP got a bunch of advice in another thread here about how another amp was going to make a huge difference. Some people like H9 were actually cautioning against the more watts is better.
Not ONE person asked ANY thing about his current setup, room dimensions, seating distance. No one asked what receiver he was using. No one.
What volume levels do you listen at? Nope. What do you think is wrong with your current setup? No again.
No one explained to him that not everyone hears a difference between quality amps/amplification (which the Pioneer Elite falls into) when level matched and non-clipping.
Why you are stirring up old and settled waters really has me asking: What are YOU doing here? -
You do understand that if an amp is not clipping, it's not clipping? That is no distortion. Which is a very viable reason why the OP didn't hear any difference between his Elite and the Sunfire?
You do understand that an amp is in part a power supply, right? If you aren't hitting it's voltage wall, you aren't hitting it's voltage wall. That is not clipping, then no distortion, which means the OP in this case didn't hear a difference between his elite and the sunfire.
Wrong with a capital W. So distortion in an amp is only present when it's clipping? If it's not clipping then all levels of distortion for any given amp and topology are the same? That is so wrong, I don't even know where to begin.
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
You have absolutely no concept about such subject matter.
H9"Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
This discussion has been closed.