A great way to embrace Vinyl...

hearingimpared

From what I can see it is not a tapered spindle that would be used to pressure fit the platter to the spindle. MOOT point.

I don't see anything wrong with being able to have some vertical play with the spindle so when you pull up on the spindle and it reseats itself down into the well that is okay because I think this is a form of isolation.

A couple of things. Could you please post a picture of the underside of the platter? Also, see if one or both of those rings fit pricisely over the spindle and set perfectly over what appears to be a brass base that the spindle is in. These rings may be the method of adjusting the height of the platter on the mount. Sort of like shims. They would have to be machined precisely if this is the case and you may just place one over the spindle then mount the platter and see if it spins correctly. I won't really know until I get a look at the underside of the platter to see if there are cutouts in it for the ring(s) to fit in. This is all conjecture right now as I'm trying to figure out how the platter mount is fitted to the platter to grasp or fit in a notch(s) to make the platter spin.

Also, if possible can you post a picture of the underside of the plinth?

We can go further from there.

EDIT; I just read the ad again because I can't remember if this is a direct drive or belt driven table. The DD in the model number suggests to me that it is a direct drive table. Which is it?

Polkersince85

Here's a pic of my spindle on the DD-40. It is tapered. It has a small amount of upward movement, maybe 2 mm. Check and make sure the motor mount screws are tight on top.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=40049&d=1241574965

hearingimpared

Polkersince85 wrote: »

Here's a pic of my spindle on the DD-40. It is tapered. It has a small amount of upward movement, maybe 2 mm. Check and make sure the motor mount screws are tight on top.

http://www.polkaudio.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=40049&d=1241574965

Damn Bro that is one beautiful work of art TT you have there.

Your's being tapered uses gravity to press the platter and hold it in place to spin. My old VPI MKII had a tapered spindle that you would press the delrin platter onto and the taper would hold it in place.

I don't see that in tcrros's table. It seems like there are slots like a tongue in groove joint, well sort of.

tcrossma

I'll get lots of pictures of all the parts up tomorrow. Had a busy day today, so didn't have time. Thanks to all.

hearingimpared

tcrossma wrote: »

I'll get lots of pictures of all the parts up tomorrow. Had a busy day today, so didn't have time. Thanks to all.

Same here Bro. Get some pics posted up and as much info as you have and we'll get this resolved tomorrow night when I get home unless of course someone else beats me to you!:)

Joe

Polkersince85

The shops that made the Micro parts were extremely precise. The spindle on my BL91L was ground to 4 microns. Rumor has it that they also made the SME stuff. SME marketed Micro in the U.S. I am amazed that he is having these issues with the spindle. I think it will boil down to the motor mounts loose or the spindle not seated properly.

hearingimpared

Polkersince85 wrote: »

The shops that made the Micro parts were extremely precise. The spindle on my BL91L was ground to 4 microns. Rumor has it that they also made the SME stuff. SME marketed Micro in the U.S. I am amazed that he is having these issues with the spindle. I think it will boil down to the motor mounts loose or the spindle not seated properly.

I agree but we need to make sure he is mounting the platter correctly. I think the only way to help him with this is to see pictures of the underside of his platter as well as the underside of his plinth.

Having an SME pedigree is excellent as they are famous for their precision manufacturing of all parts to make the whole. My SME V tonearm is a excellent example of their precision work and that work is reflected in the price of anything made by SME.

billbillw

Polkersince85 wrote: »

Rumor has it that they also made the SME stuff.

I think that rumor is questionable. Micro Seiki was manufactured in Japan, SME tonarms in the 70's were made in England.

However, there is no doubt that Micro Seiki made some of the highest quality turntables of their time.

tcrossma

Ok, here's some pictures. I've also posted a video on YouTube showing how the platter spins (or doesn't spin, more specifically).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2v_dBK7412g

On the underside of the plinth there are two holes directly under the spindle, which have what appears to be two adjustment knobs requiring a small screwdriver. Might these be a way to adjust the height/level of the spindle? I didn't want to go fooling with anything without knowing more about it, so I left them alone for now.

Thanks guys.

SCompRacer

tcrossma wrote: »

.....what appears to be two adjustment knobs requiring a small screwdriver.

Most likely 45 and 33 master speed adjusment pots on the circuit board. It is one of the first places I go and clean on a DD table that won't maintain correct speed, but I've never seen a dirty pot prevent the motor from working at all.

Have you contacted the seller? Shipping a table with the platter on the spindle, even if it is covered in bubble wrap, is not the best way. Lateral forces on the spindle from rough handling, possible damage to the machined taper, hammering the motor bearing thrust surface, etc. If you are comfortable with surgery, you could unplug it and remove the bottom cover to see if a wire has broken off.

The MA-505 is a great arm. I had a MK II with S arm and two different length straight arms on my dual arm configured Space Deck.

nooshinjohn

In one of your shots, I see wires in the area of the spindle. If you are comfortable with it, I would take the bottom of the table off and take a look for a broken mounting inside. It may be a simple fix.

I feel terrible that you are going through all this as I am the one that recommended this table to you and everyone else here. If I can help in any way, let me know.

tcrossma

thanks guys. Just to clarify, the motor does in fact spin, and I think that if the platter wasn't physically hitting against the table surface that it would be working correctly.

There are two knbbs on the top of the plinth for 33 and 45 speed control -- given that, are those adjustments directly underneath the spindle on the underside of the plinth still related to speed control as well?

I would feel comfortable with opening it up, want to talk to the seller first. I've e-mailed him and he seems like a good guy, so I'm sure he'll do what he can to help out.

billbillw

OK, I watched your video. You should always place the platter on the spindle using two hands through the holes in the platter. Gently place it on as level as possible. Let gravity seat the platter. Then, you can't really judge how it spins until it is under power. I've had tables that make slight ringing sounds like that when you are brushing it off, but not when it is under power.

As far as powering/spinng, it looks like the table doesn't start spinning when you turn on the power. It won't start spinning until you press the cue ^ button. If you are doing that and not getting any spin, there is something not right.

tcrossma

billbillw wrote: »

OK, I watched your video. You should always place the platter on the spindle using two hands through the holes in the platter. Gently place it on as level as possible. Let gravity seat the platter. Then, you can't really judge how it spins until it is under power. I've had tables that make slight ringing sounds like that when you are brushing it off, but not when it is under power.

As far as powering/spinng, it looks like the table doesn't start spinning when you turn on the power. It won't start spinning until you press the cue ^ button. If you are doing that and not getting any spin, there is something not right.

The motor starts when I press the ON (cue ^) button (they are the same button), like I did in the video. And sometimes it will start spinning the platter. But the platter is still scraping against the plinth and still makes the same scraping noise as in the video when I manually turn it. The front of the platter is physically hitting the plinth, which is preventing the motor from turning the platter smoothly.

When I lightly push down on the platter at the back of the table, it levels the platter out and it spins smoothly. It seems to me as if the platter is sitting too close to the plinth and causing it to scape slightly.

If there was an adjustment either to make the spindle sit a little higher or to level it out *very* slightly so that the front didn't scrape, I think that might solve the problem.

hearingimpared

Polkersince85 wrote: »

The shops that made the Micro parts were extremely precise. The spindle on my BL91L was ground to 4 microns. Rumor has it that they also made the SME stuff. SME marketed Micro in the U.S. I am amazed that he is having these issues with the spindle. I think it will boil down to the motor mounts loose or the spindle not seated properly.

billbillw wrote: »

I think that rumor is questionable. Micro Seiki was manufactured in Japan, SME tonarms in the 70's were made in England.

However, there is no doubt that Micro Seiki made some of the highest quality turntables of their time.

I read the orginal post wrong. I thought it read that Micro Seiki stuff was made by SME! DUH! Thus my reply! DUH!

Just for the record SME tonearms are still made in England.

tcrossma

billbillw wrote: »

You should always place the platter on the spindle using two hands through the holes in the platter. Gently place it on as level as possible. Let gravity seat the platter.

And yes, thank you, I had been doing it that way but I only had one hand available when shooting the video and I tried to be as careful as possible, which I think I was.

SCompRacer

Here are pics of a Kenwood KD-3070. Speed adjustments on top left, capped 33 and 45 pot access holes on the bottom.

If the motor isn't loose and the platter is rubbing on the plinth, there is a possibility that the motor armature thrust bearing has been damaged/dented. This would cause the armature to sit further down in the motor housing. The motor armature would have to be removed to check that. (You should have the recommended bearing lube available if you remove the armature). If the spindle were bent, the rub contact point wouldn't remain at the front.

I can see some marks inside the platter spindle taper. Can you see any scratches with raised metal? A Qtip can be inserted and ran around the taper to check. Something like that can cause the platter to not seat fully, or sit crooked on the spindle.

hearingimpared

SCompRacer wrote: »

Most likely 45 and 33 master speed adjusment pots on the circuit board. It is one of the first places I go and clean on a DD table that won't maintain correct speed, but I've never seen a dirty pot prevent the motor from working at all.

Have you contacted the seller? Shipping a table with the platter on the spindle, even if it is covered in bubble wrap, is not the best way. Lateral forces on the spindle from rough handling, possible damage to the machined taper, hammering the motor bearing thrust surface, etc. If you are comfortable with surgery, you could unplug it and remove the bottom cover to see if a wire has broken off.

The MA-505 is a great arm. I had a MK II with S arm and two different length straight arms on my dual arm configured Space Deck.

tcrossma wrote: »

thanks guys. Just to clarify, the motor does in fact spin, and I think that if the platter wasn't physically hitting against the table surface that it would be working correctly.

There are two knbbs on the top of the plinth for 33 and 45 speed control -- given that, are those adjustments directly underneath the spindle on the underside of the plinth still related to speed control as well?

I would feel comfortable with opening it up, want to talk to the seller first. I've e-mailed him and he seems like a good guy, so I'm sure he'll do what he can to help out.

billbillw wrote: »

OK, I watched your video. You should always place the platter on the spindle using two hands through the holes in the platter. Gently place it on as level as possible. Let gravity seat the platter. Then, you can't really judge how it spins until it is under power. I've had tables that make slight ringing sounds like that when you are brushing it off, but not when it is under power.

As far as powering/spinng, it looks like the table doesn't start spinning when you turn on the power. It won't start spinning until you press the cue ^ button. If you are doing that and not getting any spin, there is something not right.

tcrossma wrote: »

The motor starts when I press the ON (cue ^) button (they are the same button), like I did in the video. And sometimes it will start spinning the platter. But the platter is still scraping against the plinth and still makes the same scraping noise as in the video when I manually turn it. The front of the platter is physically hitting the plinth, which is preventing the motor from turning the platter smoothly.

When I lightly push down on the platter at the back of the table, it levels the platter out and it spins smoothly. It seems to me as if the platter is sitting too close to the plinth and causing it to scape slightly.

If there was an adjustment either to make the spindle sit a little higher or to level it out *very* slightly so that the front didn't scrape, I think that might solve the problem.

Well based on the pictures and your clip, those rings are not used to heighten the platter. The underside of your platter would have cutouts where the rings would make contact with it if this were the case.

I see now that the spindle is tapered and the taper is what uses gravity and the weight of the platter to get it spinning. When you hit the cue button does the taper seem to spin evenly and consistently without the platter on it?

It would seem that if it doesn't as Bill said something isn't right. I think the spindle/taper assembly may indeed have been damaged with the platter being shipped on the taper.

If you have the nerves to take the bottom of the plinth (being very careful not to dislodge the motor cover if it is attached) place the TT on its side and try hitting the cue button, WITHOUT the platter on it, while looking at the gear assembly attached to the spindle/taper. Check to see if they are aligned and spinning effortlessly. If the taper/spindle gear assembly is out of wack, you should notice it right away as it won't be perpendicular to the deck.

In the meantime let's hope that you can make contact with the seller to see if you are missing something in the setup or if he knows of any adjustments that can be made to set the spindle height higher and make sure you let him know that it make have been damaged because the platter was on the taper when shipped.

Also if you can post picture of the opened underside of the TT.

tcrossma

SCompRacer wrote: »

I can see some marks inside the platter spindle taper. Can you see any scratches with raised metal? A Qtip can be inserted and ran around the taper to check. Something like that can cause the platter to not seat fully, or sit crooked on the spindle.

Everything seems smooth -- the QTip didn't catch on anything.

When I look at the platter and how it sits on the plinth, I can actually see that the platter hits the plinth at the front of the table, whereas there is a small gap (maybe 1/16" around the rest). When I press down on the platter towards the back of the table, it raises up the front and everything spins nice and smooth.

When I remove the platter and look at the spindle, everything looks fine with it. It doesn't have any play in it, and I can't detect any movement if I try and lean it from front to back. It also spins very smoothly when I turn it by hand.

So the more and more I look at this, the more it seems as if the must be a *very* small amount of give in the spindle mounting so that when the weight of the platter is sitting on it, it is causing it to tilt forward slightly. Perhaps opening it up and making sure that the spindle is secured properly to the underside of the plinth is in order? Not going to go that route until I talk to the seller though, and if anyone has any other suggestions or things to look for, I'm all ears.

tcrossma

hearingimpared wrote: »

Well based on the pictures and your clip, those rings are not used to heighten the platter. The underside of your platter would have cutouts where the rings would make contact with it if this were the case.

I see now that the spindle is tapered and the taper is what uses gravity and the weight of the platter to get it spinning. When you hit the cue button does the taper seem to spin evenly and consistently without the platter on it?

It would seem that if it doesn't as Bill said something isn't right. I think the spindle/taper assembly may indeed have been damaged with the platter being shipped on the taper.

If you have the nerves to take the bottom of the plinth (being very careful not to dislodge the motor cover if it is attached) place the TT on its side and try hitting the cue button while looking at the gear assembly attached to the spindle/taper. Check to see if they are aligned and spinning effortlessly.

In the meantime let's hope that you can make contact with the seller to see if you are missing something in the setup or if he knows of any adjustments that can be made to set the spindle height higher.

Also if you can post picture of the opened underside of the TT.

Thanks Joe.

When I remove the platter and turn it on, the spindle spins smoothly and without wobbling or anything, but it doesn't quite spin the way I would have thought it would. It spins for a short time, stops, then spins again, stops, etc.

But until I can physically stop the front of the platter from hitting the tabletop I don't see this as a motor issue. Or at least, if this is also a motor issue it has to take backseat to getting platter to sit correctly and evenly.

And a couple times, especially when I remove the rubber mat on the platter to make it lighter, the platter has spun on its own when I turned it on (still scraping though) and it seemed to spin pretty evenly and consistently.

Polkersince85

If, big if, the spindle location didn't shift during shipping; you could try loosening the motor mount screws and retighten the opposite to the tilt screws first then the tilt side.

tcrossma

Polkersince85 wrote: »

If, big if, the spindle location didn't shift during shipping; you could try loosening the motor mount screws and retighten the opposite to the tilt screws first then the tilt side.

Yeah, just to try and get it to sit more levelly you mean? I would just need to open up the table from underneath to get to it all, correct? It seems pretty straightforward to do, any issues opening it up that anyone sees?

I'll call the seller shortly and talk it over with him, and then maybe open it up and take a look.

nooshinjohn

tcrossma wrote: »

Thanks Joe.

When I remove the platter and turn it on, the spindle spins smoothly and without wobbling or anything, but it doesn't quite spin the way I would have thought it would. It spins for a short time, stops, then spins again, stops, etc..

Sounds like the motor may have been damaged in shipping. A turntable should never be shipped with the platter attached.

The motor should spin freely and with ease...

Polkersince85

Here's my spindle with the cover off, totally different setup so we can't use it for reference. Mine is rock solid with no movement in the motor housing. If you do turn the table on the side, don't forget to tie the tonearm down with a twist tie.

tcrossma

nooshinjohn wrote: »

Sounds like the motor may have been damaged in shipping. A turntable should never be shipped with the platter attached.

The motor should spin freely and with ease...

Well, it does spin freely and with easy, it just doesn't spin continuously when the platter isn't on. I thought maybe it's because there's no platter attached and when properly attached the end result would be a nice, even rotation.

But still, I can't see this as a motor problem yet until I can at least get the platter to sit correctly and without rubbing against the plinth.

tcrossma

Ok, an update, and what I think is some good news.

I still haven't been able to talk to the seller, but I decided to open it up (pic attached). Since I felt that the spindle motor was tilted and thus causing the platter to scrape the plinth, I loosed up all 4 screws on the spindle motor and tried to re-tighten the back first, then the fronts, in hopes that I could make it more level. I put it back together and fired it up, and there was an improvement. The platter was still hitting the plinth, but at least now the platter would move on its own accord when powered on.

I attempted the same exact procedure again, and yet another improvement. This time the platter was only hitting the plinth once a rotation, possibly on a high-spot somewhere on the table or something. I was able to adjust the speed using the 33 adjustment so that it was spot-on, with only a slight variation when platter hit the plinth each rotation.

The third time I considered putting a little shim under the mount to level it out. But then I noticed that the spindle motor wasn't quite sitting perfectly centered in its opening, so I figured I'd loosen up all the screws again and try to move the spindle slightly so that it was centered. I was able to move it, and was able to get it pretty darn close to centered, at least to the naked eye.

I put it all back together, fired it up, and perfectly smooth rotation, and the speed is dead accurate and consistent!

So, now I'll work on getting the arm / cartridge setup again and see if I can play some vinyl.

Thanks to everyone for helping, and while I would rather have not had a problem with this, I do feel that I now have a much better understanding of this table (and turntables in general for the matter) and how everything relates to each other than I otherwise would have. Hopefully I'll be able to get the rest of it working without any further troubles.

Question though: The table seems to indicate that it has cuing, and from the insides it seems like it should have some automated cuing abilities. Is it that my particular arm just doesn't support that, or it is broken? I assume without cuing I'll have to manually pick up the arm using the handle on the cartridge shell and place it manually on the record. And when the record is finished playing, it'll just sit spinning on the inside of the record until I manually lift it back off. Is this correct, and normal?

Thanks.

tcrossma

Nevermind on the cuing, got that figured out. I just didn't understand the way it works, and now I see how it slowly raises / lowers the arm, then I just need to move it into position manually. All is good, and I'm now playing some vinyl. I'll hold off on impressions until I get some time to listen to it, and possibly even until I get a real preamp and maybe a better cartridge. But I'm happy as a clam that it's even playing!

Another question though: How am I supposed to ground this thing? The little battery preamp doesn't have any ground (obviously), so what's the best thing to do? The table has an 8" grounding cable coming out of it with a forked end.

billbillw

Sounds like the motor mount shifted during shipment due to the weight of the platter being attached. Luckily you were able to sort it out, but that is exactly why you NEVER ship a TT with the platter attached, no matter how well you have it taped, etc. That is the same reason you always remove the counterweight.

tcrossma

billbillw wrote: »

Sounds like the motor mount shifted during shipment due to the weight of the platter being attached. Luckily you were able to sort it out, but that is exactly why you NEVER ship a TT with the platter attached, no matter how well you have it taped, etc. That is the same reason you always remove the counterweight.

Yep, I'd say that's exactly what happened, and I consider myself lucky that it was fixable.

hearingimpared

As far as grounding goes, see if your preamp has a grounding post on it. If so use that. If not, try it with the ground wire just setting in a 'S' shape on the table. There maybe some internal grounding built into the battery pre. If you don't get any hum or radio stations coming through your speakers your gold.

One thing I would definitely suggest you do. Get a couple of round bubble levels. Place on opposite sides of your platter and see if it is indeed level. If not adjust the feet at the bottom of the TT until it is level. Next you will have to check to make sure that any leveling changes you made to level the platter didn't knock the tonearm level out-of-wack. The way to check this is to put a bubble level up against the base of tonearm one opposite each side. If it's level, great. If it isn't then check the manual to see if there is a leveling system for the tonearm. If there isn't then you may have to place small thin shims under the base of the tonearm to get it level.

It is very important that the platter & tonearm are level so the stylus rides the grooves at the proper angle.

One of the reasons VPI stopped making two piece plinths was because each were on different plinths and each had to be leveled, However, with the one piece that the platter was on was separate from the tonearm board which in my mind is the way you want it because for just the reason I stated above. Atleast with a two piece plinth, you can level the platter board and separately level the tonearm board. . . WHATEVER. . . I'm rambling now.

I just glad you're getting to listen to some vinyl finally. As stated in the PM you can tweek it out anytime.