Using a Receiver With No Pre Outs as a Pre/Pro?

Mike LoManaco · July 2009

I have been having this lengthy discussion with lots of Onkyo 605/606 owners in private messaging who have asked me about this very issue, but there doesn't seem to be a concrete answer to the dilemma...is there any way to use a receiver that doesn't have pre-outs -- such as the 605 or 606 series -- as a pre/pro to feed a power amp?

In car audio, for example, there are ways to feed a power amp a "speaker level" signal from a head unit (radio) when the radio has no pre-out jacks; is something like this AT ALL possible with a HT receiver?

Many times, folks like their receiver for its processing, etc. but just need more power -- a good upgrade from the 605/606's 90 watts per channel would be a solid example of this -- so the addition of just a power amp would make sense.

Shicks18 · July 2009

Short answer: No
To maximize sound quality, your receiver can not function as a preamp without preouts.

disneyjoe7 · July 2009

I suppose you could add a resistor from the speaker output to use it as a pre amp output, but understand any noise from the AVR will be amp'd up. So not a really nice way to due to, if you like to upgrade your system with an amp you really need an AVR with pre amp output.

kawizx9r · July 2009

Im in that predicament and....well in most ways you cant use it as such. What I'd recommend is getting a new AVR with outputs or a pre/pro.

What I did for one situation is when watching DVD's alone or DVD-audio, I use both my 2-chan setup and my HT's surround setup and I'll explain how. My SACD/DVD-A player has separate analog outputs for each channel, and I wanted to use my SDA 2 channel setup with my HT to hear how it sounded. I connected the L/R front channels of my DVD player to my kenwood pre and used my SDA's to take care of the front 2 channels. Then ran the other analog outputs from my DVD player (center/subwoofer/L/R surround) to my AVR and use my AVR to power the surround/center speakers. It was just a temporary thing because I was interested to hear how my SDA's would sound for HT. Other than that, I can't use that setup when watching blu ray movies because I have a seperate blu ray player and it doesn't have the whole lot of analog outputs so I can't split the audio track to my AVR and pre. Kind of sucks switching cables/etc but it was nice to hear how it sounded.

But if youre trying to use your current AVR as a pre, answer is no you cant.

Mike LoManaco · July 2009

Thanks for the quick replies, guys!

How would one go about adding a resistor to the speaker outs, Joe?

comfortablycurt · July 2009

They do make adaptors for speaker level outputs to convert them to line level...It's not really the ideal method though.

Here's one...

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-gkbBUlVtMe4/p_543ADP12/Russound-ADP-1-2-Speaker-level-to-Line-level-Adapter.html

You'd have to buy three of them, four if you're running 7.1. At $40 each, it'd add up to $120-$160, depending on how many you'd need. For that much, you'd be better off upgrading the AVR.

You'd really be best served by just upgrading your AVR. I've got a 606 myself, and I'm planning on upgrading next year. Aside from lacking pre-outs, it lacks a lot of other features that AVR's a couple rungs higher have.

You could sell your 605 and save a little more coin and buy a 706/806 if your prefer to stick with Onkyo. It wouldn't cost you a whole lot more than what you'd get for the 605.

slowpolky · July 2009

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-gkbBUlV...l-Adapter.html

I love this idea , does it work ?

comfortablycurt · July 2009

slowpolky wrote: »

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-gkbBUlV...l-Adapter.html

I love this idea , does it work ?

Yes...it works, but it's not really ideal. Any noise that may be produced by the speaker level outputs is now going to be amplified by the external amps, it can create a lot of back ground noise.

I wouldn't even waste my time with it personally.

For how much it would cost to get enough adapters for a whole setup, you'd be better off just selling your AVR and buying something that does have pre-outs.

Mike LoManaco · July 2009

comfortablycurt wrote: »

They do make adaptors for speaker level outputs to convert them to line level...It's not really the ideal method though.

Here's one...

http://www.crutchfield.com/S-gkbBUlVtMe4/p_543ADP12/Russound-ADP-1-2-Speaker-level-to-Line-level-Adapter.html

Thanks, as always, Curt!

Wow -- didn't even know they made one of these for home audio applications, let alone that Crutchfield sold one...

You'd have to buy three of them, four if you're running 7.1. At $40 each, it'd add up to $120-$160, depending on how many you'd need. For that much, you'd be better off upgrading the AVR.

Interesting...

You'd really be best served by just upgrading your AVR. I've got a 606 myself, and I'm planning on upgrading next year. Aside from lacking pre-outs, it lacks a lot of other features that AVR's a couple rungs higher have.

Aside from power, I don't find my '605 lacking at all (save for the pre outs, of course); what else do you feel the other models in their lineup have that the 600-series doesn't?

You could sell your 605 and save a little more coin and buy a 706/806 if your prefer to stick with Onkyo. It wouldn't cost you a whole lot more than what you'd get for the 605.

The problem is, if I go down the route of just replacing my current AVR, I might as well just go full blown and get a multichannel amp and brand new pre pro; why get another receiver at that point?

comfortablycurt · July 2009

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

Thanks, as always, Curt!

Wow -- didn't even know they made one of these for home audio applications, let alone that Crutchfield sold one...

Interesting...

Aside from power, I don't find my '605 lacking at all (save for the pre outs, of course); what else do you feel the other models in their lineup have that the 600-series doesn't?

The problem is, if I go down the route of just replacing my current AVR, I might as well just go full blown and get a multichannel amp and brand new pre pro; why get another receiver at that point?

The higher models have better video processing, a better version of Audyssey, a wider array of inputs/outputs as well as a lot more versatility as far as setup options go. Not to mention that they're just much better built all around with beefier parts...transformers etc... The Onkyo 600 series has kind of disappointed me to be honest. They excel in some areas, but really lack a lot in other areas IMO.

Personally, I'm probably going to be done with Onkyo after this. They just aren't musical sounding in my experiences...they're kind of sterile sounding really. They excel for HT...that's about it IMO. I'm looking at the Pioneer Elite SC-07 for my next upgrade in the HT setup.

As far as the AVR vs. pre-pro debate...I've been tossing around the same options recently.

Most of the pre-pro's on the market don't really seem to have the options that I'd need. The Onkyo/Integra pre-pro's do for the most part, as well as the Marantz AV8003...but the SC-07 has everything they offer plus more, and for less money. With a higher end AVR, you don't have to buy a pre and an amp at one time either. You can get a better AVR to start with, and eventually add an amp later on. If you still feel like you need more, then you sell the AVR at minimal loss, and buy a pre-pro.

IMO, you're not going to find a better deal than the SC-07, whether you plan to use the internal amps, or use it as a pre-pro with external amps.

nguyendot · July 2009

This is just a bad idea. You're going to have to Macguyver something together, then realize that it cost a lot and sounds horrible, then end up replacing it as a whole, wasting even more money.

You really need a clean pre-out. High-level converters are only used as a last resort in car audio, and always sound pretty bad comparative to line level outs. In your home where the noise floor is might lower and you can hear discrepancies much more easily, this "solution" will kill any quality you may have in your system.

Answer: don't do it. Just because you can "get it to work" does not mean you should.

cfrizz · July 2009

Thank you God!!!! A man with patience & common sense!!!

Taking the cheap way out NEVER pays off in the long run, since you end up being unhappy with the cheap POS & then have to buy the same gear a 2nd time for even more money to get what you wanted in the first place.

Take your time, do your research & save more money to get what you really want. Do it once & do it right the first time around!

That way you are happy, & in the long run so are your wallet & SO/wife since you won't have to do it again anytime soon.

Serendipity · July 2009

Like previously said, a speaker level converter will degrade the sound quality but will work.

Mike LoManaco · July 2009

comfortablycurt wrote: »

The higher models have better video processing, a better version of Audyssey, a wider array of inputs/outputs as well as a lot more versatility as far as setup options go. Not to mention that they're just much better built all around with beefier parts...transformers etc... The Onkyo 600 series has kind of disappointed me to be honest. They excel in some areas, but really lack a lot in other areas IMO.

Interesting. Most 600 owners have been more than happy with their units (for the price of course); yes, the other models have what you mentioned and above the 600s, they include THX certification and such, but I didn't take into account the video scaling quality because I will always be using the receiver as a pass through for HDMI. Also, sure, the bigger Onks have beefier transformers and parts, but if you're using this as a pre pro, do transformers make a difference? It's really being used for processing, switching and volume control. I think the 600 series are pretty "beefy" for their class, but this is just my opinion.

Personally, I'm probably going to be done with Onkyo after this. They just aren't musical sounding in my experiences...they're kind of sterile sounding really. They excel for HT...that's about it IMO. I'm looking at the Pioneer Elite SC-07 for my next upgrade in the HT setup.

Most speak of Onkyo's "cold, steely" sound, but I like my 605 for music and home theater together; you are not alone in your feelings of their musicality. However, a friend of mine who got me into the HT hobby and who bought their stuff exclusively at one point had one of Onk's two channel amps in his system and then a stereo receiver and both really, really kicked **** -- I was sold on the brand since then. I think their products have a nice, solid build to them with a "seriousness" of purpose: the aluminum faceplates, the knobs, etc.

As far as the AVR vs. pre-pro debate...I've been tossing around the same options recently.

Most of the pre-pro's on the market don't really seem to have the options that I'd need. The Onkyo/Integra pre-pro's do for the most part, as well as the Marantz AV8003...but the SC-07 has everything they offer plus more, and for less money. With a higher end AVR, you don't have to buy a pre and an amp at one time either. You can get a better AVR to start with, and eventually add an amp later on. If you still feel like you need more, then you sell the AVR at minimal loss, and buy a pre-pro.

IMO, you're not going to find a better deal than the SC-07, whether you plan to use the internal amps, or use it as a pre-pro with external amps.

I shall take into consideration.

Mike LoManaco · July 2009

Keiko wrote: »

Mike, you could use the receivers "tape out" into a separate component. You'd need something like an integrated amp instead of a straight power amp to control the volume though. I got one of my 2 channel Yammie receiver's configured something like this and it works great for my needs. You could easily find a decent, used integrated amp or even a 2nd receiver for this type of application and do it very inexpensively.

How would this work exactly, Keik, going from the Tape Out?

dudeinaroom · July 2009

OK, when I had first got my adcom, my technics had no pre-out, but the head phone jack would work with out cutting the speakers off, so.........I pluged in a 1/4" to 1/8" headphone adapter, and then used a headphone to rca adapter( think I pod/mp3 player adapter). Don't have to worry about sound being compromised as the headphone jack is usually part of the pre amp, only draw back is you will have a cord coming off the front of your receiver.

Danny Tse · July 2009

What you need is the Carver Z-coupler. Here's the 2 channel version on ebay....

http://cgi.ebay.com/CARVER-WIDE-BAND-AMPLIFIER-PREAMPLIFIER-Z-COUPLER-Z-1_W0QQitemZ400061540977QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVintage_Electronics_R2?hash=item5d2586aa71&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116#ht_1299wt_939

Carver made a 5 channel version at one time for HT receivers.

comfortablycurt · July 2009

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

Interesting. Most 600 owners have been more than happy with their units (for the price of course); yes, the other models have what you mentioned and above the 600s, they include THX certification and such, but I didn't take into account the video scaling quality because I will always be using the receiver as a pass through for HDMI. Also, sure, the bigger Onks have beefier transformers and parts, but if you're using this as a pre pro, do transformers make a difference? It's really being used for processing, switching and volume control. I think the 600 series are pretty "beefy" for their class, but this is just my opinion.

Most speak of Onkyo's "cold, steely" sound, but I like my 605 for music and home theater together; you are not alone in your feelings of their musicality. However, a friend of mine who got me into the HT hobby and who bought their stuff exclusively at one point had one of Onk's two channel amps in his system and then a stereo receiver and both really, really kicked **** -- I was sold on the brand since then. I think their products have a nice, solid build to them with a "seriousness" of purpose: the aluminum faceplates, the knobs, etc.

I shall take into consideration.

They are decent for their price point, but after researching them more, I really feel that there are better options out there for the same price. The other features aside, the lack of pre-outs is a HUGE flaw on their part. In hindsight, I really wish I hadn't bought this 606. These Onk's run WAAAAY too hot too. I know they're supposed to run that hot...but I really think they should have re-designed them to run a bit on the cooler side. These things are practically hot enough to fry an egg sometimes.

I don't believe the transformer would make a difference when using the AVR as a pre-pro...not positive on that though.

My Onk's doing it's job for now...but the more time I spend with it, the less I like it. That said, I'm really looking forward to upgrading and dumping the 606.

I might keep it around for a future bedroom rig...but I'll most likely sell it.

Mike LoManaco · July 2009

Danny Tse wrote: »

What you need is the Carver Z-coupler. Here's the 2 channel version on ebay....

http://cgi.ebay.com/CARVER-WIDE-BAND-AMPLIFIER-PREAMPLIFIER-Z-COUPLER-Z-1_W0QQitemZ400061540977QQcmdZViewItemQQptZVintage_Electronics_R2?hash=item5d2586aa71&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116#ht_1299wt_939

Carver made a 5 channel version at one time for HT receivers.

Thanx, Danny; this looks like an interesting solution as well...

Mike LoManaco · July 2009

Keiko wrote: »

Simple, you're basically using the "tape out" as a "pre-out" All you need to do is run an IC from this terminal to an input on an integrated. I don't know about running from the speaker line levels. Doesn't sound like a great idea though. For me using the tape output on one of my receiver's to my Sound Projector works great.

But there's no way to do this with a power amp?

nguyendot · July 2009

My amp has volume controls

jimmydep · July 2009

Has anyone heard of a volume control that would take the RCA zone 2 output from the receiver and be able to control the volume and then send it via RCA to the amplifier which will power a pair of outdoor speakers.

Jimmy

jimmydep · July 2009

Keiko wrote: »

My Yammie's zone 2 has it's own volume control. I'm using this terminal into a 2nd receiver, which of course has it's own controls. And this 2nd receiver is the one I'm using the "tape out" terminal as a pre to my Sound Projector. It works like a charm.

BTW...Jimmy, I sent you a private message. I'm in dyer need of someone with plumbing knowledge.

Pm Sent

cnh · July 2009

comfortablycurt wrote: »

They are decent for their price point, but after researching them more, I really feel that there are better options out there for the same price. The other features aside, the lack of pre-outs is a HUGE flaw on their part. In hindsight, I really wish I hadn't bought this 606. These Onk's run WAAAAY too hot too. I know they're supposed to run that hot...but I really think they should have re-designed them to run a bit on the cooler side. These things are practically hot enough to fry an egg sometimes.

I don't believe the transformer would make a difference when using the AVR as a pre-pro...not positive on that though.

My Onk's doing it's job for now...but the more time I spend with it, the less I like it. That said, I'm really looking forward to upgrading and dumping the 606.

I might keep it around for a future bedroom rig...but I'll most likely sell it.

A couple of things here.

First the 605/6 sound 'better' with the M70s than with Rtis (except the 12s or A9s) for music. Even so the 805s not 806, and the 875/6, 905/6 are the more musical of the Onkyos--the larger transformers, higher current peaks and Burr Browns, and increased power reserves are 'largely' responsible for that. When I first hooked my M70s to the 805 the difference was OBVIOUS within minutes!

There are more 'musical' receivers out there. I'm not sure how much better the Marantz are...I don't think that much! The Pioneer Elite are a bit too neutral for my tastes in music. I actually prefer my 805 there...I know a lot of you sold that unit to get the ICE amps....and I do like the Pioneers....I just don't see a fantastic upgrade from my unit....and power wise....the 805 has got gobs of that for 8 ohms speakers...equal or greater than the Pios excepting perhaps the SC07 and of course the 7000 dollar flagship 09.

The downside...805s roll off a bit of the high end and yes you can boil an egg on the back right side of an Onkyo!...but to a guy who 'hates' edgy detail on the high end...that sounds right. It's a subjective matter. The units also make decent pre-pros for their Price to feature ratios....unless you can get the Pioneers at ridiculously low prices? I got my Onkyo for a little over 400. A tough price point to 'beat'?

Don't get me wrong I love the Elite for HT...but it's not cost effective to dump an 805 for an Elite at this point...and I prefer the 805 in two channel. But hey, that's 'me'. And maybe I'm off the deep end, or marching to the beat of a different 'drummer'.

cnh

woodsman10b · July 2009

Look on Ebay and Craigslist, you will find AVR's on both. Than just do a little homework and find something with preouts. I just acquired a Pioneer VSX-812d AVR for $36 on Ebay! Its 7.1 with preouts, and rated at 110 wpc. This is a replacement for my 15 yr old VSX-505(which I love musically) on my second setup, that does not have preouts but plenty of power rated at 135 wpc, and is only 5.1. Good luck!

Mike LoManaco · July 2009

Thanks for all the continued help and opinions on this subject, guys; it's appreciated...

For my current needs, the 90 watts per channel of the 605 is enough -- right now. Down the road, I didn't want to dump it just to add more power, so I wanted to add a power amp to it; seems there's really no way to do this without "ghetto rigging" the receiver, which I don't want to do.

kuntasensei · July 2009

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

Thanks for all the continued help and opinions on this subject, guys; it's appreciated...

For my current needs, the 90 watts per channel of the 605 is enough -- right now. Down the road, I didn't want to dump it just to add more power, so I wanted to add a power amp to it; seems there's really no way to do this without "ghetto rigging" the receiver, which I don't want to do.

So you know, 90w/ch on the 605 isn't really an honest 90w/ch; it's 90w/ch with only 2 channels driven. According to Sound & Vision's bench tests, with 5 channels driven, you're getting about 85w/ch and with 7 channels, about 80w/ch. And even considering that, Onkyos have a current limiter built in that will cut the power if you push them too far toward clipping. You're very likely only getting an honest 65w/ch with clean output on regular listening material. Fortunately, the 8 ohm Polks have a pretty high sensitivity rating, so they're easy to push.

And now you know why so many people push for external amplification and say never to buy an AVR without pre-outs. I'm thinking of getting a 3-channel amp for my 705 to give my RTi70 towers and CSi40 center a little breathing room.

Mike LoManaco · July 2009

kuntasensei wrote: »

So you know, 90w/ch on the 605 isn't really an honest 90w/ch; it's 90w/ch with only 2 channels driven.

I know; Onkyo now rates their specs with two channels driven. It's okay though because in "real world" listening situations, adding into the mix calibration levels and "IntelliVolume" gain settings and such, the amp packs enough "punch" for my listening environment.

According to Sound & Vision's bench tests, with 5 channels driven, you're getting about 85w/ch and with 7 channels, about 80w/ch. And even considering that, Onkyos have a current limiter built in that will cut the power if you push them too far toward clipping. You're very likely only getting an honest 65w/ch with clean output on regular listening material. Fortunately, the 8 ohm Polks have a pretty high sensitivity rating, so they're easy to push.

This is probably so, although some tech folks I have an e-mail relationship with from the company assured me the WRAT system and somewhat oversized internal components in almost all of their amps and receivers will ensure plenty of gain and current; at any rate, as I said above, based on calibration levels and personalized gain settings for a given input via the IntelliVolume system, the receiver seems to be packing enough wallop for my room.

Interestingly enough, I had a TX-SR600 before this in an old system before I moved, which was "rated" at 80 watts per channel at 8 ohms, and I recommended the unit for my parents who were shopping for a system for their media room at around the same time -- they got the 'SR600 too, and when I finally flew out to see the install job their guy did and to test the system, I gotta tell ya...their room was massive, with 12 foot cathedral ceilings and a distance of 15 feet from the main Polk channels to the sweet spot, and the '600 filled the room with massive amounts of pressure and energy. It didn't seem lacking. I expect the newer '605/606/607 etc. to exceed the 600's performance.

And now you know why so many people push for external amplification and say never to buy an AVR without pre-outs. I'm thinking of getting a 3-channel amp for my 705 to give my RTi70 towers and CSi40 center a little breathing room.

Yeah, the extra outboard amplification is sure tempting, but I would think some of the reasoning people would have behind buying the more expensive models in their lineup would be the added power -- I understand the entire "100 watts does NOT mean double the power of 50" rhetoric and what it actually TAKES to double power output, but I have a hard time believing your 705 doesn't really CRANK if you asked it to.

Mike LoManaco · July 2009

xcapri79 wrote: »

There are home amps available that have speaker inputs. Two such amps are the Audio Source 90w/ch Amp210 or 150w/ch Amp310. A link to the manual is below.

http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/302-652m.pdf

AMP210 SPECIFICATIONS
Stereo (8 ohm): 90W RMS per channel at 8 ohms,
20Hz - 20kHz, <0.1% THD+N
Stereo (4 ohm): 125W per channel at 4 ohms,
20Hz-20kHz, <0.1% THD+N
Bridged Mono (8 ohm): 250W RMS at 8 ohms,
20Hz - 20kHz, <0.2% THD+N

AMP310 SPECIFICATIONS
Stereo (8 ohm): 150W RMS per channel at 8 ohms,
20Hz - 20kHz, <0.1% THD+N
Stereo (4 ohm): 225W per channel at 4 ohms,
20Hz-20kHz, <0.1% THD+N
Bridged Mono (8 ohm): 450W RMS at 8 ohms,
20Hz - 20kHz, <0.1% THD+N

The amps are available from different suppliers such as Parts Express or Amazon. I own a Stellar Labs SL250 from MCM which has speaker inputs and it is essentially that same amp as the Audio Source Amp200 or Amp210. They are 4 ohm capable and can power LSi speakers. I run a pair of LSi9's off the SL250 with a Pioneer PD-F07 CD player as a source. It is a good bedroom two channel set up for me.

Thanx Capri; but are these stereo 2 channel amps? I would need something multichannel...

kuntasensei · July 2009

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

This is probably so, although some tech folks I have an e-mail relationship with from the company assured me the WRAT system and somewhat oversized internal components in almost all of their amps and receivers will ensure plenty of gain and current; at any rate, as I said above, based on calibration levels and personalized gain settings for a given input via the IntelliVolume system, the receiver seems to be packing enough wallop for my room.

Well... WRAT is just their design that minimizes negative feedback. It's not so much about the power as it is about low noise and bandwidth greater than your typical 20Hz-20kHz "full range". I could go into how external amps have a way better damping factor, how additional power can deal with transients better, etc... but as long as it's working in your room, that's what matters.

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

Yeah, the extra outboard amplification is sure tempting, but I would think some of the reasoning people would have behind buying the more expensive models in their lineup would be the added power -- I understand the entire "100 watts does NOT mean double the power of 50" rhetoric and what it actually TAKES to double power output, but I have a hard time believing your 705 doesn't really CRANK if you asked it to.

Well, it's a balance. If you have a small/mid room, a 60x will probably be adequate, especially if you don't typically listen anywhere near reference level. I was fine with the 60x series for a long time with no issues. I stepped up to the 705 for 3 reasons: 1) pre-outs in case I wanted to get an amp, 2) more power than my 60x, and 3) Audyssey MultEQ XT. The 60x series only has 2EQ, which doesn't equalize the subwoofer at all. MultEQ XT was something I wanted to try to really nail flat response with my SVS sub... and I gotta tell you, once I learned how to do the setup RIGHT, the results were amazing. I spent years fiddling with equalization to get flat response from my sub, and after MultEQ XT, I ended up zeroing out my EQ and using it only as a subsonic filter to prevent bottoming of the driver. It also took away the slight harshness my Polks had with stringed instruments, which was an unexpected surprise.

Oh, and with all channels crossed at 80Hz and 500w each to the SVS and Buttkicker, HELL YES my 705 cranks if I ask it to! But is that gonna stop me from getting a 3-channel amp to give my front soundstage some nice clean power to really shine? NOPE. Looks like I'll have enough discretionary fundage to toss in an Emotiva XPA-3 in the next few months.

Mike LoManaco · July 2009

xcapri79 wrote: »

You could use two Amp310's to drive your front two speakers and center speaker which are the most demanding and leave the surrounds connected to the Onkyo. Just a suggestion.

Eventually you will want to upgrade to an receiver with preouts. The amps can then be connected in the traditional way through the preamp inputs. This also gives you the flexibility to run a surroundbar off the receiver speaker outputs for general TV listening, and the main speakers via the amps for HT or serious music listening. Sometimes you don't always need or want the big sound. Another thought.

Thanks!

Using a Receiver With No Pre Outs as a Pre/Pro?

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