Pioneer SC line versus VSX line for a/v?

I believe the SC line is also going to be the Elite series and the VSX is their mainstream series. This usually means more inputs and ouputs, beefier power supplies, and generally a better build quality.

If you are looking at buying a Pioneer receiver and you're entertaining the thought of a VSX-01 I would REALLY try and audition it first. I have one and I'm not happy with the sound at all. Dynamics are definitely what I thought they would be and I'm definitely missing details in the sound. When I test out my systems I play 4 or 5 movies that I know the sound of very well and I'm not hearing things as cleanly and detailed as I used to. It just sounds flat and boring. I calibrated my system THREE times, moved the speakers in several different positions, did the "toe-in" thing, etc. Still not happy.

I'm so disappointed that I ended up buying a 5 channel amplifier which is 200 watts per channel (should arrive this Wednesday) to see if it's the amplification that's causing the loss in details and dynamics. If that doesn't give me the sound I want then I will sell the Elite VSX-01 immediately and either get a Marantz receiver or get a pre/pro instead.

Either way good luck in your search but be careful of the hype.

Disclaimer: I hear the SC series Pioneer receiver with the ICE amps sound better but I've never heard one so I can't say. Then again I also heard the VSX-01 would give me good sound but ummmm ya not in my case.

By the way, Denon and Marantz are the same company. I've heard a Denon 889 and it sounded very good. Much better than my setup but he had B&W 602S3's hooked up to it and you also have consider room accoustics.

digitalvideo wrote: »

How would I go about hooking that up together to work in unison?

The DVDO Edge has dual HDMI outs to include one for audio. So they allow the audio out of the Edge to the input of the AVR. Your HDMI out for video out of the Edge to your display. The Edge has been getting excellent reviews if you need the video processing as I mentioned and it won't break the bank should you decide to purchase one.

The Edge will allow you to do 1080/24 as well.

Dan, what are your thoughts on the SC-05 powering 4 LSi7 and an LSiC? I'm in an apartment, so don't need this at reference level or anything. By the time we're ready for another house I'll have an amp to drive those speakers anyway.

But for now, how well would it power that setup? I'm also concerned about 2 channel music listening, is this receiver well suited for that or will I be making a compromise in that department?

Here is my two cents I happen to own the vsx-1018 which is equivalent to the vsx-01 the only difference is that the 1018 does not have s-video and the 01 does.
I also have the SC-07. I compared the sc-07 with the Vsx-1018 and the sound of the sc-07 is just much better, It is more open, there is more dimention. That is not to say that the 1018 is that bad, it is that the sc-07 is better at what it does.
It also costs 3 times as much so keep that in mind.

The sc-07 has a better DAC, it does have the ICE amps but I use an external amp and It never tested it without the external amp.
I can tell you that I am very satisfied with my SC-07 to the point that receiver is not in my to do to see if I can improve.

Another note is that the SC-07 will not upscale HDMI so if you are getting 1080p from your Blue Ray then that is excatly was will pass from the receiver to the TV regarless of 24p or 60p.

I can also tell you the best upgrade to my system so far was moving from my RTi6 to the B&W 804s.
The sound just changed and I am not looking back.

mantis wrote: »

Setup MCACC , correct speaker placement , the room all play a huge part in your overall sound quality.

Agree with Dan's suggestion. MACC does wonders.. I hav found running MACC after a simple change to ur setup will hav a major impact..

I wud suggest u run MACC before adding ur amp and after adding ur amp to experience the difference

digitalvideo wrote: »

How does the B&W 804's compare to the Polk RTi A9's for sound quality for HT dvd/bluray and tv-sports?

I am sorry I didn't look at none of the RTi or LSi lines, besides what you see on my signature.

I did see a big improvements going from csi3 to the csi5 but that was back when I was putting my all polk HT system up.

I hear that the RTi A9 is a very good speaker, but I had my mind set on B&W and you know how it goes. I am happy enough that I don't really care if the RTi9 was twice as good. I love the sound and look of my B&W. I am hoping I save enough to get the center channel but this is going to take a while.

digitalvideo wrote: »

Can I shut off the EDGE when I want to watch dvd's and blurays through the Oppo through the Pioneer reciever to the tv and when I'm done just turn the Edge back on to watch regular tv or do I need to unplug wires and connect wires back directly to the Oppo or reciever, meaning is the Edge user friendly and simple with just one On/Off button?

Your sources will be plugged into the VP which in turn will act as a switch so it will have to be on., unless you decide to connect the Oppo directly to your AVR. So you could go cable box, or whatever you want upconverted to the Edge, Edge into display and AVR for audio, simple. You win both ways.

mantis wrote: »

First off nice system you got there. I got a few questions on your comments on the vsx01.

1) What did you have before the 01 that you think sounded better?
2) You state the Dynamics are what you expect but what does that mean? Is it dynamic or not?
3) You say your missing details in your sound quality, I'm curious what you are missing?
4) Are the Paradigms a new addition to your system or where they used on your last system that sounded better?

I ask these question to figure out what you are talking about. The vsx01 is a fantastic receiver and I have yet to feel the same way about it as you do. Setup MCACC , correct speaker placement , the room all play a huge part in your overall sound quality. I also suspect if your looking for detail , you might have the wrong speakers. The Monitor series from Paradigm is a nice line but not the most detailed line out there. There Studio line and even the Cinema line seems to have better details. I don't get it as most of Paradigm floor standing speakers seem to lack something here and there. There book shelf speakers, on wall , in wall , in ceiling speakers are fantastic.

So adding a amp to your system I don't think will give you what you are looking for. If we can isolate the problem , maybe we can fix it and get you happy. I don't think it's the Elite receiver unless you have a incredibly large room.
You sub is also in suspect. Paradigm subs start to get good at the Ultra series and up. everything under that is more like a 1 hit wonder. They make bass but it's not tuned bass. It can cloud the system and do exactly what your system is doing. It's so important to have a sub match and react as fast as the system speakers. The Ultracub 10 is a good entry example of this. The Seismic 10 or 12 is a great musical as well as theater sub. Then there is the mighty Servo 15 which doesn't work in all rooms but when placed correctly and setup, it's a killer badass double duty sub.

Start a new thread if you wish and we can go over your system step by step and figure out your lack of detail.

Where do I even start. My sub is suspect?? Have you read the reviews on the sub? It's one of the better subs on the market and you think it's suspect? It has 400 watts RMS, with a class D amp and I would NOT trade it for any other sub unless it was the Servo 15 but that would be overkill in my place. I had a Velodyne 12" DPS 12 sub up until a couple of months ago but I didn't like the sound I was getting from it at all. Not tight and it was boomy. Tried many different things to get the sub sounding better but nothing helped, not room position, not the MCACC, I even tried playing with the Phase, nothing helped. The 10" PW2100 smokes it, seriously it's not even close. Read the reviews if you don't believe me.

I'll get to your questions.

1) Believe it or not I had a Yamaha 5740 before the Pioneer and it sounded better, no question. Only problem was that it did not have the TrueHD and DTS HD decoders, and the amplification was weak in the surrounds. Still it was clean when it wasn't cranked and I heard a lot more things in the same movies I am playing now. It almost sounds like it's in mono compared to the Yamaha amp. Now I realize that people say the Yamahas are "bright" but I definitely enjoyed the details, it's as if I was hearing every bit of information available in the audio. The sound was clean and not too bright in my opinion. Dynamics on the Pioneer...well it sounds flat. I even talked to the guy at my local audio store where I buy most of my equipment (I highly respected audio store in Toronto by the way) and he tells me that some of his customers actually prefer the sound with the EQ off on the Pioneer Elites. I tried it and it did improve a little, but the audio is still flat and boring, especially when listening to the HD audio tracks in movies, it should be phenominal but it's not. In my original post I meant to say the dynamics are NOT what I expected. That was a typo on my part.

As far as the Paradigms, I've had them for roughly 6 yrs and enjoy them thoroughly. I friend of mine has the same setup with the Yamaha 6290 and it sounds fantastic.I also heard my paradigms at someone elses house with a Denon 889 receiver (if memory serves) and it absolutely smoked the sound I'm getting from my Pioneer. Seriously, it was in another league altogether. Truth be told I'm very picky when it comes to sound and picture quality. I notice things in both that others don't and I have not been happy with my Pioneer "Elite" since day one but I have given it every opportunity to prove me wrong by playing and adjusting things for a few months now. I'm not even close to happy.

I'm going to see how the amp helps the sound if at all. If I'm not pleased, the Pioneer and the amp are both going and I'm getting a Marantz and be done with it. The only reason I got the Pioneer over the Marantz was because of my plasma which is a Pioneer but I should have went with experience (I've heard Marantz equipment in the past and was pleased with the sound. Clean and detailed as I like).

Mantis, no offense intended but you seem almost blinded to Pioneer receivers for some reason. There are certainly better receivers in the same price ranges out there but I understand people prefer different things so to each their own.

Falcon01 wrote: »

Where do I even start. My sub is suspect?? Have you read the reviews on the sub? It's one of the better subs on the market and you think it's suspect? It has 400 watts RMS, with a class D amp and I would NOT trade it for any other sub unless it was the Servo 15 but that would be overkill in my place. I had a Velodyne 12" DPS 12 sub up until a couple of months ago but I didn't like the sound I was getting from it at all. Not tight and it was boomy. Tried many different things to get the sub sounding better but nothing helped, not room position, not the MCACC, I even tried playing with the Phase, nothing helped. The 10" PW2100 smokes it, seriously it's not even close. Read the reviews if you don't believe me.

I'll get to your questions.

1) Believe it or not I had a Yamaha 5740 before the Pioneer and it sounded better, no question. Only problem was that it did not have the TrueHD and DTS HD decoders, and the amplification was weak in the surrounds. Still it was clean when it wasn't cranked and I heard a lot more things in the same movies I am playing now. It almost sounds like it's in mono compared to the Yamaha amp. Now I realize that people say the Yamahas are "bright" but I definitely enjoyed the details, it's as if I was hearing every bit of information available in the audio. The sound was clean and not too bright in my opinion. Dynamics on the Pioneer...well it sounds flat. I even talked to the guy at my local audio store where I buy most of my equipment (I highly respected audio store in Toronto by the way) and he tells me that some of his customers actually prefer the sound with the EQ off on the Pioneer Elites. I tried it and it did improve a little, but the audio is still flat and boring, especially when listening to the HD audio tracks in movies, it should be phenominal but it's not. In my original post I meant to say the dynamics are NOT what I expected. That was a typo on my part.

As far as the Paradigms, I've had them for roughly 6 yrs and enjoy them thoroughly. I friend of mine has the same setup with the Yamaha 6290 and it sounds fantastic.I also heard my paradigms at someone elses house with a Denon 889 receiver (if memory serves) and it absolutely smoked the sound I'm getting from my Pioneer. Seriously, it was in another league altogether. Truth be told I'm very picky when it comes to sound and picture quality. I notice things in both that others don't and I have not been happy with my Pioneer "Elite" since day one but I have given it every opportunity to prove me wrong by playing and adjusting things for a few months now. I'm not even close to happy.

I'm going to see how the amp helps the sound if at all. If I'm not pleased, the Pioneer and the amp are both going and I'm getting a Marantz and be done with it. The only reason I got the Pioneer over the Marantz was because of my plasma which is a Pioneer but I should have went with experience (I've heard Marantz equipment in the past and was pleased with the sound. Clean and detailed as I like).

Mantis, no offense intended but you seem almost blinded to Pioneer receivers for some reason. There are certainly better receivers in the same price ranges out there but I understand people prefer different things so to each their own.

After reading your post , it sounds to me like you prefer the sound of Yamaha. Ok thats fine then shy not go after a new Yamaha? isn't there a rxz11 for sale in the flea market? You should check that out, it's a beast.
Yamaha vs Pioneer for sound quality are very different. The comments you heard about Yamaha are pretty on par. Yamaha receivers are very forward and bright to many people especially if you listen to a Denon or Pioneer or even in your case a Marantz. Marantz is almost Identical to Pioneer Elite in sound quality. Denon has a similar sound quality but lacks the punch of dynamics that the Pioneer and Marantz's have.
I'm far from blinded from Pioneer. I'm a Professional Installer and get to hear everything under the sun not to mention we as a company carry just about everything. I have a very open mind and if I hear something I like or notice it works in many different room with many different speakers, I like to talk about it hence the Pioneer ELite receivers.
Paradigm subs are good. Your comments about your system made me think your sub was clouding or mudding up your overall sound quality. You could have the phase simply set wrong and it will do that. I Install paradigm all the time and think that all there subs under the Ultracubes are not musical and are 1 hit wonders. Sorry dude thats my professional and personal opinion. Everyone I work with shares this same opinion. We are a audiophile company and are extremely picky with our gear. Nothing wrong with the lower end Paradigm subs actually many really like them for theater, they do that role very well. Lots of output lots of bank for the buck but if you wanna sit down and listen to a piece of music, your comments on your current system are my opinion listening to music with the lower end Paradigm subs.
You can go get a amp for your system, I don't think it's going to help. I really think you should move the Pioneer and get another Yamaha. I bet you'd be happy again with your system.
Good luck.