"Separation Issues" With the RTi12's...

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

Let me work on it...

BTW, Menasor, I see you don't have any Polk stuff in your setup...did you used to?

Yeah I started my journey with an RTi10, CSi5, BIC H100 setup. Then I moved on to the RTi A5, CSi A6, SVS PC12-NSD. Since then I've moved on to the Energy RC's that I have now. Loved the Polks when I had them!

A couple pics from my Polk days






(never did get a pic with the CSi5 in there )



(this is the Energy setup now...)

Thanks! Heh the Sony's only 46". I've been itching to get a 55" LED. That'll be my next upgrade! I have an Onkyo 705. Yeah my L/R's are about 7' apart right now. I'm about 10' back from the screen. Since this photo, I've tilted my center up a bit and gone to a little more toe in with my mains to get rid of a little bit of early deflection from the right side wall. My mains could probably be up to 3' farther apart and would still sound good, but I don't have the room.

Menasor wrote: »

Thanks! Heh the Sony's only 46". I've been itching to get a 55" LED. That'll be my next upgrade! I have an Onkyo 705. Yeah my L/R's are about 7' apart right now. I'm about 10' back from the screen. Since this photo, I've tilted my center up a bit and gone to a little more toe in with my mains to get rid of a little bit of early deflection from the right side wall. My mains could probably be up to 3' farther apart and would still sound good, but I don't have the room.

Nice setup, man. I used to have the Onkyo 705, and it's a freakin' sweet receiver. I'd still be using mine, but I stepped up to the TX-NR1007 recently and went 9.2 surround.

As far as speaker placement goes, Mike, it's less about the width between them than it is the angles from the center listening position. Check Dolby's site for the prescribed angles:
http://www.dolby.com/consumer/setup/speaker-setup-guide/index.html

I'm running mine fairly wide out by necessity, because I'm running a 100" projector screen, with a pair of RTi70s toed in a bit. Still, the dispersion pattern of Polks is typically very wide, so you're probably not going to have an issue with sound reaching all the seats. The issue you may have if you don't toe them in a bit, however, will be sidewall reflections that can play hell with the sound. In a dedicated theater, you can use acoustic panels at the reflection points (and there are some clever ways of having panels that look like artwork if you poke around), but in a living room HT, you're probably going to want to toe the speakers in a bit. My nefarious advice: DO IT GRADUALLY. I find that people tend to not notice if things move very slightly over time. I moved a couch off of the back wall like a half-inch at a time over a month until it was a foot from the back wall... and not a single person ever said a thing.

just play some music already........

Mike, if you have 3 1/2 feet between the speakers and the screen what is the issue?

You're too far away from a 50" screen. Maximum distance to fully resolve 1080p with that screen size is 6.5 feet. See:
http://myhometheater.homestead.com/viewingdistancecalculator.html
http://hd.engadget.com/2006/12/09/1080p-charted-viewing-distance-to-screen-size/
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hitech/1137/maxing-out-resolution.html
http://www.hdtvreviewlab.com/hdtv-screen-size
http://www.lcd-hdtv.org/lcd-hdtv-guides/optimal-screen-size-viewing-distance

Not really much debate to be had there - everyone goes by SMPTE standards. But if that's what you have to work with, roll with it. For 11.5' from the screen, you'd need a minimum of an 85" screen to fully resolve 1080p.

kuntasensei wrote: »

why do i get the feeling that you're going to stress so much over all this stuff that you'll never be happy with it? Seriously, mike... Hook it up, give it a listen. People can throw theory at you all day long (and you've been given a ton of excellent advice), but in the end, you gotta get 'em in the room and hooked up before you can start tweaking.

Don't stress! Very few rooms have perfect placement, so you have to make some compromises. Get it all hooked up, give yourself some time to live with the sound of it (and break the speakers in a bit), then once you've made some critical assessments based on material you're familiar with, you'll have a better idea of how to tailor your system to suit you. And then if you have any issues, we can help you address them.

+1000000000000

Mike, you are really worrying about this too much.

I just checked over the dimensions that you posted, and that sounds just fine. Absolutely, positively fine. Personally, I wouldn't even really want the front l/r to be any closer to the sides of the screen.

You seem to be under the impression that you want the l/r speakers flanking the screen directly on either side. This REALLY is not the case. You soundstage is going to sound VASTLY better with more separation. I know you already said that you didn't want to, but you are really going to need to play around with toe in. I've owned RTi's, and I've found them to always sound much better with at least a little toe in. It really helps to merge them with the center channel, and makes for a great soundstage.

Given those dimensions, the speakers could even stand to be another foot or two apart IMO. The distance from the edge of the screen to the speaker is basically irrelevant, since you have the center channel in between the two anyway. The RTi's have a fairly wide dispersion pattern, which is one of the things that makes them such great HT speakers.

kuntasensei wrote: »

Why do I get the feeling that you're going to stress so much over all this stuff that you'll never be happy with it? Seriously, Mike... hook it up, give it a listen. People can throw theory at you all day long (and you've been given a ton of excellent advice), but in the end, you gotta get 'em in the room and hooked up before you can start tweaking.

Don't stress! Very few rooms have perfect placement, so you have to make some compromises. Get it all hooked up, give yourself some time to live with the sound of it (and break the speakers in a bit), then once you've made some critical assessments based on material you're familiar with, you'll have a better idea of how to tailor your system to suit you. And then if you have any issues, we can help you address them.

Another +1000000000000 on that.

We can talk theory all day long...but you really need to get it hooked up and get some listening in. Like I said before...forget about waiting for the cabinet. Get that gear hooked up at least temporarily so you can check it out. I find it amazing that you haven't yet. When I get a new piece of gear, I can't wait to check it out, and I do as soon as I receive it.

Like I said...get that Onkyo setup on the floor, and at least hook up the 12's and get a feel for them in 2 channel mode.




You're really worrying about this too much. As Kunta said...hardly any of our listening areas/HT's are perfect listening environments. Things like having the cabinet in between your speakers for instance. Is having it there a bad thing? Yes...of course it is. It's a giant object sitting between your two speakers. However, I'd hazard a guess that the vast majority of us having some kind of shelf/cabinet/floorstanding TV etc. in between our speakers. I've got a small entertainment center and a 27" CRT TV sitting in between my SDA's. It sounds much better without it there, but it's not as if I absolutely can't live with it being there. It still sounds fantastic with the TV there.

The most important thing, is to make sure that the front edge of the baffle is clear, as others have mentioned. For instance, I always have my speakers positioned on either side of my TV/entertainment center. Each speaker is approximately 2.5 feet from the outside edge of my TV screen. If I had a bigger room, they would be MUCH farther apart. I have the speakers positioned though, so that the front baffles are about two inches farther forward than my TV screen. Moving the speakers slightly farther back results in getting slightly stronger bass response, but at the expense of a somewhat reduced soundstage. Now when I say "somewhat reduced" sound stage, what I really mean, is a "slightly less fantastic" sound stage. It still sounds fine with them farther back, but loses a bit of center focus.

Placement can make or break a speaker. You shouldn't really pick a speakers location based on "where it looks best". I've had my SDA's for nearly a year now, and I'm finally just about done playing with placement. It's a not a "set it and forget it" process. A $50,000 pair of speakers could sound like poo if not placed properly.


As I said before...play with toe in...definitely. Your wife may not like it, but she'll get over it. If she doesn't, I'd guess you could manage to stash her whole body between the insides of those two RTi12's.;)

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

LOL -- I know exactly what you mean about itching to get that bigger screen...it's just a guy thing...no screen will be big enough until we have that theater-sized 200-foot thing sitting 10 feet from us in our living room, and something tells me we'd still complain...:rolleyes:

Not true. I wouldn't want a screen any bigger than 37" or so in my room.;) I only sit like 9 feet from the screen though, and any bigger than that would just be too big.

I noticed your toe-in; nice job. The only thing I'd work on next, as a suggestion, is concealing your wires a bit, even the speaker leads...as for the Energy's being further apart by three or so feet, I think that would be about where my 12's are from the sides of my unit, if I had to guess (the three feet plus the room you have them at now).

Personally, I like the look of huge thick wires going all over behind my rig.;)

kuntasensei wrote: »

You're too far away from a 50" screen. Maximum distance to fully resolve 1080p with that screen size is 6.5 feet. See:
http://myhometheater.homestead.com/viewingdistancecalculator.html
http://hd.engadget.com/2006/12/09/1080p-charted-viewing-distance-to-screen-size/
http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/hitech/1137/maxing-out-resolution.html
http://www.hdtvreviewlab.com/hdtv-screen-size
http://www.lcd-hdtv.org/lcd-hdtv-guides/optimal-screen-size-viewing-distance

Not really much debate to be had there - everyone goes by SMPTE standards. But if that's what you have to work with, roll with it. For 11.5' from the screen, you'd need a minimum of an 85" screen to fully resolve 1080p.

Seriously? 6.5 feet is the maximum recommended distance from a 50" screen? That sounds ridiculously close to me. In my downstairs living room, I've got a 42" Sony plasma, and the seating position is about 11.5' away from the screen. I wouldn't even want to get a bigger screen in that room. 42" is already a bit on the large side for that room IMO. I'm looking to upgrade the TV in my 2 channel area sometime soon...I sit about 9' feet from the screen. I think the biggest screen I would even want to go with in that room would be 37" or so. Maybe a 40"... It seems to me, that a screen any larger than that would force you to move your eyes around the screen a lot, rather than just being able to take in the picture.

I have no problems resolving the full detail of 1080p on the screen sitting 11' away. If I'm missing out on that last little .000000000000000000000000000000001% of performance...oh well. What would be the maximum recommended distance from a 42" screen? Like 5.75' or something? That sounds obscenely close to the screen to me. I guess I'd rather try and preserve my eye sight than be able to see someones nose hair THAT much better.

What happened to the "don't sit so close to the screen" rule?:rolleyes:





And Mike, one last comment. You really need to get some pics up. It doesn't matter if they're low quality...so snap a couple with your phone if you can't find your camera. We don't need high def pictures...we just need to get more of a basic feel for the area you're referring to.

That being said...it sounds like you are going to absolutely, positively fine with your placement. In fact...it's going to be better than fine. It should sound fantastic.

Now quit worrying...and GET YOUR GEAR HOOKED UP, GET YOUR EARS ON THOSE 12's...AND THEN COME BACK AND TELL US HOW FANTASTIC THEY SOUND!!! I DON'T MEAN "WHEN YOUR CABINET ARRIVES"...I MEAN GET IT HOOKED UP AND PLAYING...RIGHT!!!...NOW!!!!!

Or else we're going to have to revoke your audio enthusiast membership card. Those things should have been hooked up and playing within half an hour or so of their arrival. Seriously...I don't know how you haven't hooked them up yet. I'd be losing my mind with anticipation. Seriously. It's boggling my mind.;)

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

I'm sorry for this radiation of sentiment; I don't see it as "worrying about this too much," I see it as simply trying to obtain the most amount of information regarding my particular situation and receiving insight from those with experience using these particular models of speakers.

I can see your point, but I've seen people on here getting ready to spend vastly higher amounts of money on a pair of speakers, and not been half as worried about it as you are. I'm just saying...

When you look head-on at the setup from the sweet spot, it really appears to be much, much greater than just three and a half feet from the edge of the screen (where the RTi12's come in next to the wall unit)...the actual physical measurement reads 3 1/2 feet but they really appear to be judding out and away from the screen much further than that.

Regardless of how it may appear...3.5 feet is 3.5 feet. No matter what it looks like. You'll be absolutely fine with them that far away.

I understand what you're saying about toe-in, and I will do my best to experiment with this placement application if I have to, but what I am trying to express to you and everyone else is that it's not really the case that I feel as though the main channels MUST be flanking the screen on either side -- from doing media reviews over the years and using vast amounts of equipment and setups, I can tell you that a wide-spread front soundstage can REALLY take you directly out of the onscreen left-to-right action. If these channels are spread too wide, the car, for example, that races from front right to front left will appear to end up somewhere in a house next door to you -- the coherency won't be right.

Your thoughts here are different than the thoughts of anyone else that I've ever read on this topic. The point of surround sound is to provide lots of depth and width. The point of having the left and right and surround channels is to steer the sound away from being directly on screen. If we didn't want to steer the sound away from being directly on screen, we'd all only be using center channels.

I don't want the front stage to seem way too spread, and although my measurements are telling me they're only 3 or so feet from the screen (the speakers), the visual aspect suggests they're WAY too far from the screen. Of course, as you and everyone else has suggested, I will have to get them fired up to be sure.

Again, 3 feet is 3 feet...no matter if it "looks like more" or not. 3 feet is just fine for the spacing between the speakers and TV screen. Without a doubt in my(or anyone else who's replied) mind.

The notion that the distance from the edge of the screen to the speaker being "irrelevant" is not really correct; even though there's a center channel anchoring the stage for L-C-R cohesion, those L/R mains cannot be too far apart and away from the screen -- the entire action sequence in a given frame will be completely inaccurate.

Not at all. By having the speakers to close to the screen, you're making the sequence less accurate. As I stated above, the point of having surround sound is to have that width. Obviously, you don't want them 30 feet apart when you're sitting ten feet away, but width is in NO WAY a bad thing when it comes to a HT system.

I don't have a problem keeping the edges of the speaker grilles/baffles a bit forward from the piece of the wall unit it will be against; is this what you're suggesting here?

That's not at all what I was suggesting, I was just reiterating the point, because that is going to make a tremendous difference in the overall sound of your system.

I understand this, but I absolutely have to take into consideration the aesthetic situation here -- I, and my wife (although this statement now has nothing to do with any decision she has made) absolutely HATED the way my R20's on their stands looked toed-in in our last place; it gave the space a "dorm room" look, and that's not what we're going for here with the 12's. I can experiment with some toe-in, but it cannot be excessively canted towards the listening area.

Understood. Fortunately, I don't have a wife to deal with.;)

Obviously, you've got to work within your own means, but I would very strongly suggest trying to toe them in if you can. You're worried about the speakers being too far apart, and toe in is what you use to compensate for that. You're saying that with the speakers too far apart, the soundstage will seem too wide. Toeing the speakers in, lets you place them farther apart, while still having a tighter more focused soundstage. Toe in can also add a lot of front to back depth in your front soundstage, as well as helping them to mesh better with your center channel.

I know you've got to work with what you've got, but there's got to be some kind of compromise that you can make. Even as little as half an inch to an inch of toe in can make a drastic difference in the sound.

Also...are you planning on having them flush up against the sides of the cabinet(with no breathing room between the speakers and the cabinet)? Again, I realize you've got to work within your means...but having a few inches of breathing room between the cabinets and the speakers will make a big difference in how they sound. Not to say that they'll necessarily sound bad if they're flush with the cabinets...but rather that they'll sound better with a little more air space.

You have said repeatedly that my measurements look "absolutely fine" from your standpoint, but what about the fact that I won't really be running a true equilateral triangle arrangement? That is, the distance from my listening position to the screen is 11 or so feet...the distance between the left and right RTi12 mains is less than that...around 9 or so feet...what do you make of that?

The equilateral triangle is simply a standard recommendation. It isn't an absolute necessity. The fact that their a little closer together may actually work to your benefit in this situation. As you've said, you want to avoid toeing them in. Having them closer together like that, means that you'll need less toe in.

As I said above, toeing them in helps to compensate for having them spread farther apart. Taking that knowledge, having them closer together means that generally you wouldn't need to toe them in as much.

Will it be absolutely ideal? No...but very few of our listening areas are ideal. With Audyssey room correction and all that, the less than ideal spacing and placement is made much less obvious, and really helps to correct various room issues.

Well, that is you, my friend, and I have to tell you, most guys are absolutely thinking about the next screen upgrade to that larger size -- so while you say "not true," this may be in your particular case. While my example of the 200-foot theater screen was an exaggeration, I think most would agree with me that their screen is NEVER big enough, for the most part.

Exactly...I was just stating that it wasn't true in my case. Personally, I don't really picture myself ever wanting anything bigger than a 46"-50" TV...and not in either of my current rooms.

But...I'm far from a videophile. I haven't watched a movie in about two months, and my TV has probably been on for a total of about 2 hours in the last few weeks or so.

Hell...I probably won't even have a Blu-ray player for a few more years. I'm probably going to upgrade the TV in my 2 channel area this year...but that's not even really due to wanting a nicer TV...I'm just tired of this big hulking block of a CRT TV destroying the stereo image in my 2 channel rig.

I am not sure if this was meant sarcastically, but I personally don't like the look of cables snaking everywhere; and I only suggested that tip to him based on his system and his room. It was only some humble input and opinion on what I thought would make his setup even nicer looking.

Not meant sarcastically at all. But, once again, I don't have a wife to deal with. The look of wires running behind my rig doesn't bother me in the slightest bit. I really do kind of like the look of it. It makes things look more impressive(i.e. "damn! those are some thick **** wires!!" kinda comments from friends etc.)

I wasn't downing your opinion or suggestion at all...so if you took it that way...Well...I don't know how/why you took it that way.;)

I have to agree that those statements regarding 11 feet being way too far from the screen are a bit ridiculous; I have seen those links before, and read all the articles on what they say about resolving the full 1080p image when you're much closer, but I simply don't agree -- while I think my 50" screen seems a bit smaller now that we're in a bigger room, I don't think I need to be just six feet from it to really get immersed in it. In our last place, we were 8 feet from the screen, and it sometimes hurt our eyes.

That said, I think you, particularly, just have a thing for bigger screens and seating distances; I wouldn't think that your 42" was NEARLY "too big" based on your room dimensions, but that's just me.

Exactly...I've never understood these recommendations. Going by most of the articles I've read on the subject...the ideal TV size for my downstairs living room would like a 62" or something like that. I couldn't even imagine having a TV that large in here. It would be ridiculously huge, and would make my head tired from having to turn it constantly to see all of the screen.

treitz3 wrote:

Mike, if you have 3 1/2 feet between the speakers and the screen what is the issue?

Mike LoManaco wrote:

The issue is that from the visual perspective, looking at the unit with the screen and the 12's to either side, it seemed/seems extremely far for the speakers from the screen

I see. I don't even know what to say to this other than that the issue is not with the RTi-12's. It's blatantly obvious that the issue either resides with WAF or it's simply in your own mind. You have a combined area of at least 7 feet of space to move the speakers left and right? That's more space to move speakers L & R than an estimated 90% of this board have for proper speaker placement.

Your thread title is misleading. There is no issue with the RTi-10. The issue is what you would visually like to see. That has absolutely nothing to do with the speakers.

P.S. Your speakers will be 114 inches apart. Thats nothing. Look in the system showcase at some of the members who have projectors in their HT's and see how far apart their mains are . . .