Sealed cabinets?

Bobsama
Bobsama Posts: 526
edited May 2010 in Vintage Speakers
I noted a few days ago that my cabinets don't seem completely sealed. I have a pair of Monitor 5 Series 2's, and it seems that, if I depress the passive radiator, the midwoofer will bulge out and then return to its normal position. I'm guessing it's not supposed to do this in the span of ~5 seconds. Is it?

Anyways, I took apart the cabinet to investigate a bit. I noted that at least some of the screwholes go entirely through the cabinet. Would it be wise to reseal the cabinets?

And the other thing. Is that filler material supposed to be rolled up and just tossed in there? TBH I didn't expect it to be like that; rather, that it should have been fitted against the back wall or something.
polkaudio Monitor 5 Series II
polkaudio SDA-1 (with the SL1000)
TEAC AG-H300 MK III stereo receiver
beyerdynamic DT-880 Premium (600 Ω) headphones
SENNHEISER HD-555 headphones
Little Dot MK IV tube headphone amp
Little Dot DAC_I balanced D/A converter
Post edited by Bobsama on
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Comments

  • DaveHo
    DaveHo Posts: 3,582
    edited May 2010
    I think 5 seconds is fine. That's about how long it takes for my 12Cs to return. The fiber fill should be mostly behind the MW driver & extend down to behind the passive.
  • Bobsama
    Bobsama Posts: 526
    edited May 2010
    DaveHo wrote: »
    I think 5 seconds is fine. That's about how long it takes for my 12Cs to return. The fiber fill should be mostly behind the MW driver & extend down to behind the passive.

    It's not. It's sort of rolled up behind the mid and extends up to the tweeter. It almost looks like it's hanging off the wires from the crossover and it's not even left-right behind the passive (hanging off more towards the right), and not filling the bottom part of the chamber.

    In other news, found the speakers were made in September 1991.
    polkaudio Monitor 5 Series II
    polkaudio SDA-1 (with the SL1000)
    TEAC AG-H300 MK III stereo receiver
    beyerdynamic DT-880 Premium (600 Ω) headphones
    SENNHEISER HD-555 headphones
    Little Dot MK IV tube headphone amp
    Little Dot DAC_I balanced D/A converter
  • zingo
    zingo Posts: 11,258
    edited May 2010
    5 seconds is acceptable if I remember right as I think you want anything over 3. Sealed cabinets are not 100% sealed as you do have losses out of dustcaps, driver seals, etc. If you want to replace the original gaskets with a product like Mortite, feel free to as it may improve the seals, as well as it will improve the drivers interaction with the cabinet.

    You can unroll the filling easily move it if you think it necessary.
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 51,685
    edited May 2010
    5 seconds indicates that your cabinets are well sealed. Do NOT put any of the poly fill behind the PR. The ploy fill should be rolled up behind the tweeter(s) and mid-driver(s), not on the back wall.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited May 2010
    Jesse is right on. I found my 1.2 TLs sounding muddy when I first got them and powered them up. The polyfill had slipped down behind the PR and it sounded like ****. I placed it behind the tweeters and MWs and it sounded perfect.
  • Bobsama
    Bobsama Posts: 526
    edited May 2010
    F1nut wrote: »
    5 seconds indicates that your cabinets are well sealed. Do NOT put any of the poly fill behind the PR. The ploy fill should be rolled up behind the tweeter(s) and mid-driver(s), not on the back wall.

    Ok. Is there any particular shaping I want for the filler material? As I said it was pretty much rolled up behind the MW. Felt pretty heavy (or at least stiff); a few pounds at least.
    polkaudio Monitor 5 Series II
    polkaudio SDA-1 (with the SL1000)
    TEAC AG-H300 MK III stereo receiver
    beyerdynamic DT-880 Premium (600 Ω) headphones
    SENNHEISER HD-555 headphones
    Little Dot MK IV tube headphone amp
    Little Dot DAC_I balanced D/A converter
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 51,685
    edited May 2010
    Yeah, rolled up like it came from the factory.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • Bobsama
    Bobsama Posts: 526
    edited May 2010
    Ok. I'll see about some of that rope caulk sealant, to replace the foam seals on the Monitor 5's and perhaps on the bass chamber of the SDA-1's too. I don't think that sealing the midwoofer chambers will have any effect; they're already ported.
    polkaudio Monitor 5 Series II
    polkaudio SDA-1 (with the SL1000)
    TEAC AG-H300 MK III stereo receiver
    beyerdynamic DT-880 Premium (600 Ω) headphones
    SENNHEISER HD-555 headphones
    Little Dot MK IV tube headphone amp
    Little Dot DAC_I balanced D/A converter
  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited May 2010
    Bobsama wrote: »
    Ok. I'll see about some of that rope caulk sealant, to replace the foam seals on the Monitor 5's and perhaps on the bass chamber of the SDA-1's too. I don't think that sealing the midwoofer chambers will have any effect; they're already ported.

    Unless I'm missing something there is no port. They use passive radiators which will greatly benefit from the sealer. I have all my midwoofer and PRs sealed on my 1.2TLs.
  • Bobsama
    Bobsama Posts: 526
    edited May 2010
    Unless I'm missing something there is no port. They use passive radiators which will greatly benefit from the sealer. I have all my midwoofer and PRs sealed on my 1.2TLs.

    Original SDA-1's; they're actually a different cabinet from your familiar SDA-1A's and 1B's.

    attachment.php?attachmentid=42826&d=1251393432
    attachment.php?attachmentid=42830&d=1251393515
    polkaudio Monitor 5 Series II
    polkaudio SDA-1 (with the SL1000)
    TEAC AG-H300 MK III stereo receiver
    beyerdynamic DT-880 Premium (600 Ω) headphones
    SENNHEISER HD-555 headphones
    Little Dot MK IV tube headphone amp
    Little Dot DAC_I balanced D/A converter
  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited May 2010
    Bob, are you the oringinal owner? Are you sure they aren't DIY ports as those holes completely defeat the passive radiator design?
  • Bobsama
    Bobsama Posts: 526
    edited May 2010
    No, I'm not the original owner. However, I am entirely sure. Here's a (crude) picture of the original booklets. I have the original boxes downstairs, as well.

    attachment.php?attachmentid=42827&d=1251393432
    polkaudio Monitor 5 Series II
    polkaudio SDA-1 (with the SL1000)
    TEAC AG-H300 MK III stereo receiver
    beyerdynamic DT-880 Premium (600 Ω) headphones
    SENNHEISER HD-555 headphones
    Little Dot MK IV tube headphone amp
    Little Dot DAC_I balanced D/A converter
  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited May 2010
    Wow, I learn something new every day. Thanks Bob!

    Hmmm . . . just another thought from this doubting Thomas, is there a sealed barrier between the tweeters and the MW/PR section of the cabinet?
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 51,685
    edited May 2010
    Joe, there's even a Signature SDA 1 edition that has a brass plate, which covers up the holes.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • Bobsama
    Bobsama Posts: 526
    edited May 2010
    Wow, I learn something new every day. Thanks Bob!

    Hmmm . . . just another thought from this doubting Thomas, is there a sealed barrier between the tweeters and the MW/PR section of the cabinet?

    Sealed? I'm not 100% sure if they're as sealed as the rest of the cabinets. The cables to the top MW's & tweeters went through a small hole with a plastic cover (iirc; I've not looked inside in almost a year). I didn't check if that bit is fully sealed, but yes they are quite separated. It's probably as good a seal as possible without making repairs impractical. I don't remember their "recoil" from depressing the passive radiator, though the two bottom BW's did extrude. I seem to remember them actually taking longer to return to original position than the M5's (>5s from ~1/2" depression of PR & extrusion of BW's to return to "resting" position).

    There's also a second barrier between the stereo and dimensional drivers, which is why both chambers are ported.

    If you look at the SDA-1A Signature conversion mod, here's what it says in short... iirc that is.

    1) Remove all drivers
    2) Saw/whatever through the barrier between the T&MW's and the PR&BW's, removed to <1" remaining around. The barrier between the T&MW's section can remain
    3) Open the holes for the tweeters; the SL1000's have the same dimensions as the original Peerless tweeters and are smaller than the SL2000's and later tweeters.
    4) Modify the crossover and change a few components with those of a different values
    5) Remove the BW section of the crossover and wire the BW's to their respective channels; the inner BW to the stereo and the outer to the dimensional woofer.
    6) Plug the ports between the MWs & Tweeters. The original kit also included a small plate to cover the plugs and declared them as SDA-1A Signature's

    The original kit was not meant for my loudspeakers; according to that little instruction manual booklet, they're MW7501's and MW7502's (iirc). As you can see in the rear picture, the SDA cable as well is different from later versions; that's actually based on a 3-pin plug and socket with only 2 physical pins and the biwire as shown.

    When I purchased the SDA-1's, the tweeter fuses were actually blown. In addition, one of the tweeters also bit the dust, and was replaced about a week or two later. I'm willing to trade that Peerless tweeter for another pair of SL1000's.

    I've heard the SDA-CRS+'s, SRS 1.2TL's, and my own SDA-1's. Of the three, I preferred the SDA-1's as they were the correct size for the room and very balanced overall. The CRS+'s were a bit shier on the bass (probably since I had them setup too far from the wall) and the 1.2TL's were overpowering in the room. The latter 1.2TL's were listened to in a similar room though aligned differently, and the CRS+'s were heard in both.

    @F1nut:
    The Signature edition's brass plate was to hide the wooden plugs. The speakers sounded the same either way, but the brass plate was nice decoration. Too bad they don't have any more; I wouldn't mind a pair if I ever do convert these beauties. I don't think I will, though. Other than being a bit less smooth than other tweeters and not ear as bright as the SL2000's, I haven't noticed the "it's behind you!" effect from the tweeters. I did have the HT setup, temporarily, with the SDA-1's as front L/R, a cheap Sony center channel (I wonder if there's a way to map the center channel to the SDA's...), and the M5's as L/R surrounds. Sounded pretty good and I liked that bass came from all directions, even though explosions were from the front (and shook the china cabinets).
    polkaudio Monitor 5 Series II
    polkaudio SDA-1 (with the SL1000)
    TEAC AG-H300 MK III stereo receiver
    beyerdynamic DT-880 Premium (600 Ω) headphones
    SENNHEISER HD-555 headphones
    Little Dot MK IV tube headphone amp
    Little Dot DAC_I balanced D/A converter
  • Bobsama
    Bobsama Posts: 526
    edited May 2010
    One more side-note... here's more (older) pictures.

    http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1140246&postcount=70
    http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/537/1041741g.jpg
    http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/6227/1041745.jpg

    I get back home in ~2.5 weeks and I'll take more pictures with my new camera then. The loudspeakers are still in pretty-darn-good condition. I counted three bits of damage; the inner-side wood is sun-bleached and the right channel cabinet has lost a bit of wood at the very bottom; looks like someone dragged the corners over carpet or concrete and took off a bit. Either way, they both stand tall and level, so I'm not worried over any of that damage. Other than that, I'm going to ID all of the woofers since the random woofer I pulled was an MW6600X (a replacement model I think).

    I'm thinking of swapping cabinets so that the sun-bleached sides are a bit less visible (on the outside sides). I'll grab that rope sealant from Home Depot or Lowe's before I dis&reassemble the cabinets.
    polkaudio Monitor 5 Series II
    polkaudio SDA-1 (with the SL1000)
    TEAC AG-H300 MK III stereo receiver
    beyerdynamic DT-880 Premium (600 Ω) headphones
    SENNHEISER HD-555 headphones
    Little Dot MK IV tube headphone amp
    Little Dot DAC_I balanced D/A converter
  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited May 2010
    Thanks for all the info Bob. I didn't know that those particular SDAs existed in that form. If Raife has them in his 2nd Edition Comendium, I really missed.

    They really do have a "cool" looking factor to them.

    Isn't that "behind you" effect cool? I have original SDA CRSs and they have the dimentional tweeters and that "flying over head," "come from behind" sound is really fun to listen to.
  • Bobsama
    Bobsama Posts: 526
    edited May 2010
    Thanks for all the info Bob. I didn't know that those particular SDAs existed in that form. If Raife has them in his 2nd Edition Comendium, I really missed.

    They really do have a "cool" looking factor to them.

    Isn't that "behind you" effect cool? I have original SDA CRSs and they have the dimentional tweeters and that "flying over head," "come from behind" sound is really fun to listen to.

    You're quite welcome. I feel that they're a diamond in the rough. I actually paid $325 for them; a touch high but I was lucky to be looking when they came up. It was either $325 or waiting 1+ year trying to find another satisfactory pair of SDA's. To this date, I've not seen another pair of SDA-1's or CRS's appear on Craigslist, no matter the version. A few SDA-2's and a single pair of 1.2TL's. They can use a bit of work, but I'm hesitant about modding them too much or upgrading them. I'll probably just buy another pair of loudspeakers instead of changing these; a later pair of SDA-1's perhaps.
    polkaudio Monitor 5 Series II
    polkaudio SDA-1 (with the SL1000)
    TEAC AG-H300 MK III stereo receiver
    beyerdynamic DT-880 Premium (600 Ω) headphones
    SENNHEISER HD-555 headphones
    Little Dot MK IV tube headphone amp
    Little Dot DAC_I balanced D/A converter
  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 26,945
    edited May 2010
    F1nut wrote: »
    Joe, there's even a Signature SDA 1 edition that has a brass plate, which covers up the holes.

    I have a pair of those Signature SDA1's. The holes are filled with a wooden rod and glued on the inside and the plate covers the filled holes. On mine there is no inner chamber behind the mid-woofer's just the inside of the cabinet.:D
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 25,406
    edited May 2010
    Bob, are you the oringinal owner? Are you sure they aren't DIY ports as those holes completely defeat the passive radiator design?

    Joe, those are early SDA 1's and they came with the ports. Later the Signature Ed SDA 1's had a plaque over the ports. Later on it was decided the ports weren't needed. Either Stu or Matt Polk explained this in a thread somewhere in the archives of CP :)

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass Pass Labs XA25 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Supreme DAC | MIT Shotgun S1 | Puritan Audio PSM136 Pwr Condtioner & Classic PC's | Legend L600 | Roon Nucleus 1 w/LPS - Tubes add soul!
  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited May 2010
    heiney9 wrote: »
    Joe, those are early SDA 1's and they came with the ports. Later the Signature Ed SDA 1's had a plaque over the ports. Later on it was decided the ports weren't needed. Either Stu or Matt Polk explained this in a thread somewhere in the archives of CP :)

    H9

    Thank you Sir. I find this very interesting.
  • Bobsama
    Bobsama Posts: 526
    edited May 2010
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    I have a pair of those Signature SDA1's. The holes are filled with a wooden rod and glued on the inside and the plate covers the filled holes. On mine there is no inner chamber behind the mid-woofer's just the inside of the cabinet.:D

    Here's a question: do your 1A Signatures still have a partition between the two tweeters and the top pair of midwoofers? I'm curious--I haven't actually looked through the 1A Conversion guide in about 9 months.

    I'll be a happy man if I can find a pair of SDA-1A's for sale, if for nothing else than curiosity.
    polkaudio Monitor 5 Series II
    polkaudio SDA-1 (with the SL1000)
    TEAC AG-H300 MK III stereo receiver
    beyerdynamic DT-880 Premium (600 Ω) headphones
    SENNHEISER HD-555 headphones
    Little Dot MK IV tube headphone amp
    Little Dot DAC_I balanced D/A converter
  • hearingimpared
    hearingimpared Posts: 21,136
    edited May 2010
    Bobsama wrote: »
    Here's a question: do your 1A Signatures still have a partition between the two tweeters and the top pair of midwoofers? I'm curious--I haven't actually looked through the 1A Conversion guide in about 9 months.

    I'll be a happy man if I can find a pair of SDA-1A's for sale, if for nothing else than curiosity.

    1Cs will make you happier!;)
  • comfortablycurt
    comfortablycurt Posts: 6,745
    edited May 2010
    Even with the port, the Mortite rope caulk mod will make an improvement.

    I recently applied rope caulk to my SDA's, and have been staggered by the improvements.

    The cabinets don't really seem any more air tight...the PR press test still comes out to basically the same amount of time. Bass response is much better.

    The rope caulk mod isn't really about sealing the cabinets better. It's about coupling the drivers to the baffles more efficiently. Do it! It'll make a difference!!
    The nirvana inducer-
    APC H10 Power Conditioner
    Marantz UD5005 universal player
    Parasound Halo P5 preamp
    Parasound HCA-1200II power amp
    PolkAudio LSi9's/PolkAudio SDA 2A's/PolkAudio Monitor 7A's
    Audioquest Speaker Cables and IC's
  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 26,945
    edited May 2010
    Bobsama wrote: »
    Here's a question: do your 1A Signatures still have a partition between the two tweeters and the top pair of midwoofers? I'm curious--I haven't actually looked through the 1A Conversion guide in about 9 months.

    I'll be a happy man if I can find a pair of SDA-1A's for sale, if for nothing else than curiosity.

    yes Bob they still have the partition between the two. I bought mine for 100.00 from a pawn store. They were in good shape cabinet wise but some fool tried to re-wire the innards by running new wires from the stereo side to the dimensional side and wiring the dimensional side out of phase. the dimensional X-over wires were just laying inside the cabinet. I cut the hack job re-wired the way it was meant to be. They sounded pretty good but the SL1000 tweeters have a unpleasent sizzle and one of the dimensional tweeters was dead. One of these days I will re-cap the X-overs and get some rdo-194s to replace the SL1000's.
  • Bobsama
    Bobsama Posts: 526
    edited May 2010
    pitdogg2 wrote: »
    yes Bob they still have the partition between the two. I bought mine for 100.00 from a pawn store. They were in good shape cabinet wise but some fool tried to re-wire the innards by running new wires from the stereo side to the dimensional side and wiring the dimensional side out of phase. the dimensional X-over wires were just laying inside the cabinet. I cut the hack job re-wired the way it was meant to be. They sounded pretty good but the SL1000 tweeters have a unpleasent sizzle and one of the dimensional tweeters was dead. One of these days I will re-cap the X-overs and get some rdo-194s to replace the SL1000's.

    When I last listened to the SL1000's in those cabinets, I found the tweeters to be pretty smooth overall. Different sound than SL2500's and SL3000's, but mine weren't particularly grainy. If I ever get a chance, I'll hook mine up to a old McIntosh tube amp (think: MC225, 240, or 275).

    I thought ALL SDA-1(A) Signature's had SL2000 tweeters.:confused: Or, prior to the SL2000's, was there as SL1000 version of the Signature?
    polkaudio Monitor 5 Series II
    polkaudio SDA-1 (with the SL1000)
    TEAC AG-H300 MK III stereo receiver
    beyerdynamic DT-880 Premium (600 Ω) headphones
    SENNHEISER HD-555 headphones
    Little Dot MK IV tube headphone amp
    Little Dot DAC_I balanced D/A converter
  • pitdogg2
    pitdogg2 Posts: 26,945
    edited May 2010
    Bobsama wrote: »
    When I last listened to the SL1000's in those cabinets, I found the tweeters to be pretty smooth overall. Different sound than SL2500's and SL3000's, but mine weren't particularly grainy. If I ever get a chance, I'll hook mine up to a old McIntosh tube amp (think: MC225, 240, or 275).

    I thought ALL SDA-1(A) Signature's had SL2000 tweeters.:confused: Or, prior to the SL2000's, was there as SL1000 version of the Signature?


    well i would say without a doubt there was mine are all original in the tweeter department. there are two MW drivers that may of been switched out I say this only because 2 have white paper and different dates and all the rest have black paper and gold writing. One of the fuse holders was also changed.
  • Bobsama
    Bobsama Posts: 526
    edited May 2010
    F1nut wrote: »
    5 seconds indicates that your cabinets are well sealed. Do NOT put any of the poly fill behind the PR. The ploy fill should be rolled up behind the tweeter(s) and mid-driver(s), not on the back wall.

    Any particular way to secure the poly-fill? I checked the other cabinet and the filler slipped all the way down; it was hanging on the XO wires. I'm doing the mortite mod now on the M5-II's.
    polkaudio Monitor 5 Series II
    polkaudio SDA-1 (with the SL1000)
    TEAC AG-H300 MK III stereo receiver
    beyerdynamic DT-880 Premium (600 Ω) headphones
    SENNHEISER HD-555 headphones
    Little Dot MK IV tube headphone amp
    Little Dot DAC_I balanced D/A converter
  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 51,685
    edited May 2010
    I've never had to consider a way to secure the poly fill. I guess a spot of glue here and there might do the trick.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


    President of Club Polk

  • zingo
    zingo Posts: 11,258
    edited May 2010
    A shallow staple?