The RTi12s Are Up and Running, But...
Mike LoManaco
Posts: 974
...they don't seem to want to play nice with my PSW350 crossed over at 80Hz...
Is there another recommended crossover point for the 12's that would allow them to provide some of the bass they're capable of, yet not overpower or rob from the PSW350?
Is there another recommended crossover point for the 12's that would allow them to provide some of the bass they're capable of, yet not overpower or rob from the PSW350?
Post edited by Mike LoManaco on
Comments
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Try fullrange
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Set the 12s to large and the sub to kick in at 80Hz. Dial the sub volume and crossover up or down per your listening preference.
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I would recommend 60hz
Fronts: Energy RC-70
Center: Energy RC-LCR
Surrounds: Energy Veritas 1.0CM
Subwoofer: SVS PC12-NSD
Receiver: Onkyo TX-SR705
Amplifier: Denon POA-2200 w/ Ben's ICs
Pics of my setup (click me) -
Try fullrange
Leroy,
I would rather not run these full-range; I'm already using a receiver that's not really ideally suited for speakers like these -- I need to take all the strain off the receiver's amp as possible... -
SolidSqual wrote: »Set the 12s to large
In the AVR?and the sub to kick in at 80Hz.
At the back of the sub? -
I would recommend 60hz
Thanks Menasor,
Set the mains in the AVR to roll of at 60Hz? Would this allow more bass to come from the RTi12's?
I just don't want to drown out the PSW350, either... -
Have you run audyssey?
I'm assuming not, because a while back you said you "preferred manual adjustments".
Run audyssey, then report back.
How exactly are they "not playing nice"? Is one overpowering the other? Not blending well? We need more info.The nirvana inducer-
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Mike LoManaco wrote: »Thanks Menasor,
Set the mains in the AVR to roll of at 60Hz? Would this allow more bass to come from the RTi12's?
I just don't want to drown out the PSW350, either...
If the 12's overpower the sub then it might be time to upgrade it or recalibrate your system. The most important thing you can do is play around with placement and the setting to see what sounds best to you. Every room and peoples taste will be different. -
comfortablycurt wrote: »Have you run audyssey?
I'm assuming not, because a while back you said you "preferred manual adjustments".
Run audyssey, then report back.
How exactly are they "not playing nice"? Is one overpowering the other? Not blending well? We need more info.
Hey 'Curt,
Thanks for the input. No, as you suspected, I haven't run Audyssey.
It just seems as though the PSW350 isn't as "tactile" in slam as it once was, and that's with raising the sub's actual volume knob and level inside the AVR; I was assuming this was because perhaps the 12's are "robbing" it of some LFE, but it's difficult to explain...
I suppose I am just asking for the optimum setup for the 12's to be run not as full range along with the PSW350.
Here are my settings, for reference:
On the rear of the sub, PHASE set to "0" (although I could swear 180 gave more slam...) and LOW PASS set all the way up to 160Hz...
Is this correct?
Further, I was never able to get any concrete answers from my installers I worked with on this setup nor anyone online as far as if I had the actual 12's connected physically correct -- that is, I'm not running them bi-amped, just normal into the Onkyo 605, so I connected the speaker cables to the TOP set of terminals on each RTi12, leaving the gold-plated "belt" between the terminals on...is this correct? -
If the 12's overpower the sub then it might be time to upgrade it or recalibrate your system. The most important thing you can do is play around with placement and the setting to see what sounds best to you. Every room and peoples taste will be different.
I understand that at a certain point it's a matter of taste, but there are some concrete facts that need to be looked into here; firstly, I have been told that the RTi12's can actually outboom a sub like my PSW350 and may put out more bass than the sub is capable of -- but at this point, I don't have the resources to do any more upgrades, so I must make the 12's work with the PSW350 as best they can.
So, I need to find a way for the 12's to co-exist with the 350 and have them play together seamlessly; I want the 350 to put out all the low bass, but get some of the bass/midbass the RTi12's are capable of at the same time...
I'm looking for crossover suggestions based on these criteria... -
It makes no difference which pair of inputs on the 12's are connected. That's what the jumpers for. You're fine with them in the top terminals.
It may very well be that you need to set the sub for 180 in your situation. Try it again, and see if it sounds better.
Try audyssey, and try doing some listening with the subs phase switch in either position.
Yes, the subs lowpass should be turned all the way up.
You have the sub connected over LFE from your Onkyo, correct?
What is the subs crossover set at? 80 I'm assuming? Set it to 100 or 120hz and report back.
We'll get you up and running.:)The nirvana inducer-
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Marantz UD5005 universal player
Parasound Halo P5 preamp
Parasound HCA-1200II power amp
PolkAudio LSi9's/PolkAudio SDA 2A's/PolkAudio Monitor 7A's
Audioquest Speaker Cables and IC's -
Mike is there anybody here that lives close to you to help you out? it just seems like you have struggled with your system for sometime now, and if someone can come over to help you out it might help you get your learn on. sometimes if someone is there to help guide you it's easier to pick up.
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comfortablycurt wrote: »It makes no difference which pair of inputs on the 12's are connected. That's what the jumpers for. You're fine with them in the top terminals.
Thank you. This ensures they're just getting normal power loads from the 605's main channels, correct?It may very well be that you need to set the sub for 180 in your situation. Try it again, and see if it sounds better.
I'll run more tests and get back...Try audyssey, and try doing some listening with the subs phase switch in either position.
Yes, the subs lowpass should be turned all the way up.
Even though "all the way up" on the 350 is 160Hz? This isn't "too high"? I suppose not, because I am using the AVR for crossover control...You have the sub connected over LFE from your Onkyo, correct?
Yes -- one subwoofer RCA cable is going fom the 605's LFE OUT to the PSW350's UNFILTERED LFE IN. That's it.What is the subs crossover set at? 80 I'm assuming? Set it to 100 or 120hz and report back.
Do you mean for the main channel rolloff inside the AVR? Yes, that's at 80Hz for ALL channels.We'll get you up and running.:)
Thank you...:D -
Set the mains to large, becasue they are very large, and run the room eq. Then tailor the sub to your liking. How you like it.:)
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Mike LoManaco wrote: »Thank you. This ensures they're just getting normal power loads from the 605's main channels, correct?
Yes, that's just for bi-wiring purposes. You'd need to remove the jumpers between the posts if you wanted to bi-wire. I wouldn't worry about that too much though personally.Even though "all the way up" on the 350 is 160Hz? This isn't "too high"? I suppose not, because I am using the AVR for crossover control...
Yes. The crossover control on the sub itself should be completely bypassed by simply connecting something to the LFE input, but it's best to turn it up all the way just to avoid the slim possibility of double filtering the signal. It's just to get it completely out of the signal path. Your AVR will be controlling the crossover point.
Do you mean for the main channel rolloff inside the AVR? Yes, that's at 80Hz for ALL channels.
Yes, that's what I was referring to. I'd try setting the crossover for the sub(in the AVR) to 120hz. That's going to give the sub a lot more slam, since it will be carrying a wider range of low frequencies.
A movies soundtrack contains LFE content all the way up to 120hz anyway, and is the best point for it to be set at. It also makes for a much more natural rolloff between the sub and the mains in my experience.
All of that being said, there is no one "best" setting. You're going to need to play around, and try different settings in order to see what sounds best to YOUR ears.The nirvana inducer-
APC H10 Power Conditioner
Marantz UD5005 universal player
Parasound Halo P5 preamp
Parasound HCA-1200II power amp
PolkAudio LSi9's/PolkAudio SDA 2A's/PolkAudio Monitor 7A's
Audioquest Speaker Cables and IC's -
Setting the crossover to 60hz would give your RTi12's some more room to flex their muscles, while still giving your sub a good workout with all content 60hz and below. I set my RC-70's to 60hz crossover because they are full range towers like your RTi12's. Works great for me.
Also, definitely run Audyssey
Fronts: Energy RC-70
Center: Energy RC-LCR
Surrounds: Energy Veritas 1.0CM
Subwoofer: SVS PC12-NSD
Receiver: Onkyo TX-SR705
Amplifier: Denon POA-2200 w/ Ben's ICs
Pics of my setup (click me) -
Conradicles wrote: »Set the mains to large, becasue they are very large, and run the room eq. Then tailor the sub to your liking. How you like it.:)
Sometimes it doesn't matter how physically "large" a speaker is; it has to do with the strain a setting like Full Range puts on a receiver -- in my case, I am running a receiver that shouldn't even be hooked up to power pig speakers like the RTi12's, so I need to keep the strain off this receiver as much as possible. Running these as Full Range I don't think is the right move here, unless others chime in with their thoughts about it... -
Mike LoManaco wrote: »Sometimes it doesn't matter how physically "large" a speaker is; it has to do with the strain a setting like Full Range puts on a receiver -- in my case, I am running a receiver that shouldn't even be hooked up to power pig speakers like the RTi12's, so I need to keep the strain off this receiver as much as possible. Running these as Full Range I don't think is the right move here, unless others chime in with their thoughts about it...
If you think full range is too much, and 80hz is too little, then you should start lowering the crossover in increments of 10 until you find the balance you like (starting with 70hz)
Fronts: Energy RC-70
Center: Energy RC-LCR
Surrounds: Energy Veritas 1.0CM
Subwoofer: SVS PC12-NSD
Receiver: Onkyo TX-SR705
Amplifier: Denon POA-2200 w/ Ben's ICs
Pics of my setup (click me) -
comfortablycurt wrote: »Yes, that's just for bi-wiring purposes. You'd need to remove the jumpers between the posts if you wanted to bi-wire. I wouldn't worry about that too much though personally.
Thank you.Yes. The crossover control on the sub itself should be completely bypassed by simply connecting something to the LFE input, but it's best to turn it up all the way just to avoid the slim possibility of double filtering the signal. It's just to get it completely out of the signal path. Your AVR will be controlling the crossover point.
So, 160Hz is okay for the maximum level of the knob?Yes, that's what I was referring to. I'd try setting the crossover for the sub(in the AVR) to 120hz. That's going to give the sub a lot more slam, since it will be carrying a wider range of low frequencies.
I don't have a crossover setting for the sub itself in the AVR -- do you mean the "LOW PASS FILTER of LFE" setting on the Onkyos? Oh, if so, YES, this is set to 120Hz...;)A movies soundtrack contains LFE content all the way up to 120hz anyway, and is the best point for it to be set at. It also makes for a much more natural rolloff between the sub and the mains in my experience.
Indeed...the LPF of LFE is at 120Hz... -
Setting the crossover to 60hz would give your RTi12's some more room to flex their muscles, while still giving your sub a good workout with all content 60hz and below. I set my RC-70's to 60hz crossover because they are full range towers like your RTi12's. Works great for me.
Also, definitely run Audyssey
Thank you, Menasor...I will try 60Hz, because your explanation makes a great deal of sense to me and is what I was trying to get at...:) -
Yeah for Menasor!!!
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I think you need to run the Audessey in order to get the most out of your setup. From there you should be able to fine tune making manual adjustments. Those 12s are beast, so in order to get the absolute very best out of your speakers add an external power amp. If you refuse to run audessey then don't expect excellent performance. These adjustments are setup to make room corrections, etc. If you don't take advantage of it, then you should expect some flaws in your SQ.Shoot the jumper.....................BALLIN.............!!!!!
Home Theater Pics in the Showcase :cool:
http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showcase/view.php?userid=73580 -
I think you need to run the Audessey in order to get the most out of your setup. From there you should be able to fine tune making manual adjustments. Those 12s are beast, so in order to get the absolute very best out of your speakers add an external power amp. If you refuse to run audessey then don't expect excellent performance. These adjustments are setup to make room corrections, etc. If you don't take advantage of it, then you should expect some flaws in your SQ.
Sher,
I realize the 12's are beasts, as I have been trying to explain in this thread regarding the fact that I need my AVR to have the least amount of strain on it to power these things...I simply CANNOT, however, right now, add an external power amp for them, so I need to work with what I have...
Your assesments and feelings on Audyssey are a bit skewed IMO however; I have heard dozens upon dozens of horror stories regarding people getting ridiculously "off" readings from running it, and every time I have run it on my 605, the results were wildly different. I simply just trust my judgements on certain readings Audyssey collects -- the crossover points is a great example. This system pegged my R20 bookshelves as "large" with really poor levels in my last setup, and I'd rather just adjust manually. I don't think by skipping this step it's going to "harm" the connection of my 12's to the 605 in any way -- that's also why I am asking everyone here with the knowledge of these speakers for better physical overriding settings that may work for this combination (RTi12's and PSW350). -
I think your overthinking it Mike.. Run the Audyssey and make the adjustments to your liking.. I also think the fronts should be set to small and let the sub take care of most of the lower end at 80hz if your worried about the 12's working your AVR to hard.
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Yeah for Larry!!!
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Conradicles wrote: »Yeah for Larry!!!
Dude, not for nothing, but what are you doing? -
TOOLFORLIFEFAN wrote: »I also think the fronts should be set to small and let the sub take care of most of the lower end at 80hz if your worried about the 12's working your AVR to hard.
That's what I have been saying about the setup, Tool -- with my particular low-powered AVR, I don't think the RTi12's should be set to "Full Range" in any circumstance; but now the question becomes whether I roll them off at 80Hz or 60...
In my particular Onkyo, there is no selection for "Large" or "Small" for the crossover setup -- you need to specifiy an exact value for the crossover...so, I need to figure out which rolloff value is better for the 12's with the PSW350, 80 or 60Hz... -
Mike LoManaco wrote: »That's what I have been saying about the setup, Tool -- with my particular low-powered AVR, I don't think the RTi12's should be set to "Full Range" in any circumstance; but now the question becomes whether I roll them off at 80Hz or 60...
The answer to that is very easy to find out.
Try both, and decide which sounds better. There's no way that we can tell you which setting is going to sound better in your room, to your ears.
And yes, 160hz is just fine for the XO control on the sub itself.
Also, yes, I was referring to the Low Pass filter of the LFE channel.The nirvana inducer-
APC H10 Power Conditioner
Marantz UD5005 universal player
Parasound Halo P5 preamp
Parasound HCA-1200II power amp
PolkAudio LSi9's/PolkAudio SDA 2A's/PolkAudio Monitor 7A's
Audioquest Speaker Cables and IC's -
Mike LoManaco wrote: »That's what I have been saying about the setup, Tool -- with my particular low-powered AVR, I don't think the RTi12's should be set to "Full Range" in any circumstance; but now the question becomes whether I roll them off at 80Hz or 60...
Looks like you have tried both Mike, you may struggle with this till you can get an amp for your 12's.
Mike even if you could spring for an Adcom GFA-545 sometime soon you would be a happy camper..
