Pioneer SC line versus VSX line for a/v?

digitalvideo

Falcon01 wrote: »

Where do I even start. My sub is suspect?? Have you read the reviews on the sub? It's one of the better subs on the market and you think it's suspect? It has 400 watts RMS, with a class D amp and I would NOT trade it for any other sub unless it was the Servo 15 but that would be overkill in my place. I had a Velodyne 12" DPS 12 sub up until a couple of months ago but I didn't like the sound I was getting from it at all. Not tight and it was boomy. Tried many different things to get the sub sounding better but nothing helped, not room position, not the MCACC, I even tried playing with the Phase, nothing helped. The 10" PW2100 smokes it, seriously it's not even close. Read the reviews if you don't believe me.

I'll get to your questions.

1) Believe it or not I had a Yamaha 5740 before the Pioneer and it sounded better, no question. Only problem was that it did not have the TrueHD and DTS HD decoders, and the amplification was weak in the surrounds. Still it was clean when it wasn't cranked and I heard a lot more things in the same movies I am playing now. It almost sounds like it's in mono compared to the Yamaha amp. Now I realize that people say the Yamahas are "bright" but I definitely enjoyed the details, it's as if I was hearing every bit of information available in the audio. The sound was clean and not too bright in my opinion. Dynamics on the Pioneer...well it sounds flat. I even talked to the guy at my local audio store where I buy most of my equipment (I highly respected audio store in Toronto by the way) and he tells me that some of his customers actually prefer the sound with the EQ off on the Pioneer Elites. I tried it and it did improve a little, but the audio is still flat and boring, especially when listening to the HD audio tracks in movies, it should be phenominal but it's not. In my original post I meant to say the dynamics are NOT what I expected. That was a typo on my part.

As far as the Paradigms, I've had them for roughly 6 yrs and enjoy them thoroughly. I friend of mine has the same setup with the Yamaha 6290 and it sounds fantastic.I also heard my paradigms at someone elses house with a Denon 889 receiver (if memory serves) and it absolutely smoked the sound I'm getting from my Pioneer. Seriously, it was in another league altogether. Truth be told I'm very picky when it comes to sound and picture quality. I notice things in both that others don't and I have not been happy with my Pioneer "Elite" since day one but I have given it every opportunity to prove me wrong by playing and adjusting things for a few months now. I'm not even close to happy.

I'm going to see how the amp helps the sound if at all. If I'm not pleased, the Pioneer and the amp are both going and I'm getting a Marantz and be done with it. The only reason I got the Pioneer over the Marantz was because of my plasma which is a Pioneer but I should have went with experience (I've heard Marantz equipment in the past and was pleased with the sound. Clean and detailed as I like).

Mantis, no offense intended but you seem almost blinded to Pioneer receivers for some reason. There are certainly better receivers in the same price ranges out there but I understand people prefer different things so to each their own.

You should compare the Pioneer SC line to a Denon/Marantz in it's class.

Everything I read and hear is the Pioneer SC line is better for sound and Denon is better for video quality.

Falcon01

Mantis, you may be confusing the PDR series woofers with the PW series which is a much better sub. It is discontinued now but it was one of their high end subs when they were making it. They eventually upgraded the ultra class D amp to 500 watts RMS and was one of the best rated subs on the market. I can honestly say that there are very few 10" subs that can beat the PW2100 for accuracy, tightness and impact that it has and the ones that can beat it cost MUCH more money.

If you want a musical receiver than definitely go with a Marantz, no question. I like to have the best of both worlds but like I said I'm really missing out on things with the Pioneer VSX-01. I realize it could be my room and other things but the Yamaha didn't sound like this at all and it was in the same room, same speakers, wires, etc. Like I mentioned before, the only way I can explain it is as if I'm hearing it in mono, although it is nowhere near THAT bad.

I'm used to a big open sound field that really does surround you. With the Pioneer it's more like a flat sound that just comes directly at you. This is just my experience and I don't expect everyone to hear the same type of sound with their VSX-01's. I know the higher end SC line gets great reviews but they are out of my price range for an AVR. I would rather go seperates and then when technology advances (like with the upcoming HDMI 1.4) I can just upgrade the pre/pro. I realize we all have different needs and situations but in my experience the Pioneer isn't what I was hoping for.

Falcon01

I can't edit my last post so I just have to make another one. Looks like I'm getting a great deal on a barely used Marantz 6003 so I'll let you guys know how much (or little) of a difference I hear in the system. I should have it hooked up by the weekend.

mantis

Falcon01 wrote: »

I can't edit my last post so I just have to make another one. Looks like I'm getting a great deal on a barely used Marantz 6003 so I'll let you guys know how much (or little) of a difference I hear in the system. I should have it hooked up by the weekend.

Cool looking forward to your impressions.

Montoya

Did you just run the basic mcacc or did you do the pro setup and adjust the reverb setting and do the pro eq setup? Correct calibration makes a world of differance. If you need further details let me know if you want to give it one more shot I can post instructions for best calib. setup.

Falcon01 wrote: »

I can't edit my last post so I just have to make another one. Looks like I'm getting a great deal on a barely used Marantz 6003 so I'll let you guys know how much (or little) of a difference I hear in the system. I should have it hooked up by the weekend.

digitalvideo

Falcon01 wrote: »

I'm used to a big open sound field that really does surround you. With the Pioneer it's more like a flat sound that just comes directly at you. This is just my experience and I don't expect everyone to hear the same type of sound with their VSX-01's. I know the higher end SC line gets great reviews but they are out of my price range for an AVR. I would rather go seperates and then when technology advances (like with the upcoming HDMI 1.4) I can just upgrade the pre/pro. I realize we all have different needs and situations but in my experience the Pioneer isn't what I was hoping for.

You can find the Pioneer SC-05 on Ebay, Audiogon, Craigslist and other places as low as $599.

Pedler

Falcon01 wrote: »

Where do I even start. My sub is suspect?? Have you read the reviews on the sub? It's one of the better subs on the market and you think it's suspect? It has 400 watts RMS, with a class D amp and I would NOT trade it for any other sub unless it was the Servo 15 but that would be overkill in my place. I had a Velodyne 12" DPS 12 sub up until a couple of months ago but I didn't like the sound I was getting from it at all. Not tight and it was boomy. Tried many different things to get the sub sounding better but nothing helped, not room position, not the MCACC, I even tried playing with the Phase, nothing helped. The 10" PW2100 smokes it, seriously it's not even close. Read the reviews if you don't believe me.

I'll get to your questions.

1) Believe it or not I had a Yamaha 5740 before the Pioneer and it sounded better, no question. Only problem was that it did not have the TrueHD and DTS HD decoders, and the amplification was weak in the surrounds. Still it was clean when it wasn't cranked and I heard a lot more things in the same movies I am playing now. It almost sounds like it's in mono compared to the Yamaha amp. Now I realize that people say the Yamahas are "bright" but I definitely enjoyed the details, it's as if I was hearing every bit of information available in the audio. The sound was clean and not too bright in my opinion. Dynamics on the Pioneer...well it sounds flat. I even talked to the guy at my local audio store where I buy most of my equipment (I highly respected audio store in Toronto by the way) and he tells me that some of his customers actually prefer the sound with the EQ off on the Pioneer Elites. I tried it and it did improve a little, but the audio is still flat and boring, especially when listening to the HD audio tracks in movies, it should be phenominal but it's not. In my original post I meant to say the dynamics are NOT what I expected. That was a typo on my part.

As far as the Paradigms, I've had them for roughly 6 yrs and enjoy them thoroughly. I friend of mine has the same setup with the Yamaha 6290 and it sounds fantastic.I also heard my paradigms at someone elses house with a Denon 889 receiver (if memory serves) and it absolutely smoked the sound I'm getting from my Pioneer. Seriously, it was in another league altogether. Truth be told I'm very picky when it comes to sound and picture quality. I notice things in both that others don't and I have not been happy with my Pioneer "Elite" since day one but I have given it every opportunity to prove me wrong by playing and adjusting things for a few months now. I'm not even close to happy.

I'm going to see how the amp helps the sound if at all. If I'm not pleased, the Pioneer and the amp are both going and I'm getting a Marantz and be done with it. The only reason I got the Pioneer over the Marantz was because of my plasma which is a Pioneer but I should have went with experience (I've heard Marantz equipment in the past and was pleased with the sound. Clean and detailed as I like).

Mantis, no offense intended but you seem almost blinded to Pioneer receivers for some reason. There are certainly better receivers in the same price ranges out there but I understand people prefer different things so to each their own.

Having read your post. I would like to ask if you went in and adjusted the fine levels in the Pioneer. You may have some of the channels bleeding into the others. eg. center audio in the left channel and the back surrounds in the fronts.
seeing how you have nothing to loose can you try this for me.

go into fine levels and select the reference distance for the left speaker and listen by ear and adjust the clicking sound to get the speakers to sound were they should be in the room. the same goes for the subwoofer. note: don't worry so much about the numbers.

It will help with the dynamics also. ( I eventually sold my sc-07 ). Each Receiver has it's good and it's bad. but for me it had some issues I could not live with. I could go into detail but... EH.. ( 9 band eq and I can't hear music while you adjust it till i get out of the menu. ) What were you thinking Pioneer.

digitalvideo

Pedler wrote: »

It will help with the dynamics also. ( I eventually sold my sc-07 ). Each Receiver has it's good and it's bad. but for me it had some issues I could not live with. I could go into detail but... EH.. ( 9 band eq and I can't hear music while you adjust it till i get out of the menu. ) What were you thinking Pioneer.

What other specific issues or problems did you have with your SC-07 if you don't mind posting them? I have the SC-05 and it's been fine but I'm not an audiophile so I don't have that expert ear. I use my 7.1 HT for tv/sports, dvd/bluray movies over 90% of the time, it's built for HT. I believe the Pioneer SC line is better for sound for movies and tv while the Denon is better for video/visual upconverting and Marantz is better for music. I use my Pioneer to drive my speakers and my Oppo for digital upscaling of movies so I'm still saving thousands of dollars that way instead of buying the Denon 5308. If you want the best reciever out there for movies now I would look into the Denon 5308, but it's expensive.

Falcon01

Pedler wrote: »

Having read your post. I would like to ask if you went in and adjusted the fine levels in the Pioneer. You may have some of the channels bleeding into the others. eg. center audio in the left channel and the back surrounds in the fronts.
seeing how you have nothing to loose can you try this for me.

go into fine levels and select the reference distance for the left speaker and listen by ear and adjust the clicking sound to get the speakers to sound were they should be in the room. the same goes for the subwoofer. note: don't worry so much about the numbers.

It will help with the dynamics also. ( I eventually sold my sc-07 ). Each Receiver has it's good and it's bad. but for me it had some issues I could not live with. I could go into detail but... EH.. ( 9 band eq and I can't hear music while you adjust it till i get out of the menu. ) What were you thinking Pioneer.

Hmmmm I didn't know you could do that. I'll check the manual tomorrow to see how to get into the Fine Levels menu. That sounds promising. I got the XPA-5 but I won't hook it up for a couple of days until I get the cables. Then when I hook it up I will have to do the MCACC all over again. Sheesh.

Then I'll have to try all of this with the Marantz 6003. I don't find the audio calibration part fun, especially when it doesn't sound right afterwards and you have to do it all over again and keep trying different things. Hopefully though things will be different this time.

Thanks for the suggestion!

Montoya, I'm pretty sure I did the pro setup as I printed out a set of instructions from AVS (I think?) which showed how to analyze the graphs and all kinds of other things. It should not be this complicated though. People should just be able to hook up their stuff and let her rip. I realize that room accoustics, equipment, speakers, wires, furniture, etc play a big part in sound so that's why the calibration is needed. I just wish it was easier.