Mid-Upper-level AVR owners

LuSh · January 2010

I would encourage you to read this article:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=102050&postcount=26

Many specifications that are important aren't often explored. Damping factor at low and high output, slew rate, SNR...

I agree with everything Gene mentions, he's gone as far as to interview engineers for further explanation. I own a Yamaha RXV3900 and I believe it has one of the best power supply's in its class end of story. I have done direct comparisons in my own home and this piece and the Pioneer were the two closest. Both offered incredible dynamics, the Pioneer slightly thicker but not as spacious. It was a series of trade offs. The ACD would see if the products can meet a specification which has nothing to do with dynamics, swings or curves. Music, movies, power and impedance are all curves, constant curves. Up and down, up and down...a receiver has to cope with these curves and deliver from a low and then meet the high. An ACD is a flat line test. Manufactures should be in the business of building dynamic amplifiers. Not ones that measure well on a flat test.

hearingimpared · January 2010

LuSh wrote: »

I would encourage you to read this article:

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=102050&postcount=26

Many specifications that are important aren't often explored. Damping factor at low and high output, slew rate, SNR...

I agree with everything Gene mentions, he's gone as far as to interview engineers for further explanation. I own a Yamaha RXV3900 and I believe it has one of the best power supply's in its class end of story. I have done direct comparisons in my own home and this piece and the Pioneer were the two closest. Both offered incredible dynamics, the Pioneer slightly thicker but not as spacious. It was a series of trade offs. The ACD would see if the products can meet a specification which has nothing to do with dynamics, swings or curves. Music, movies, power and impedance are all curves, constant curves. Up and down, up and down...a receiver has to cope with these curves and deliver from a low and then meet the high. An ACD is a flat line test. Manufactures should be in the business of building dynamic amplifiers. Not ones that measure well on a flat test.

I was under the impression that the slew rate was something very important to take into consideration. I've been advised by quite a few as well as read that it is overated and unimportant. I don't remember all the reasons against it but I am curious as to why you think it important.

LuSh · January 2010

Hey hearingimpared,

I would agree that Slew Rate can be take out of context and that too high a Slew rate can introduce other distortions (RF) or limit current but the fundamental principle of meeting step changes on the input level of a signal is important. Again, this number became too great a focus and manufactures started to bastardize and manipulate this number and in some cases built product that had a higher slew rate but would in fact be worse overall when it came to distortion. I still believe that Slew Rate is an important concept in the fact that it measures dynamics and step changes which are the fundamentals of music, movies and media. Throughout my time here I've come to learn that all the numbers in the world mean very little. I believe strongly in listening first and foremost. I believe the internet age has made it too easy to pass half truths and rumors and people really do buy into the 'it looks good on paper' and suddenly it's all the rage. I see it time and time again, be it receivers (ACD champions), DACs (Benchmark) or Blu Rays (Oppo).

garypen · January 2010

pitdogg2 wrote: »

What we need out there is a real reviewer not one that sells ad space to the companies their never going to bad mouth the product because they need the ad revenue. Something like a magazine i subscribe to called "Gun tests"

Even then, it isn't always a good test.

When I was young, I worked in a mainstream electronics store. People would come in asking for stereo receivers from Akai (or maybe it was Aiwa), because a number of their models were rated best in Consumer Reports, a magazine that has never taken ad money, and, as such, is beholden to nobody.

Unfortunately, those receivers sucked. Steaming piles of crap. Poorly constructed plastic garbage when most Japanese companies were still making some incredibly well built products. They sounded bad too. Comparably-priced models from Pioneer, Kenwood, Sansui, etc were all better. Way better.

I have no idea what independent tests CR performed. Or, what there criteria was. But, they were so totally off base with that audio choice, I have never fully trusted their choices again. Over the years, I've seen some other recommendations in their magazine and website that I also had to disagree with.

So, being free of possible advertiser influence doesn't always mean you will be getting good advice.

cnh · January 2010

+1 above...

I have a really old Kewood that can kick most modern AVRs A$$ in two channel power...I''ve never been able to turn it up to full volume for fear of the DB levels it would put out. And it can drive almost anything...it is one of those old era Kenwoods, when yes, they were actually able to MAKE an amp!

cnh

garypen · January 2010

In my head, not my mouth!:D

I just don't like their looks. I can understand why some think they look great, tho. It's a very unique style.

sTiLlLeArNiNg · January 2010

Runnin' an HTR6290 (RXV1900) here and no complaint's! Great sound for an AVR and tonne's of feature's for everything else

I like Yamaha and Pioneer for AVR's

garypen · January 2010

After starting this thread, and getting all of these great responses and worthwhile advice, I may just stick with the Denon 3808 for a little while longer. It seems that the feature upgrade includes more than just newer Audyssey components. It also includes an HDMI-CEC upgrade that apparently enables HDMI pass-thru in standby. That is a very desirable feature, if correct.

Ironically, I just recently remembered that one of my sons works at BB, and can get the Pioneer SC-25 at cost, which is incredibly, amazingly, fantastically lower than msrp. In fact, it's not all that much more than I can probably sell my 3808 for.

I'll sit on the 3808 for a while after getting the feature upgrade, and see how I feel. Thanks again for all the helpful advice, tho!

fluffy · January 2010

congrats on a decision... it is a fine avr...

EDUBAG · February 2010

Hey garypen,

have you considered the marantz sr6004. I noticed that nobody mentioned this choice but it is a great unit and if you look into some reviewes it rocks. Marantz offers 110 watts per channel x 7 (all channels driven). And according to sound and vision magazine or hometheater mag. They are as close as it comes when tested. The others drop considerably when all channel are driven, not marantz.

Also they are supposed to have a great natural sound (more musical).

You can find them for 1250 all over the place. If you want to save some money to upgrade your speakers or buy an external amp you could also get the sr6003 for 750 in some places.

Hope that this helps

Mid-Upper-level AVR owners

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