Using a Receiver With No Pre Outs as a Pre/Pro?

Mike LoManaco

kuntasensei wrote: »

Well... WRAT is just their design that minimizes negative feedback. It's not so much about the power as it is about low noise and bandwidth greater than your typical 20Hz-20kHz "full range".

From my knowledge, their Wide Range Amplifier Technology goes beyond minimizing negative feedback -- it allows for "breathing room" and better control over volume in the lower part of the scale, eventually leading up to more headroom towards maximum volume. This is how it was always explained to me, notably by Juan (his last name escapes me now) at Onkyo's engineering division. In a nutshell, this WRAT "technology" allows even their smaller powered receivers and amps to deliver some high current when needed; again, how it was explained to me and shown via demos I attended at CES.

I could go into how external amps have a way better damping factor, how additional power can deal with transients better, etc... but as long as it's working in your room, that's what matters.

Oh yes, I totally understand that -- the additional outboard power can indeed offer all these elements to deal with the transients on DVD and Blu-ray frequency bursts and such, better than most onboard amp power could via receivers; I just think Onkyo's amps even in their lower-line "600" series receivers aren't as "weak" or "forgettable" as most people make them out to be. Set up correctly, I think these things kick **** for the money.

Well, it's a balance. If you have a small/mid room, a 60x will probably be adequate, especially if you don't typically listen anywhere near reference level. I was fine with the 60x series for a long time with no issues.

Indeed; but as I was saying (was it this thread or the other Onkyo Owners one I started? I can't even remember anymore...), I ran a SR600 in a previous system for awhile in a small studio apartment setup, so the "rated" power of 80 watts X 6 was plenty for the most part...and then I recommended to my folks (my dad has since passed unfortunately) they get the 600 for their media room...when I cranked the 600 up in their room, playing different DVDs, this think ROCKED. And this was in a room with 12 foot vaulted ceilings and a distance of 15 feet from the front soundstage to the sweet spot -- the "80 watts per channel" was plenty loud, believe that or not, leading me to believe that the newer 605/606, etc. would crank in a larger room as well.

I stepped up to the 705 for 3 reasons: 1) pre-outs in case I wanted to get an amp, 2) more power than my 60x, and 3) Audyssey MultEQ XT. The 60x series only has 2EQ, which doesn't equalize the subwoofer at all. MultEQ XT was something I wanted to try to really nail flat response with my SVS sub... and I gotta tell you, once I learned how to do the setup RIGHT, the results were amazing. I spent years fiddling with equalization to get flat response from my sub, and after MultEQ XT, I ended up zeroing out my EQ and using it only as a subsonic filter to prevent bottoming of the driver. It also took away the slight harshness my Polks had with stringed instruments, which was an unexpected surprise.

Legitimate reasons for upgrade; I was merely saying that for most people with the budget for Onkyo's more expensive models, a big chunk of their reasoning has to be more power.

Oh, and with all channels crossed at 80Hz and 500w each to the SVS and Buttkicker, HELL YES my 705 cranks if I ask it to!

You have separate amps going to your sub systems? And the mains are being powered by the 705?

How are the SVS subs? I think that's going to be my upgrade from the PSW10...

But is that gonna stop me from getting a 3-channel amp to give my front soundstage some nice clean power to really shine? NOPE. Looks like I'll have enough discretionary fundage to toss in an Emotiva XPA-3 in the next few months.

I bet your 705 -- and this is just my opinion -- will provide enough clean power for your front soundstage; I say put the cash towards something else! Well, I too am considering going the multichannel power amp route, so forget that last statement...:D:cool:

cnh

Really depends on what kind of speakers he's running. For my M70/CS2/M30 set up the Onkyo 805 has MORE than enough power reserves for HT.

But if I were running an all LSI system even the 50 pound Onkyo wouldn't be able to do enough. You'd need external amps.

On the other hand, I agree, the 605 (I also had one) can PUT out some sound in a small to medium sized room. Onkyos, in general have good power, for fairly efficient speakers. They do a good job with that High Current design. And if the 60x had pre-outs they would be hard to beat--in the feature to price-ratio.

cnh

Mike LoManaco

cnh wrote: »

On the other hand, I agree, the 605 (I also had one) can PUT out some sound in a small to medium sized room. Onkyos, in general have good power, for fairly efficient speakers. They do a good job with that High Current design. And if the 60x had pre-outs they would be hard to beat--in the feature to price-ratio.

cnh

I am in a very small room right now, about six feet from the front soundstage to the sweet spot, so the 605 has plenty of tactile impact; but I am willing to bet that it would fill a largish (not HUGE) room nicely with pressurization also, based on my experience running an older SR600 for my folks in their rather large, cavernous media room with only 80 "rated" watts per channel. The amps in that older Onkyo seemed to fill the soundstage with adequate volume pressure levels.

kuntasensei

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

You have separate amps going to your sub systems? And the mains are being powered by the 705?

Yes. My SVS is one of their older passive subs - the 20-39CS+, meaning it has no internal amp. They sold it to me as a package with a Samson 1000 rackmount amp (500w/channel), which has been running 24/7 for over 4 years now and is still rock solid. I'm using one amp channel for the SVS and one for the Buttkicker mounted to my couch. All other channels are running off of the 705.

As my pics in the Onkyo thread show, I'm running RTi70 floorstanders and a CSi40 center up front, which is why I'm thinking the XPA-3 will be a nice addition to my setup. Not that they're all that power hungry ('cause the 8 ohm Polks are damn efficient), but I'd like to give them some extra power and lower their crossover points a bit to improve music listening. I have 4 RTi28s for my surrounds, which the 705 ought to more than capably power once it's no longer having to push the front three speakers.

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

How are the SVS subs? I think that's going to be my upgrade from the PSW10...

I was originally running a Polk PSW350 before the SVS (which now resides at a co-worker's house and is still going strong). There's absolutely NO comparison; the difference in sound is equivalent to looking through a clean lens after looking through one covered in Vaseline. The SVS trolls so deep and hard that it not only made me feel the movies in a totally new way, it made every other speaker in my setup sound better. Plus, the guys at SVS are a dream to do business with and are more than willing to assist you with any setup questions you might have. On the price v. performance end, you might also consider Hsu and ED subs as well, since they offer a similar value to the SVS lineup.

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

I bet your 705 -- and this is just my opinion -- will provide enough clean power for your front soundstage; I say put the cash towards something else! Well, I too am considering going the multichannel power amp route, so forget that last statement...:D:cool:

"Enough clean power"? NO SUCH THING, SIR!

Mike LoManaco

kuntasensei wrote: »

Yes. My SVS is one of their older passive subs - the 20-39CS+, meaning it has no internal amp. They sold it to me as a package with a Samson 1000 rackmount amp (500w/channel), which has been running 24/7 for over 4 years now and is still rock solid. I'm using one amp channel for the SVS and one for the Buttkicker mounted to my couch. All other channels are running off of the 705.

Got-cha.

Are there any self-powered SVSs you would recommend -- or do they all require outboard amplification? Not that familiar with the brand other than I know they're famous for bass. :eek:

I was originally running a Polk PSW350 before the SVS (which now resides at a co-worker's house and is still going strong). There's absolutely NO comparison; the difference in sound is equivalent to looking through a clean lens after looking through one covered in Vaseline. The SVS trolls so deep and hard that it not only made me feel the movies in a totally new way, it made every other speaker in my setup sound better. Plus, the guys at SVS are a dream to do business with and are more than willing to assist you with any setup questions you might have. On the price v. performance end, you might also consider Hsu and ED subs as well, since they offer a similar value to the SVS lineup.

Thank you; very good information to have and know -- I figured the change to an SVS sub would be nearly night and day, but I wanted to be sure. I'll probably get a couple of those for my next upgrade and when we move to a bigger place.

"Enough clean power"? NO SUCH THING, SIR!

By Golly -- I Think You're Right!! :eek:

Jesus H. Christ on the cross...did I just type "BY GOLLY"??? :eek::eek::eek::cool:

kuntasensei

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

Are there any self-powered SVSs you would recommend -- or do they all require outboard amplification? Not that familiar with the brand other than I know they're famous for bass. :eek:

SVS doesn't sell passive subs anymore, so they'll all have their own internal amplification. As for what I'd recommend... that's dependent on your budget and room size. That said, even the $449 PB10-NSD will handily trounce what you're using now. The current sub that most closely matches what I have is their $949 PC12-Plus (though I paid around $1,100 4 years ago for my setup, including EQ).

Mike LoManaco

kuntasensei wrote: »

SVS doesn't sell passive subs anymore, so they'll all have their own internal amplification. As for what I'd recommend... that's dependent on your budget and room size. That said, even the $449 PB10-NSD will handily trounce what you're using now. The current sub that most closely matches what I have is their $949 PC12-Plus (though I paid around $1,100 4 years ago for my setup, including EQ).

What's their most "affordable" 15 incher?

comfortablycurt

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

What's their most "affordable" 15 incher?

SVS doesn't sell a 15" sub. The PB13 Ultra has a 13" driver...and runs about $1500-1600 IIRC.

Mike LoManaco

comfortablycurt wrote: »

SVS doesn't sell a 15" sub. The PB13 Ultra has a 13" driver...and runs about $1500-1600 IIRC.

I didn't think they did; good to know too -- a 13" is an odd driver size; where did they come up with that?

kuntasensei

Mike LoManaco wrote: »

I didn't think they did; good to know too -- a 13" is an odd driver size; where did they come up with that?

A lot of internal R&D and a former employee of TC Sounds (who made the original woofers for SVS when they first started their company). All of their woofers are now designed and assembled in-house, so they can make 'em whatever size they want. I bought my sub very early in their career, so my original woofer was the TC Sounds one. Upgraded to their in-house dB12.3 driver and couldn't be happier. They're making some amazing woofers over at SVS.

But trust me... woofer size isn't the concern here. It's the enclosure volume and porting that matter.

Mike LoManaco

kuntasensei wrote: »

But trust me... woofer size isn't the concern here. It's the enclosure volume and porting that matter.

Sounds logical.