Emotiva DAC

24

Comments

  • cstmar01
    cstmar01 Posts: 4,424
    edited October 2010
    steveinaz wrote: »
    Do you enter a thread for any other reason than to stir **** up?


    Coke--
    For $229, the piece might be worth investigating, who knows until you try it, right? In preamp mode I'd be a little weary of how the digital volume control is implemented...

    Talk on the Emo forum is that it is supposed to "run circles" around the Benchmark DAC.

    Personally, for the price its going to have a draw back somewhere, be that SQ, build quality, parts used, parts not used, design, etc.

    I like the idea of having a DAC with a volume control, similar to a Wadia CDP with direct volume so you can run it straight to the amp, however with Emo's track record for pre amps, etc I would not try it this way as there are still problems to date with the UMC-1 and I would not personally like to have something go majorly wrong and have the volume shoot up to full blown and bust something. Not my idea of a good listening session.
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  • cstmar01
    cstmar01 Posts: 4,424
    edited October 2010
    ohskigod wrote: »
    I would say again that it shouldnt, but many strongly arguing that Emotiva is the best under the sun and outperforms everything (even though they never really a/b'd) it probably has made it that way.

    It has gotten to a point that if one even objectively mentions Emotiva it garners anger and frustration. things dont get to that point out of nowhere.

    there are ways to talk about products, and talk them up if you like them....without pissing everyone off. I will say, emphatically that many Emo fans didnt do it that way.

    here's some examples of speaking about a product that impressed you

    1) I recently bought an Emotiva amp and am quite surprised how well it performs, particularly for the money it cost in the new/retail market. I would be curious how well it performs against other higher level amps for the money, particularly in regards to the used market to see where the best bang for the buck is.


    2) I recently got an Emotiva amp, wow man, it rawks. 500 bucks and i bet it sounds better than a top of the line Mark Levinson any day of the week. Can't believe people are so dumb to buy expensive amps when they can just get the best right here for cheap.


    not all Emo fans went option 2, but it sure seemed like a lot did. thats what hapenned here, and when you say that any mention of Emotiva can be considerred argumentative.......that can very well be the case now. as I said, it's sad. i dont think Emotiva deserves that, I really don't.

    I think people that came here to talk them up did it in such a monumentally stupid way that it caused more harm than good to the company they are trying to help. Incidentally, I form my own opinions, and if i had to start a theater from the ground up, Emo would be on my list of possible gear as I like my theater to sound great, but is not my primary critical listening rig.

    Some will not agree with me on that, and thats cool. I respect there opinion, as they respect mine as wroking for me and my goals.


    Bingo.

    Well said, well said.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,432
    edited October 2010
    cstmar01 wrote: »
    Talk on the Emo forum is that it is supposed to "run circles" around the Benchmark DAC. .

    If it's many of the same talkers that stated other gear in the Emo line are giant killers.............then don't believe a word of it. I doubt very much about "run circles", what does that even mean?
    cstmar01 wrote: »
    Personally, for the price its going to have a draw back somewhere, be that SQ, build quality, parts used, parts not used, design, etc.

    I like the idea of having a DAC with a volume control, similar to a Wadia CDP with direct volume so you can run it straight to the amp, however with Emo's track record for pre amps, etc I would not try it this way as there are still problems to date with the UMC-1 and I would not personally like to have something go majorly wrong and have the volume shoot up to full blown and bust something. Not my idea of a good listening session.

    A cheap digital volume control can add a lot of noise and is lot less linear. I would steer clear of any budget product that incorporates all these features in a single inexpensive unit *IF* you are looking for faithful, accurate, linear sound reproduction.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • cstmar01
    cstmar01 Posts: 4,424
    edited October 2010
    heiney9 wrote: »
    If it's many of the same talkers that stated other gear in the Emo line are giant killers.............then don't believe a word of it. I doubt very much about "run circles", what does that even mean?



    A cheap digital volume control can add a lot of noise and is lot less linear. I would steer clear of any budget product that incorporates all these features in a single inexpensive unit *IF* you are looking for faithful, accurate, linear sound reproduction.

    H9

    You got me Brock. I read a lot about the product over there and that is what many where saying.

    I personally like the idea with a direct volume control, HOWEVER it must be well done as you stated, otherwise problems will be created.
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  • ohskigod
    ohskigod Posts: 6,505
    edited October 2010
    true, even a passive pre (in essence a volume knob) has to be done right, they make a difference.
    Living Room 2 Channel -
    Wiim Ultra. Jolida CD player. Fiio k11 R2R DAC, XTZ as300 Edge amp. Focal Cobalt 826 towers,

    Upstairs 2 Channel Rig -
    Classe Audio 5 Preamp, DIY1200as2 Icepower Amp x 2, Wiim pro streamer and Topping E70 Velvet DAC, California Audio Labs DX1 CD player, Polk LSi15's with MM840 woofer upgrade.

    Studio Rig - Scarlett 18i20(Gen3) DAW, Schitt Saga 2 preamp, Topping a90 headphone amp, Mac Mini, Audiophonics Hypex NC252m amp, Polk r200's
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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,545
    edited October 2010
    You can pack only so much technology in a $299 piece of equipment, so you have to be realistic in your expectations. The DAC section will likely be something that you see in any HTIB receiver--to think otherwise is being foolish--Emotiva is not in business to give stuff away.

    Having said that, it might be a good entry level system starter, office rig, patio rig--I would use it in those applications if I had a need. Not trying to be snob-****, I just don't want anyone to get their hopes up, as true "giant killers" are few and far between.
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Source: Rotel CD14MkII CD Player - Speakers: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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  • WilliamM2
    WilliamM2 Posts: 4,807
    edited October 2010
    steveinaz wrote: »
    You can pack only so much technology in a $229 piece of equipment, so you have to be realistic in your expectations.

    It's $299 according to the link. If it's anything like their other pre-orders, it won't actually ship for at least a year.
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  • cfrizz
    cfrizz Posts: 13,415
    edited October 2010
    ohskigod wrote: »
    ...I think people that came here to talk them up did it in such a monumentally stupid way that it caused more harm than good to the company they are trying to help. Incidentally, I form my own opinions, and if i had to start a theater from the ground up, Emo would be on my list of possible gear as I like my theater to sound great, but is not my primary critical listening rig.

    Some will not agree with me on that, and thats cool. I respect there opinion, as they respect mine as wroking for me and my goals.

    Note your use of the 'past tense' "came" Lou. Which is self explanatory since what some of you are complaining about has not happened in quite some time. When are you few going to let the PAST stay in the past?
    cstmar01 wrote: »
    Talk on the Emo forum is that it is supposed to "run circles" around the Benchmark DAC.

    Well what do you expect them to say in an Emotiva forum? But to then come back here and crap on them based on what was said in THEIR forum but not in ours is simply WRONG.

    If you don't like the product, then why bother going to their forum & then bringing your bad mood and opinions of the product back here?

    Again, some of you just need to let it go and ignore these threads if you have nothing good to say.
    Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2
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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,545
    edited October 2010
    oops. Sorry $299.
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Source: Rotel CD14MkII CD Player - Speakers: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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  • ohskigod
    ohskigod Posts: 6,505
    edited October 2010
    cfrizz wrote: »
    Note your use of the 'past tense' "came" Lou. Which is self explanatory since what some of you are complaining about has not happened in quite some time. When are you few going to let the PAST stay in the past?



    uh, if it was a few.....it wouldnt be that big of a problem. just sayin....lol
    Living Room 2 Channel -
    Wiim Ultra. Jolida CD player. Fiio k11 R2R DAC, XTZ as300 Edge amp. Focal Cobalt 826 towers,

    Upstairs 2 Channel Rig -
    Classe Audio 5 Preamp, DIY1200as2 Icepower Amp x 2, Wiim pro streamer and Topping E70 Velvet DAC, California Audio Labs DX1 CD player, Polk LSi15's with MM840 woofer upgrade.

    Studio Rig - Scarlett 18i20(Gen3) DAW, Schitt Saga 2 preamp, Topping a90 headphone amp, Mac Mini, Audiophonics Hypex NC252m amp, Polk r200's
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  • shack
    shack Posts: 11,154
    edited October 2010
    EMO gear is price point, entry level audio.

    You get what you pay for...no more...no less.

    Not a "giant killer"...not as good as gear "costing X times as much"...

    If you want average to good entry level audio gear at a nice price...EMO is for you.

    If you like it...even better.

    Just don't try to convince anyone it is something it isn't...AKA...High-end Audio.
    "Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you’re right." - Ricky Gervais

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase

    "Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson
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  • Ricardo
    Ricardo Posts: 10,636
    edited October 2010
    Just for **** & giggles....

    The benchmark DAC-PRE with remote control, manufactured in the U.S. is just a tad short of $1,900.
    We all know for sure that manufacturing the same unit in China, with similar components, will be cheaper.
    Let's assume you not only manufacture it in China, but also use lesser components, still under the same design.
    Maybe reduce your margin a bit.

    Is $299 not a possibility?
    _________________________________________________
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,432
    edited October 2010
    Ricardo wrote: »
    Just for **** & giggles....

    The benchmark DAC-PRE with remote control, manufactured in the U.S. is just a tad short of $1,900.
    We all know for sure that manufacturing the same unit in China, with similar components, will be cheaper.
    Let's assume you not only manufacture it in China, but also use lesser components, still under the same design.
    Maybe reduce your margin a bit.

    Is $299 not a possibility?

    No, I don't think so, and once you start using lesser components and cutting corners, the end musical quality can suffer quite a bit.

    There are some very nice Chinese built and designed gear for sure. One company I have extensive experience with is Dared. But it's still not as cheap dollar wise as other Chinese built stuff. Why? because they use higher quality parts, better assembly with better QC.

    I honestly don't think you can manufacture a Chinese piece on the same level as the Benchmark for $299. More realistically if you want very similar quality I'd guess $599-$799 for Chinese equivalent to the Benchmark. Still a significant savings.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • dkg999
    dkg999 Posts: 5,647
    edited October 2010
    At a $299 msrp in a direct sales model that means fully allocated costs are most likely in the $120 to $160 range, which would include manufacturing, transportation, R&D recovery, marketing/website cost allocation, etc. To keep the cost down they probably had to order a couple of container loads worth of units on the first production run. If their sales model doesn't hold up I would expect a sale price of $199 not to far down the road so they can churn their inventory dollars.
    DKG999
    HT System: LSi9, LSiCx2, LSiFX, LSi7, SVS 20-39 PC+, B&K 507.s2 AVR, B&K Ref 125.2, Tripplite LCR-2400, Cambridge 650BD, Signal Cable PC/SC, BJC IC, Samsung 55" LED

    Music System: Magnepan 1.6QR, SVS SB12+, ARC pre, Parasound HCA1500 vertically bi-amped, Jolida CDP, Pro-Ject RM5.1SE TT, Pro-Ject TubeBox SE phono pre, SBT, PS Audio DLIII DAC
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  • Ricardo
    Ricardo Posts: 10,636
    edited October 2010
    heiney9 wrote: »
    More realistically if you want very similar quality I'd guess $599-$799 for Chinese equivalent to the Benchmark. Still a significant savings.

    H9

    Ok. So that's 30ish %.

    Let's forget about the Benchmark pre with remote I picked. I realize that it also has analog inputs, and the EMO doesn't.

    The right comparison then would be the Benchmark DAC1, which has a volume control and no analog inputs. Priced at $995. So yeah, 30ish % is around $300ish.

    Based on this analogy, I just concluded that the EMO is equivalent to the highly regarded Benchmark DAC 1!!!!!
    _________________________________________________
    ***\\\\\........................... My Audio Journey ............................./////***

    2008 & 2010 Football Pool WINNER
    SOPA
    Thank God for different opinions. Imagine the world if we all wanted the same woman
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  • shack
    shack Posts: 11,154
    edited October 2010
    dkg999 wrote:
    At a $299 msrp in a direct sales model that means fully allocated costs are most likely in the $120 to $160 range, which would include manufacturing, transportation, R&D recovery, marketing/website cost allocation, etc.

    I doubt seriously that the Bencmark equivalent internal components ONLY could be had for for less than $350-$400 range at mfg cost. Then you have the chassis, casing, knobs, etc, etc...not to mention labor, packaging, shipping...
    "Just because you’re offended doesn’t mean you’re right." - Ricky Gervais

    "For those who believe, no proof is necessary. For those who don't believe, no proof is possible." - Stuart Chase

    "Consistency requires you to be as ignorant today as you were a year ago." - Bernard Berenson
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  • cstmar01
    cstmar01 Posts: 4,424
    edited October 2010
    cfrizz wrote: »
    Note your use of the 'past tense' "came" Lou. Which is self explanatory since what some of you are complaining about has not happened in quite some time. When are you few going to let the PAST stay in the past?



    Well what do you expect them to say in an Emotiva forum? But to then come back here and crap on them based on what was said in THEIR forum but not in ours is simply WRONG.

    If you don't like the product, then why bother going to their forum & then bringing your bad mood and opinions of the product back here?

    Again, some of you just need to let it go and ignore these threads if you have nothing good to say.


    Wow...you really don't know my mood at all.

    I just made a statement of what they stated. I did not start this thread, just giving what others who heard the said product gave as an opinion.

    I have used their products (a # of them) and think I'm more than entitled to have an opinion. If someone wants to buy it, thats great. But when said comparison is made to a DAC costing a bit more than said unit, like I said a compromise is made somewhere and I have a hard time beleiving that the unit would be exactly the same as the other.

    and what do I expect on their forum? to have an honest review of said product. To me when saying its better than a highly rated DAC it must be the deal of the century, in which case, once again, its hard to beleive if said DAC can have a profit on it, use as high if not higher quality parts, and still have the best SQ equal to if not better than the other companies.

    Just because I posted something that was taken from somewhere else doesn't mean anything. In that sense no one can post a review, no one can form an opinion on anything else, and no one really can link anything to another forum, thread, topic, internet site, post, etc.
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  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,432
    edited October 2010
    Ricardo wrote: »

    Based on this analogy, I just concluded that the EMO is equivalent to the highly regarded Benchmark DAC 1!!!!!

    Next time I come to visit I expect one of the Emo's front and center in your rig. Let's see Pass and Emo, almost the same.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited October 2010
    ricardo wrote: »
    based on this analogy, i just concluded that the emo is equivalent to the highly regarded benchmark dac 1!!!!!


    Super! LOL

    I'll just throw away my Accuphase and get EMO instead. I don't need a preamp either.

    :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,545
    edited October 2010
    Yeah, and a kia drives just like a Mercedes.
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Source: Rotel CD14MkII CD Player - Speakers: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 25,922
    edited October 2010
    megasat16 wrote: »
    Super! LOL

    I'll just throw away my Accuphase and get EMO instead. I don't need a preamp either.

    :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D



    Don't toss them out like that man... I will even pay the shipping for you to send them my way. Hell, I will even buy you the EMO and have it shipped to you, so you won't be out of pocket one dime.:p:D;)
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Mcintosh C2800 Arcam AVR20, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Simaudio Moon MiND2 Shunyata Triton

    “When once a Republic is corrupted, there is no possibility of remedying any of the growing evils but by removing the corruption and restoring its lost principles; every other correction is either useless or a new evil.”— Thomas Jefferson

    How many flies need to be buzzing a dead horse before you guys stop beating it?
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited October 2010
    steveinaz wrote: »
    Do you enter a thread for any other reason than to stir **** up?


    No, it's to protect the new people showing up here that would otherwise give you ridiculous few any credit.

    Maybe when the new person sees the same people bashing Emotiva thread after thread they will quickly figure it out (Just like Cathy and Myself).
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  • polkfarmboy
    polkfarmboy Posts: 5,703
    edited October 2010
    I was checking out the emo forum last night and there is a thread saying 'post pictures of your emo gear here " .Some of them boys on that forum have realy nice high end speakers paired up with every piece of equipment emo has had to offer

    The DAC that will be released should be alot better than any HTIB dac I think plus parts get cheaper every year so I think it might turn out to be a good product . Look at the dac magic? It has a $450 price point and its is supposed to be a nice piece of equipment

    Lets all put in $20 and buy one to pass around the forum
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  • cokewithvanilla
    cokewithvanilla Posts: 1,777
    edited October 2010
    Wow. Apparently this thread went a long way since I started it. It seems all the good stuff was deleted ;). I hope you all know that I never start threads to make people mad. I dunno how this would could be construed as such, unless Emotiva is just a really touchy subject.

    I hope I didn't give the idea that I was considering the Emotiva unit (i'm a big fan of buying used to make it seem like I got a deal :) ). I was just asking for thoughts on the subject (mainly, do you think this can be any good). The biggest killer for me is they combined a DAC and preamp. I think I would avoid it for that sole reason, unless the pre can be completely bypassed.

    I've noticed that there has been a lot of speculation about it being cheap walmart crap. This could be completely true. However, no one has given any technical reasons as why this should be the case (I remember when their ref CDP came out, someone simply mentioned that it didn't have ref specs). Is the burr brown stuff inside junk (I have no idea)?

    I didn't read this, but it looks like there is some information for people who know more than I here, http://emonatics.com/XDA-1.shtml does that help for a quality judgment, or not?

    edit:
    Lets all put in $20 and buy one to pass around the forum
    that's a cool idea for a lot of cheaper gear that everyone wants try to but no one wants to buy. I'd go for it.
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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,545
    edited October 2010
    It's like Shack stated; you pretty much get what you pay for. There is alot more to it than just component selection. I think Emotiva's approach is to appeal to buyers with solid construction, rugged looks, and price-proportionate performance. For $299, buy it and try it.
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Source: Rotel CD14MkII CD Player - Speakers: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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  • megasat16
    megasat16 Posts: 3,521
    edited October 2010
    polkfarmboy wrote: »

    Lets all put in $20 and buy one to pass around the forum

    Thanks but NO! Been there! Done that before! And worse $20 I ever spent. I would just donate my $20 to the ones in need this Thanksgiving. Bottom line is I don't think it makes any difference to what people thinks about Emotiva. :)
    Trying out Different Audio Cables is a Religious Affair. You don't discuss it with anyone. :redface::biggrin:
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  • cokewithvanilla
    cokewithvanilla Posts: 1,777
    edited October 2010
    steveinaz wrote: »
    It's like Shack stated; you pretty much get what you pay for. There is alot more to it than just component selection. I think Emotiva's approach is to appeal to buyers with solid construction, rugged looks, and price-proportionate performance. For $299, buy it and try it.

    Yes, I think they do go for solid build and good looks to give the impression of quality. I am hesitant to judge anything simply on price. If more expensive was always better, we wouldn't have much talk on this forum.

    Like I said, unless the pre can be bypassed, it is unlikely for me to purchase this thing. I think H9 is right in saying that it could add a lot of problems. Besides, I'd hate to have two volume controls.
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  • jinjuku
    jinjuku Posts: 1,523
    edited October 2010
    cokewithvanilla wrote: »
    I've noticed that there has been a lot of speculation about it being cheap walmart crap. This could be completely true.

    H9 didn't say walmart, he was speaking to the DAC Magic using a 12 VDC wall transformer.

    If that is a concern (regulated power) then use the best regulated power supply out there: A 12v battery.

    You could pick up a car battery and run the DAC Magic for most likely 50 hours if my math is right.
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  • cokewithvanilla
    cokewithvanilla Posts: 1,777
    edited October 2010
    jinjuku wrote: »
    H9 didn't say walmart, he was speaking to the DAC Magic using a 12 VDC wall transformer.

    .

    sorry, I read the whole thread in just a couple minutes. aside from the walmart reference, it seems the general consensus is that it is going to be junk. I was just hoping for more insight as to why. Anyone can say "it's too cheap to be good", but it takes someone smarter than me to say why (like the Emo CDP thing).

    edit: i may have also gotten that from "they are the walmart of hifi" :P
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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,545
    edited October 2010
    NOT junk, just a typical $299 DAC. There's no free rides bubba.
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Source: Rotel CD14MkII CD Player - Speakers: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
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