Phantom center for HT?

madmax
madmax Posts: 12,434
edited December 2010 in Electronics
Is a phantom center better or worse than a downsized dedicated center? What would I hear differently?
Vinyl, the final frontier...

Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
Post edited by madmax on
· Share on FacebookShare on Twitter

Comments

  • Conradicles
    Conradicles Posts: 6,372
    edited December 2010
    If you sit in the sweet spot you will be fine...but of axis listeners will suffer. That is what I have found on my brief journey.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • kawizx9r
    kawizx9r Posts: 5,150
    edited December 2010
    Worked great for some movies when I used a 'phantom' center with my SDA 1-C's. I swore I had a center channel, but sometimes the voices can be a bit overwhelmed because the stereo speakers are playing just that...a stereo track which will include explosions/front left+right surround effects.

    Some AVR's even have settings to help you create that Phantom center. All depends what you've got IMO.

    Personally? I'd just go with a center channel...preferably amplified externally.
    Truck setup
    Alpine 9856
    Phoenix Gold RSD65CS

    For Sale
    Polk SR6500
    Polk SR5250
    Polk SR104


    heiney9 wrote: »
    Any clue how to use the internet? Found it in about 10 sec.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 20,070
    edited December 2010
    Things may have changed since I was into HT but I will say this. It is nothing more than a gimmick that adds processing, loses bass/mid-bass output and offers a false sense of the scene. It has it's attributes but in the whole scheme of things, it's a waste....IMO.
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 33,077
    edited December 2010
    I run without one, can't really say it bothers me either. But your choice is to do without or run a weak center. Try it both ways, you may have to run that center hotter if it's not up to par with the rest of the front stage.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • bobman1235
    bobman1235 Posts: 10,822
    edited December 2010
    treitz3 wrote: »
    Things may have changed since I was into HT but I will say this. It is nothing more than a gimmick that adds processing, loses bass/mid-bass output and offers a false sense of the scene. It has it's attributes but in the whole scheme of things, it's a waste....IMO.

    Are you saying Phantom centers are a gimmick? Or that center channels are a gimmick?
    If you will it, dude, it is no dream.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Face
    Face Posts: 14,340
    edited December 2010
    With speakers that image well, a phantom can sound good. But a timber matched center will sound better.
    "He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And when you gaze long into an abyss the abyss also gazes into you." Friedrich Nietzsche
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • leroyjr1
    leroyjr1 Posts: 8,785
    edited December 2010
    Nothing like a dedicated center. The phantom doesn't compare, its a night and day difference.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • JimMueller
    JimMueller Posts: 100
    edited December 2010
    Ideally I want the dialog to come from the center of the screen, but my center sits below the screen due to physical restrictions. If I'm in the sweet spot, then phantom is preferable to me because the sound comes from the center of the screen instead of below the screen (which I find distracting). If I'm sitting outside the sweet spot, then I prefer to have the center channel enabled.

    [/BeginDream]
    It'd be nice if I could afford a projector & matching screen and be able to put a center directly behind an acoustically transparent projector screen.
    [/EndDream]
    Yamaha RX-2600 receiver, Nakamichi Dragon, Mitsubishi HS-U80 VCR, Pioneer DVL-90 LD Player, Sony BDP-S550 Blu-ray player, Sony CDP-X555ES CD player, Carver TFM-42, Carver AV-634, Panasonic TC-P54V10 plasma, BenQ W1070 PJ, Fisher MT-90 turntable, AKG-K340 headphones, Polk SDA-1C mains, CS-400i center, FX A4 surrounds, Rti A1 surround backs
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 20,070
    edited December 2010
    bobman1235 wrote: »
    Are you saying Phantom centers are a gimmick? Or that center channels are a gimmick?
    My apologies for not being precise in my explanation. Phantom centers.
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 5,324
    edited December 2010
    The center anchors the entire front soundstage & locks in the dialogue where it should be & just can't be replaced with a phantom center. Sure you'll get passable sound but you're cutting yourself short on the overall sound the way it was intended to be delivered. Timbre matched across the front is the best way to go.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • djperez81
    djperez81 Posts: 388
    edited December 2010
    pearsall001 wrote: »
    The center anchors the entire front soundstage & locks in the dialogue where it should be & just can't be replaced with a phantom center. Sure you'll get passable sound but you're cutting yourself short on the overall sound the way it was intended to be delivered. Timbre matched across the front is the best way to go.

    very well put... i would go with a center channel for sure.
    Music doesn't lie. If there is something to be changed in this world, then it can only happen through music.
    -Jimi Hendrix
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • inspiredsports
    inspiredsports Posts: 5,502
    edited December 2010
    JimMueller wrote: »
    Ideally I want the dialog to come from the center of the screen, but my center sits below the screen due to physical restrictions. If I'm in the sweet spot, then phantom is preferable to me because the sound comes from the center of the screen instead of below the screen (which I find distracting). If I'm sitting outside the sweet spot, then I prefer to have the center channel enabled.

    [/BeginDream]
    It'd be nice if I could afford a projector & matching screen and be able to put a center directly behind an acoustically transparent projector screen.
    [/EndDream]

    Or go over screen/under screen with 2 dedicated centers. You then need to locate the left and right tweeters on the horizontal line that intersects where the over/under speakers sound ouput centers vertically. When you get the geometry right, this is a superior option.
    VTL ST50 w/mods / RCA6L6GC / TlfnknECC801S
    Conrad Johnson PV-5 w/mods
    TT Conrad Johnson Sonographe SG3 Oak / Sumiko LMT / Grado Woodbody Platinum / Sumiko PIB2 / The Clamp
    Musical Fidelity A1 CDPro/ Bada DD-22 Tube CDP / Conrad Johnson SD-22 CDP
    Tuners w/mods Kenwood KT5020 / Fisher KM60
    MF x-DAC V8, HAInfo NG27
    Herbies Ti-9 / Vibrapods / MIT Shotgun AC1 IEC's / MIT Shotgun 2 IC's / MIT Shotgun 2 Speaker Cables
    PS Audio Cryo / PowerPort Premium Outlets / Exact Power EP15A Conditioner
    Walnut SDA 2B TL /Oak SDA SRS II TL (Sonicaps/Mills/Cardas/Custom SDA ICs / Dynamat Extreme / Larry's Rings/ FSB-2 Spikes
    NAD SS rigs w/mods
    GIK panels
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • John K.
    John K. Posts: 822
    edited December 2010
    Max, it can be better in some respects and worse in others. First, two advantages of a separate center speaker are that the center channel material is anchored in that center position for listeners off center and that the center channel output level can be increased independently of the level in the main speakers(since center channel dialog in some movies is mixed too low in relation to other sounds going on, boosting the center channel 3-4dB in those cases can help).

    Then, as to a "phantom" center, it should be kept in mind that we've listened to that for many years when we listen to 2-channel sources on two speakers. Vocalists, instrumentalists or other material intended to image near the center are about equal in level in the left and right speakers and naturally appear to be coming from the center for someone sitting close to the center. As the listener moves away from the center, that image moves out with him, but no farther than the speaker on that side. Even for multi-channel material with a separate center channel, no processing is involved other than simply sending that center material equally to the mains when the center speaker is set "none".

    One advantage of using the main speakers for this is that they're often simply better than the center speakers often used if the center isn't the same vertical speaker used for mains. This can give a better overall result other than the two advantages of the separate center speaker which were discussed above.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • mantis
    mantis Posts: 17,557
    edited December 2010
    pearsall001 wrote: »
    The center anchors the entire front soundstage & locks in the dialogue where it should be & just can't be replaced with a phantom center. Sure you'll get passable sound but you're cutting yourself short on the overall sound the way it was intended to be delivered. Timbre matched across the front is the best way to go.

    This is spot on. There is no reason to use a "downsized center" for any reason. If you don't have room for the correct matching center , make room. You are only hurting your experience.

    I hate Phantom center , it sucks ****. This is only if a center channel is out of the question.
    Dan
    My personal quest is to save to world of bad audio, one thread at a time.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • ViperZ
    ViperZ Posts: 2,046
    edited December 2010
    Dedicated center channel is a way to go... I am currently using "phantom center" with my HT, as the center channel speaker is packed, and even though my B&Ws have a great image, I still miss the center channel a lot. All dialogues come through that channel/speaker, so it's really important to have one.
    Btw, I'd try to get a matching center channel speaker. Maybe, put it on a separate angled center channel stand in front and dial-in the distance / level with AVR? That's what I did - my B&W CDM-CNT does not fit on the shelf (it's a huge / tall center).
    Regarding matching center: I used to have Polk RT1000p and Polk CS245 center. Everything was great and awesome, until I bought matching Polk CS400. The difference in the dialogue clarity was HUGE.
    Panasonic PT-AE4000U projector for movies
    Carada 106" Precision Series (Classic Cinema White)
    Denon AVR-X3600H pre/pro
    Outlaw 770 7-channel amplifier
    B&W CDM1-SE fronts
    B&W CDM-CNT center
    B&W CDM1 rears on MoPADs
    JBL SP8CII in-ceiling height speakers
    Samsung DTB-H260F OTA HDTV tuner
    DUAL NHT SubTwo subwoofers
    Oppo BDP-93 Blu-Ray player
    Belkin PF60 Power Center
    Harmony 1100 RF remote with RF extender
    Sony XBR-X950G 55" 4K HDR Smart TV + PS3 in the living room
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • JimMueller
    JimMueller Posts: 100
    edited December 2010
    inspiredsports wrote: »
    Or go over screen/under screen with 2 dedicated centers. You then need to locate the left and right tweeters on the horizontal line that intersects where the over/under speakers sound ouput centers vertically. When you get the geometry right, this is a superior option.
    I thought about doing that earlier this year. The front of the 1C's are 34" from the rear wall and I was trying to keep the center(s) the same distance. Didn't find a wall bracket which would allow the center to sit above the TV and extend that far. Plus, I like the ability of being able to walk between the equipment and the wall for re-wiring, etc... the bracket would be in the way for that convenience.
    Yamaha RX-2600 receiver, Nakamichi Dragon, Mitsubishi HS-U80 VCR, Pioneer DVL-90 LD Player, Sony BDP-S550 Blu-ray player, Sony CDP-X555ES CD player, Carver TFM-42, Carver AV-634, Panasonic TC-P54V10 plasma, BenQ W1070 PJ, Fisher MT-90 turntable, AKG-K340 headphones, Polk SDA-1C mains, CS-400i center, FX A4 surrounds, Rti A1 surround backs
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,434
    edited December 2010
    Lots of good info here! I will have a couple sets of main speakers so I'll try a pair of those as a center. Previously I was assuming only a phantom.
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • jayman_1975
    jayman_1975 Posts: 672
    edited December 2010
    I think it depends alot on the processor or receivers capability to do a phantom center. I have Monitor Audio GS 60's and the GS center channel. I cannot hear a difference at all when using the center channel or using phantom center, none whatsoever.
    Onkyo TX NR 5008 modified by The Upgrade Company
    Oppo BDP 93 modified by The Upgrade Company
    Arcam CD37
    Monitor Audio Gold GS 60
    Revolver Audio Music 5 towers.(surround)
    Vandersteen V2W
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • ben62670
    ben62670 Posts: 15,969
    edited December 2010
    I like my SDA's with no center. I get plenty of center stage with them. Having a center above or below throws things off IMHO.
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
    Ben
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • leroyjr1
    leroyjr1 Posts: 8,785
    edited December 2010
    ben62670 wrote: »
    I like my SDA's with no center. I get plenty of center stage with them. Having a center above or below throws things off IMHO.


    Still got the big boys?
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter
  • Joe08867
    Joe08867 Posts: 3,919
    edited December 2010
    Tried a Phantom and went right back to a dedicated center. Dialog suffered way to much without it.
    · Share on FacebookShare on Twitter