Mid-Upper-level AVR owners

garypen

If anyone actually owns, or has demo'd, a Denon AVR-4310, Pioneer SC-27, or Yamaha RX-V3900, would you mind posting your impressions? I'd appreciate it. (Especially if paired with Polk Monitor 70/40/30's or TSI's)

Thanks.

Pycroft

I've heard the Pioneer SC-27, with decent gear, and I thought it was a fantastic AVR. I'm sure it would make the Polks sing. No experience with the other two, but I've heard a lower model Denon, and it sounded good. Pioneer was very bright, and would be great for home theatre. Not sure what you will be using it for.

James

Serendipity

I've only heard the Pioneer and it sounded decent.

tonyb

I've heard the Pioneer and the Denon. The Denon being a tad more laid back and the pioneer a tad more forward than nuetral. The yammie, I've pretty much given up on them, don't like their sound at all.

garypen

Thanks Py and everyone. I would be using it for a mix of movies and music. But, I prefer a natural, musical sound at all times, even when watching movies. The class D amp in the Pioneer has me interested. From what I've read, it retains very good power output with all channels driven

Yamaha's reputation in the pro audio world, plus a huge feature set, has me interested in the V3900. But, and it's a big but, the power output with all channels driven, according to HTMag, seems on the low side. But, the HDMI standby pass-thru and feature set is a very interesting to me.

I currently own a Denon 3808, a 2805 before that, and another Denon whose model number escapes me now, before that. Obviously, I like the way Denon AVR's sound. The 4310 seems interesting. But, I'm wondering how much of an upgrade it really would be. The amp seems similar. But, the feature set seems improved. OTOH, the digital audio input count would be a step back, which is bad. And, I hate their stupid remotes. (A minor point, I know.)

I suppose I can get off my lazy white ****, and get over to a showroom to check them out myself. But, I'm still hoping to read more real-world experiences from fellow Polk owners.

garypen

tonyb wrote: »

I've heard the Pioneer and the Denon. The Denon being a tad more laid back and the pioneer a tad more forward than nuetral. The yammie, I've pretty much given up on them, don't like their sound at all.

I've heard that from a few folks. When did Yamaha take such a turn for the worse? Their stereo receivers used to kick the proverbial **** in the 80's and 90's.

Erik Tracy

garypen wrote: »

I've heard that from a few folks. When did Yamaha take such a turn for the worse? Their stereo receivers used to kick the proverbial **** in the 80's and 90's.

The flagship line V1xxx series and up has historically gotten good reviews for features and sound. The generalizations that all Yamaha avrs are forward and bright is misfounded and a perpetuation of misinformation...imo....:p

And yes, I own a V1800....

garypen

Thanks Erik. I had a feeling it was the entry level stuff that may have given it the bad rap. A lot of their pro gear are industry standards.

rallyshark

If you like the Denon stuff, then you may want to give HK, and Marantz a listen to:)

garypen

Thanks Rally. It looks to me like Marantz hasn't released anything new in a while. They seem to have the same models out now that they did when I bought my 3808. If they had some new offerings, I'd definitely give them consideration. I'll look again.

As for HK, I'm not crazy about the way they look. (Although, they are better looking than Onkyo) Plus, for a while there, they seemed to have reliability issues. I remember tons of complaints about them a few years ago. It probably left a bad taste in my head. But, I'll give them another look-see based on your recommendation.

LuSh

All three are outstanding values. All channel driven tests are meaningless at best...I would encourage you to listen to all three pieces. I like the Pioneer for two channel on a multitude of sources (hi-rez, low-rez) however I felt the Yamaha did a better job with separation and being more transparent. I have honestly not heard the Denon you mentioned. I normally am not fond of the Denon house sound...I find it un-involving having said that I've heard great things about the Denon 4310.

pearsall001

Make sure you put NAD on your short list of AVR's to consider...you'll be glad you did.

mutelight

I am currently running the Pioneer SC-25 with Monitor 70s, 40s, and CS2 and have been absolutely floored. I came from a much more laid back Denon with a darker sound so the difference at first was pretty substantial. What I did was attenuate the X-curve a little to help with the brightness, run the MCAAC and my system has never sounded better. The detail, space and soundstage in movies as well as music is assaulting but not in an overly bright fatiguing manner. Sat down many of my friends who were curious to see what the difference was between my previous AVR and the Pio and put on some strong vocal tracks and as soon as the vocals came into the song the all replied along the lines of, "It sounds like the singer is right there in front of me...". When I put in some demo scenes from some Blu-rays is when it really shines, so much power and urgency drawing you deep into the scene of the movie.

The massive sound quality improvements aside (in comparison to my previous Denon) the features included are superb as well. I have multiple media servers throughout my place as well as a Sirius subscription and being able to access all my music directly from the receiver, as well as stream Sirius through my internet connection is a major plus. Also when friends come over, they can plug their iPod/iPhone, thumbdrive, you name it, directly into the front of the receiver and play their own music.

All in all, I honestly could not be happier with it, then again I have never been fortunate enough to run separates, which I am sure are significantly better but for an all-in-one AVR, Pioneer did a stunning job with this line.

Denon was like a nice warm freshly baked cookie, fresh out of the oven and was absolutely delicious.

Pioneer is a big **** cup of a fantastic blend of coffee with no cream or sugar.

WesKParker

This doesn't really answer your question...but shouldn't you be considering a better line up of speakers rather than spending 1500+ on a new receiver? Or if you intend to spend that on a receiver, regardless, shouldn't you be considering matching with a nicer set of speakers?

I'm not trying to offend, just making a suggestion...

I could be wrong... but in my mind the importance of equipment in HT is Speakers -> AMP -> Source, so dollars should be divided in that order.

mutelight

Maybe this is an intermediate step to changing speakers somewhere down the road?

I know I would rather have a solid receiver with a fair amount of power in place before I migrated to more demanding speakers.

Also, I am well aware the Monitor line is no where near top of the line but you would be surprised by the performance of the combination.

nooshinjohn

garypen wrote: »

Yamaha's reputation in the pro audio world, plus a huge feature set, has me interested in the V3900. But, and it's a big but, the power output with all channels driven, according to HTMag, seems on the low side. But, the HDMI standby pass-thru and feature set is a very interesting to me.

The Yamaha is a decent reciever, but you are correct in assuming the power ratings to be suspect. If you go this route(or with the others) plan on getting a good two channel amp at the least to run your mains and you will be pleased with the result. I ran Yamaha for the better part of two decades before moving on to separates, and if the economy does not do a fast turn around for me I will be going back to Yamaha once again.:eek:

BlueFox

If you want a great deal then go used, and find Sony's DA7100ES digital amp AVR. It was top of the line 3-4 years ago, and is the last digital amp Sony produced. While it only supports HDMI 1.1 with 2 inputs, it works great if the Bluray player decodes to LPSCM, and it has a good 175W/ch. If you can, find a Sony NA9100ES SACD/DVD player for SACD playback. These two pieces of gear were designed for each other. For SACD playback they can be connected via digital iLink with the AVR doing the decoding into analog. Plus it supports HATS for jitter elimination between both pieces of gear.

I have this setup and love it, although I have added an external Sunfire TGA5400 amp into the mix. At this point in time I cannot think of any reason to upgrade, as the Oppo BD83 loves this setup.

garypen

Mutelight - Thanks for that detailed review. You seem to have been in a similar place as I when you made your purchase. You piqued my interest in the Pioneer. (Just when I seemed to be finally zeroing in on that Yamaha, damn you!) OTOH, I like a little sugar and cream in my coffee, and prefer a medium roast. ;-) BTW, which Denon did you replace?

Wes - No offense taken, of course. But, I'm happy with these speakers for now. To improve on their sound, I'd probably have to spend more than the $12-1500 I'm looking to spend on a receiver. (I got such a ridiculous deal as it is on these Monitors.) And then, I wouldn't get the upgrade in features that I'm looking for at the head end.

BTW, you can't really go by that hard and fast spending rule, as other factors do come into play, such as discount pricing for end-of-life models, or the fact that, on occasion, some cheap stuff sounds better than some expensive stuff. Price is often not an accurate gauge of quality. (Unless you're Japanese like my wife, who places an inordinate importance on price as a gauge of quality.)

garypen

noo - I may add an external amp down the line. But, for the very economic reasons you mention, as well as space and aesthetic constraints, I will stick with only using an AVR for now. That is why I am specifically seeking an AVR with a good amp section.

Blue - No doubt about the excellent values in used equipment. It is the same reason I rarely buy a new car. Used cars are simply a way better value, when one shops wisely.

However, automotive technology does not change with the rapid pace of CE. A 3 year old AVR would be a step back in terms of overall features, even if it improves on the amp section. Remember, I already own a pretty good two-year-old AVR in the Denon 3808. I can't imagine a Sony AVR really besting it in any significant way, from my experience with both brands. But, even if it does, I'd be stepping back in features. I'd probably be better off just adding an external amp to my existing AVR.

Thanks for the tip, though!

Kex

pearsall001 wrote: »

Make sure you put NAD on your short list of AVR's to consider...you'll be glad you did.

Absolutely. You won't get all the latest bells & whistles, which may be why many never consider them ... possibly also because of the seemingly modest (but genuine) power ratings. The discreet design may not appeal to everyone either. What you will get is a unit that delivers all the power you need, even with difficult loads (a claim which very few receivers can make, even most of those that cost far more), and the best performance overall in any unit I've ever tried. I actually think they're a total bargain in terms of price vs. true performance, and in many cases, a NAD will save you the need to buy an external amplifier IMO.

Spearit Sound is a good source for full warranty online sales, including refurbished models etc.

http://www.spearitsound.com/nad/nadspec.htm

Welcome to CP, BTW, garypen!

garypen

Thanks Kex! While I'm not necessarily an "all the bells and whistles" kinda guy. I do like a bell or two and maybe even a whistle. I glanced at the NADs but found them lacking in features. (BTW, doctors recommend men to glance at their NADs on a weekly basis.)

I'll look again. But, I have a feeling I might go for a mid-upper mainstream brand, and add an amp later. I will take a second look at them though. (The AVR's, not mine.)

concealer404

Another vote for the Pioneer. I'll say off the bat that i haven't owned one, so my opinion may be invalid, but i haven't seen one negative "review" from anyone who has owned any of the new SC series AVRs on this forum since they started popping up. If i was looking into a new AVR, and had the scratch, they'd be on my VERY short list. I've been very pleased with every Pioneer AVR i've had, and still have one, though it's nowhere near the same level as the SC-27 that you mentioned.

nooshinjohn

The Sunfire TGR-3 might be in the realm of possibility for you as well. It will have a strong amp section and may fit your needs going forward.

BlueFox

garypen wrote: »

Thanks Kex! While I'm not necessarily an "all the bells and whistles" kinda guy. I do like a bell or two and maybe even a whistle. I glanced at the NADs but found them lacking in features. (BTW, doctors recommend men to glance at their NADs on a weekly basis.)

I'll look again. But, I have a feeling I might go for a mid-upper mainstream brand, and add an amp later. I will take a second look at them though. (The AVR's, not mine.)

What new bells and whistles are you looking for? Other than decoding the new Bluray compressed formats I can't think of anything new in the last few years. A decent Bluray player will do the decoding, so that isn't necessary for the AVR. If you want an AVR to do video upscaling to 1080p then that might be considered a new feature, but for that type of thing a seperate video processor is the better way to go.

garypen

Valid point. I may re-weigh the price/performance ratio, as well as revisit my needs and requirements, and come up a solution involving separates.

But, I think that for now, I will probably stick with an AVR solution, and try and decide among the 3 from my original post, as well as the others that were recommended.

I gotta say that I especially like the HDMI standby pass-thru feature of the Yamaha. It's a truly "why didn't anybody think of that before" kind of feature. It's probably relatively easy to implement, and is ideal for the huge number of HT setups out there that are multi-use Living Room/Family Room deals where the display is often used for straight cable/sat/TV viewing not requiring the AVR other than to switch the HDMI source. (Which is my case.)

hearingimpared

pearsall001 wrote: »

Make sure you put NAD on your short list of AVR's to consider...you'll be glad you did.

I was just heading in that direction. I own an NAD T765 and it is great with HT and very good with music. A big plus is that there is no need of outboard amplification.

garypen

Thanks HH. Based on your and others' recommendations of NAD, I have added the T747 to my short list. Does anybody have any experience with this newer model?

Also, any NAD dealer recommendations? Are discounts available? Or, is this typically an MSRP brand?

fluffy

i have owned in recent history ( less than a year)

pioneer vsx-519
denon 1910
yamaha rxv-995 ( 10 year old receiver)
pioneer sc-05 ( currently using)

i dont know all the cool review terms like imaging, spacing, digital crowning glory, soundstage, sound floor etc etc..

however i have had the same speakers with all the receivers.
mythos two and three up front
rt35i's for the rears
definitive technology prosub 800 or 1000

the denon sounded weak in all accounts, musically and especially home theatre ( movies )
not to mention i literally spent days reading the stupid manual and still couldnt understand 30 percent of the features.

the low entry level pioneer sounded better than the denon but i felt the hdmi through on the model interfered with the hdmi video i was seeing on my tv.. it seemed to not run trun 24fps.. may have been my imagination but i dont think so .. i did several tests with the same source and concluded the 519 did not process the 24fps signal correctly..

at this point i started saving money for the big boy the sc-05.. i dropped all hdmi connections and bought the yamaha rxv-995 from a local guy...and connected everything at first via spdif connectors ( optical i think i used )

form a pure power standpoint, i felt the yamaha was capable of bringing the house down all around me since i was accustomed to the very underpowered denon and pioneer. i even hooked up by blu ray player pioneer bdp-51 up to the yamaha via analog outputs and it sounded fantastic... lossless via analog connections was pretty damn good.. better than the hdmi lossless to the denon/pioneer for sure..

but when i finally had the funds for the pioneer sc-05 i sold my yammie ( which i loved ) and got the sc-05. NIGHT AND DAY difference, not only in the ease of understanding the connections but running mcacc was easy. and the results just brought to life my entire speaker line up.. i cant imagine it getting much better now.

i have since added second subwoofer and to me the robustness ( lol ) and fullness of the soundstage (?) is just incredible.. a friend told me that he has never heard a better surround system than mine and he has listed to a couple that were installed professionally.. yeah he could have been blowing smoke but i dont think he was..

he said he has heard louder but not better not as surround sound like ( seperation ??) that my system had..

so there you go.. a most unprofessional review from a n00b lay person!!! good luck with whatever you get...

hearingimpared

garypen wrote: »

Thanks HH. Based on your and others' recommendations of NAD, I have added the T747 to my short list. Does anybody have any experience with this newer model?

Also, any NAD dealer recommendations? Are discounts available? Or, is this typically an MSRP brand?

There are lots of authorized dealers on the internet. I had originally purchased their flagship model from an authorized dealer on ebay, I can't remember the model# at the moment, but it had a manufacturing defect. I contacted NAD Customer Service and they replaced it with their new (at the time) flagship model. I don't believe you'll get a discount as I believe they are an MSRP brand. Don't hold me to that.

garypen

Thanks Fluffy. That was very informative. Even tho most of the models you mentioned were on the lower end, there was still a lot of useful info!

mutelight

garypen wrote: »

Mutelight - Thanks for that detailed review. You seem to have been in a similar place as I when you made your purchase. You piqued my interest in the Pioneer. (Just when I seemed to be finally zeroing in on that Yamaha, damn you!) OTOH, I like a little sugar and cream in my coffee, and prefer a medium roast. ;-) BTW, which Denon did you replace?

My previous receiver was a middle of the road Denon AVR-888.