New to forum & Monitor 50 bi-wire / bi-amp ?

static_k

Hello everyone! I'm new to the forums as well as to Polk speakers. Within the past month I've been buying Polk speakers off of newegg(gotta love their deals). I purchased the Monitor 50's / CS1 / Monitor 30's combo. I hooked them all up and they sound great but I think could sound better due to the fact that my current receiver can't seem to drive them hard enough. It's an older Onkyo TX-SV515PRO, which I was disappointed to find out that when I switch it to surround mode it drops the power output of the main speakers from 80W to 55W and the rears only get 20W. So I got the bug....

I didn't have much money to play with so I just bought a used Denon AVR-2802 receiver on ebay yesterday ($76). Not to mention all of the other features this receiver has over my current it also has more power output. The manual says 90W for 6 channels (Front,Center,Surround,Suround back).

Now on to my question...finally. The Denon shows output terminals for a Front A and B speakers. I don't know if this is called bi-amping or bi-wiring but would I be able to run speaker wire from both sets of terminals (A & to my monitor 50's? And if I did that what would the power output be coming from the receiver? Does Front A and Front B share the same 90W power source or do they each have 90W coming out?

Thanks for any clarification you guys can give.

-ken

wutadumsn23

Not 100% positive, but IMHO Bi-Amping/Bi-Wiring is a waste of time with an AVR. Adding a second set of speaker wire to the unused terminals on the back of your AVR (usually the Surround Back L/R) isn't going to add much power, nevermind double it. Your AVR only has one power source and it powers all the speakers, so it only has so much power to give. If you want to get some real power to those speakers get yourself an external amp. From what I can tell that 2802 has pre outs for adding an amp so you are good to go there. Brands to look into would include, Adcom, Rotel, Sunfire, Emotiva to name a few. That is your best option for getting more power to those speakers, IMHO. Good luck and welcome to Club Polk.

-Jeff

hearingimpared

wutadumsn23 wrote: »

Not 100% positive, but IMHO Bi-Amping/Bi-Wiring is a waste of time with an AVR. Adding a second set of speaker wire to the unused terminals on the back of your AVR (usually the Surround Back L/R) isn't going to add much power, nevermind double it. Your AVR only has one power source and it powers all the speakers, so it only has so much power to give. If you want to get some real power to those speakers get yourself an external amp. From what I can tell that 2802 has pre outs for adding an amp so you are good to go there. Brands to look into would include, Adcom, Rotel, Sunfire, Emotiva to name a few. That is your best option for getting more power to those speakers, IMHO. Good luck and welcome to Club Polk.

-Jeff

Agreed! Biamping using the rear channels of the AVR will add nothing to your current setup as your AVR has one power source as stated above.

If you want more power and biamping ability that will improve your signal quality, go with outboard power amps using one amp to power the lows and the other to power the highs.

Biwiring is useless unless you buy MIT biwire cables that separate the high frequencies from the low frequencies using network boxes but these cables are not cheap new. You can find them on the used market for up to 1/4 the cost of new MITs.

comfortablycurt

In this case, that's not even what those outputs are for. The A/B outputs are for hooking up two different pairs of speakers, and being able to switch between the pairs.

For instance, you could have a larger pair of floorstanders for 2 channel use on the A outputs, with a smaller pair of bookshelves for surround use on the B outputs.

The A/B outputs share the same power source. If you were to connect two pairs of speakers to them, you wouldn't really want to run both pairs at the same time. Running two pairs would halve the impedance that the amp is seeing, which causes the amp to work much harder. I'm not sure if you'd be able to use the A/B outputs to bi-amp(bi-wire would be a more appropriate term), but I wouldn't recommend it, for the reasons I mentioned above.


Otherwise, I agree with Jeff and Joe above. Many newer AVR's have a built in "bi-amp" feature, which lets you use the surround back channels to bi-wire the front channels. I've tried it with my Onkyo 606 and the RTi8's I used to have, and found absolutely no improvements. Most other people haven't found any improvements either. The power for all the channels on most AVR's is drawn from one common power block...and it can't be doubled by simply hooking up two pairs of outputs. Also, the power ratings of most AVR's are way off. In a real world situation, your Denon probably isn't putting out anything close to 90 wpc. That 90 wpc rating is most likely with only one channel driven...so you're actual power output is probably closer to 45-50 watts per channel with all 5 channels driven. With 2 channels driven, you'd probably be closer to 70 watts per channel or so. I did a quick search, and couldn't find any bench tests for that AVR. Those numbers are just rough estimates, but that's usually fairly close for most lower end AVR's.

How do you use your rig most? Mainly movies or music? If music, do you listen in 2 channel or surround sound?




By the way...welcome to Club Polk!!

hearingimpared

comfortablycurt wrote: »

In this case, that's not even what those outputs are for. The A/B outputs are for hooking up two different pairs of speakers, and being able to switch between the pairs.

For instance, you could have a larger pair of floorstanders for 2 channel use on the A outputs, with a smaller pair of bookshelves for surround use on the B outputs.

The A/B outputs share the same power source. If you were to connect two pairs of speakers to them, you wouldn't really want to run both pairs at the same time. Running two pairs would halve the impedance that the amp is seeing, which causes the amp to work much harder. I'm not sure if you'd be able to use the A/B outputs to bi-amp(bi-wire would be a more appropriate term), but I wouldn't recommend it, for the reasons I mentioned above.


Otherwise, I agree with Jeff and Joe above. Many newer AVR's have a built in "bi-amp" feature, which lets you use the surround back channels to bi-wire the front channels. I've tried it with my Onkyo 606 and the RTi8's I used to have, and found absolutely no improvements. Most other people haven't found any improvements either. The power for all the channels on most AVR's is drawn from one common power block...and it can't be doubled by simply hooking up two pairs of outputs. Also, the power ratings of most AVR's are way off. In a real world situation, your Denon probably isn't putting out anything close to 90 wpc. That 90 wpc rating is most likely with only one channel driven...so you're probably only really getting closer to 60 or so watts per channel.




By the way...welcome to Club Polk!!

This is true only if the impedance of the two sets of speakers are the same. If one set is 8 ohms and the other set is 4 ohms and you run A & B together, thus placing them in parellel you would be reducing the impedance to lower than 4 ohms which would be a very, very difficult load to drive with a great amplifier let alone an AVR.

Here is a relatively simple resistance in parellel guide;

http://www.play-hookey.com/dc_theory/parallel_resistors.html

BTW Welcome to Club Polk!!!

wutadumsn23

comfortablycurt wrote: »

In this case, that's not even what those outputs are for. The A/B outputs are for hooking up two different pairs of speakers, and being able to switch between the pairs.

Good point Curt, forgot to mention that.

-Jeff

static_k

Thanks everyone for their responses.

It sounds like bi-wiring isn't really worth trying to setup and if I want more power to get to those speakers it's best to use the pre-outs into an amplifier.

comfortablycurt's post:

Also, the power ratings of most AVR's are way off. In a real world situation, your Denon probably isn't putting out anything close to 90 wpc. That 90 wpc rating is most likely with only one channel driven...so you're actual power output is probably closer to 45-50 watts per channel with all 5 channels driven.

I had no idea those numbers they give weren't accurate. I'm curious now. Think I'll be doing some google searching on bench tests for the Denon.

wutadumsn23

Yeah, most companies power ratings are for only one or two channels driven, and they will drop off considerably for every speaker you add after that.

-Jeff

hearingimpared

wutadumsn23 wrote: »

Yeah, most companies power ratings are for only one or two channels driven, and they will drop off considerably for every speaker you add after that.

-Jeff

NAD typically are the exception to that rule.

static_k

Hi Guys,

I finally got that Denon AVR-2802 in today and I'm a bit confused on how to hook-up my Velodyne CT-100 subwoofer. The receiver has a single pre-amp subwoofer out jack but my sub has a left and right line-in. What should I do?

Thanks!

cnoat

Run your left and right channel speaker leads to the sub.Then out to your speakers.Use the onboard crossovers to tweak the sound.

comfortablycurt

cnoat wrote: »

Run your left and right channel speaker leads to the sub.Then out to your speakers.Use the onboard crossovers to tweak the sound.

I wouldn't connect it this way...you're much better off using the line inputs in this situation IMO.

My $.02

static_k wrote: »

Hi Guys,

I finally got that Denon AVR-2802 in today and I'm a bit confused on how to hook-up my Velodyne CT-100 subwoofer. The receiver has a single pre-amp subwoofer out jack but my sub has a left and right line-in. What should I do?

Thanks!

Run the receivers subwoofer preamp output to the sub, and simply connect it to one or the other of the inputs. The receivers subwoofer output carries a mono signal, and only needs to be connected to one inputs. You could also use a 1 female to 2 male y-adapter, to connect to both inputs if you wanted, but it should make no difference.

With this connection method, the receiver will be handling the crossover point for the sub. I checked the CT-100's manual, and it looks like it has a switch to bypass the internal crossover. Since the receiver will be taking care of the crossover point, set the crossover switch to "out", to bypass it.


The best crossover points to start with(in the receiver), would be a 120hz crossover point for the sub, and an 80hz crossover point on the rest of the speakers.

BizmanJoe

Hi. I'm also new to the forum. This will be my second post.

I have to humbly disagree that one cannot hear a difference when speakers are bi-amped with the same amplifier (I guess that can depend on the amplifier in question). I have three HK Signature 2.1 amplifiers of which 4 channels of one amplifier are dedicated (fifth channel is not used) to driving the high frequency driver and the mid-bass driver on my Klipsch KSP 400s. I can definitely hear a difference when each speaker is supplied with 200 watts per channel, rather than 100 watts per channel. The speakers also come with a built-in sub with 400W amps, so very low frequencies do not draw any current or wattage from the HK Signature amplifier (the amps are rated at 100amperes each & 100 watts per channel, ALL channels driven, 20-20,000Hz - real measurements, not the bogus 1kHz, single/two-channel measurement used by many other companies ). What I have noticed is how much the mid-range opens up and the high frequency sibilence is absent when I crank the volume up. I have been so satisfied by the improvement, that now I am considering tri-amping the speakers, as the speakers have the capability to do so.

Heck, I might even buy a tube amp and use it specifically to drive the high-frequency drivers in the KSP 400s and see how much more of an improvement I can experience...

BizmanJoe

One thing I forgot to mention is that prior to bi-amping the KSPs, I drove each KSP 400 with a single amplifier channel using Monster Z series cables, drove a center channel KSP C6 speaker with Z series cable, and drove two KSB 3.1 surrounds with the same HK Signature amplifier using AR speaker cable. It sounded awesome, but when I got hold of a Fosgate DSL 3A unit, I drove the KSP C6 center channel speaker and the KSB 3.1 surrounds with a second HK Signature 2.1 amp I had, as well as adding two side channels using KSB 2.1s since the Fosgate unit added that capability. I also bought a Monster Z3 series cable (thicker than my thumb) and used it for the mid-bass driver on the KSP 400s, while using the original Z series cable for the high range driver. The difference in reproduction was distinctly noticeable... a BIG improvement.

comfortablycurt

BizmanJoe wrote: »

Hi. I'm also new to the forum. This will be my second post.

I have to humbly disagree that one cannot hear a difference when speakers are bi-amped with the same amplifier (I guess that can depend on the amplifier in question). I have three HK Signature 2.1 amplifiers of which 4 channels of one amplifier are dedicated (fifth channel is not used) to driving the high frequency driver and the mid-bass driver on my Klipsch KSP 400s. I can definitely hear a difference when each speaker is supplied with 200 watts per channel, rather than 100 watts per channel. The speakers also come with a built-in sub with 400W amps, so very low frequencies do not draw any current or wattage from the HK Signature amplifier (the amps are rated at 100amperes each & 100 watts per channel, ALL channels driven, 20-20,000Hz - real measurements, not the bogus 1kHz, single/two-channel measurement used by many other companies ). What I have noticed is how much the mid-range opens up and the high frequency sibilence is absent when I crank the volume up. I have been so satisfied by the improvement, that now I am considering tri-amping the speakers, as the speakers have the capability to do so.

Heck, I might even buy a tube amp and use it specifically to drive the high-frequency drivers in the KSP 400s and see how much more of an improvement I can experience...

BizmanJoe wrote: »

One thing I forgot to mention is that prior to bi-amping the KSPs, I drove each KSP 400 with a single amplifier channel using Monster Z series cables, drove a center channel KSP C6 speaker with Z series cable, and drove two KSB 3.1 surrounds with the same HK Signature amplifier using AR speaker cable. It sounded awesome, but when I got hold of a Fosgate DSL 3A unit, I drove the KSP C6 center channel speaker and the KSB 3.1 surrounds with a second HK Signature 2.1 amp I had, as well as adding two side channels using KSB 2.1s since the Fosgate unit added that capability. I also bought a Monster Z3 series cable (thicker than my thumb) and used it for the mid-bass driver on the KSP 400s, while using the original Z series cable for the high range driver. The difference in reproduction was distinctly noticeable... a BIG improvement.

That is an entirely different situation than I was referring to. You're bi-amping with external power amps...which can make for a very big difference.

We're referring to bi-amping by using the surround back channels of a surround sound receiver...which isn't even bi-amping.

Much different situation.

static_k

comfortablycurt wrote: »

I wouldn't connect it this way...you're much better off using the line inputs in this situation IMO.

My $.02



Run the receivers subwoofer preamp output to the sub, and simply connect it to one or the other of the inputs. The receivers subwoofer output carries a mono signal, and only needs to be connected to one inputs. You could also use a 1 female to 2 male y-adapter, to connect to both inputs if you wanted, but it should make no difference.

With this connection method, the receiver will be handling the crossover point for the sub. I checked the CT-100's manual, and it looks like it has a switch to bypass the internal crossover. Since the receiver will be taking care of the crossover point, set the crossover switch to "out", to bypass it.


The best crossover points to start with(in the receiver), would be a 120hz crossover point for the sub, and an 80hz crossover point on the rest of the speakers.

Thanks a lot comfortablycurt! I'll have to grab a longer cable and I'm going to hook it up as you suggested. Thanks again for going through the effort of looking up the manual. I'll let you know how it goes.

wutadumsn23

comfortablycurt wrote: »

That is an entirely different situation than I was referring to. You're bi-amping with external power amps...which can make for a very big difference.

We're referring to bi-amping by using the surround back channels of a surround sound receiver...which isn't even bi-amping.

Much different situation.

Very true Curt, as you know already that is more commonly refered to as Bi-Wiring and has little to no effect on the sound.

-Jeff

static_k

I hooked my sub up as Curt suggested and it works great

Not sure if anyone has ever dealt with the Denon AVR-2802 but they have a speaker setup in the receiver menu. With my Polk Monitor 50's are they considered "Large" or "Small"?

Also after hooking everything up I am impressed with the sound difference between the Dolby Digital compared to the old Pro Logic of my old receiver. One thing I did notice though is it seems that my old Onkyo was able to "crank" louder than this Denon. I turned the Denon to the max volume whereas with the Onkyo I never did that because it just got too loud.

Supposedly the specs on the Denon say:
Front 90W + 90W
Center 90W
Surround 90W + 90W
Surround Back 90W

Then the Specs on the Onkyo are:
Front 55W + 55W
Center 55W
Surround 20W + 20W

Does it make any sense or am I crazy that I think the Onkyo was louder when listening in Surround? I haven't tried just straight Stereo yet.

wutadumsn23

Every AVR will sound different, some say that the Denon's have a more warm, laid back sound and the Onkyo's can be a bit on the bright side. That may be why you hear a difference, but you have to keep in mind that most AVR's specs are going to be pretty overexaggerated since most of them are rated at only one or two channels being powered. As for the 50's. try them at small, set the crossovers to 80hz and the subs crossover at 120hz. See how you like it. If you are not impressed, try them at large with the same crossover settings and see which one you like best. It will take some tinkering and fine tuning before you get it where you want it.

-Jeff

static_k

Hey Guys,

Ok I take back the whole I think the Onkyo "cranked" louder than the Denon that I got. It seemed that I was listening to the audio coming from my digital cable box was the problem. Even though i was using a optical audio cable out of the cable box into the Denon, movies over say HBO were using the Pro Logic processor in the Denon.

Well I got more optical audio cables and I was able to hook up my dvd player to the receiver. The Denon did a signal detect and was able to see that it was Dolby Digital coming from the dvd. I have to say holy cow what a difference. I'm not able to turn the Denon to max volume like I was when using the cable box, it's just too loud Basically -15 sound level when the dvd is the source sounds like the same volume of +15 sound level coming from the cable box.

Now I just have to find out what I can do about that cable box. Not sure if movies can come across in Dolby Digital over the cable system.

cnh

I was going to say that I have a Denon 2807 and it is plenty loud with TSI-300s (the successors to your M50s). Damn thing weighs 31 lbs...not bad for a 110 Watt/channel AVR. Definitely plays louder than my Onkyo 605 which is a 90 watt receiver--not a LOT louder...but enough.

Glad you found you're problem.

cnh

Amherst

Most likely the volume is down on the cable box. The cable box volume control affects all outputs from it including any digital outs. Check it!

comfortablycurt

static_k wrote: »

I hooked my sub up as Curt suggested and it works great

Not sure if anyone has ever dealt with the Denon AVR-2802 but they have a speaker setup in the receiver menu. With my Polk Monitor 50's are they considered "Large" or "Small"?

Also after hooking everything up I am impressed with the sound difference between the Dolby Digital compared to the old Pro Logic of my old receiver. One thing I did notice though is it seems that my old Onkyo was able to "crank" louder than this Denon. I turned the Denon to the max volume whereas with the Onkyo I never did that because it just got too loud.

Supposedly the specs on the Denon say:
Front 90W + 90W
Center 90W
Surround 90W + 90W
Surround Back 90W

Then the Specs on the Onkyo are:
Front 55W + 55W
Center 55W
Surround 20W + 20W

Does it make any sense or am I crazy that I think the Onkyo was louder when listening in Surround? I haven't tried just straight Stereo yet.

Good to hear things are working well.:)

As Jeff mentioned above, you've gotta take the power ratings of most AVR's with a grain of salt. They're generally only tested with one or two channels driven, but they typically word the specs so that it seems like it's an all channels driven spec.

Amherst wrote: »

Most likely the volume is down on the cable box. The cable box volume control affects all outputs from it including any digital outs. Check it!

That would be my first guess.

That said, many times cable/TV audio can vary in volume a lot. Have you tried this on different channels?

As Amherst suggested, check the volume control of your cable box. If it's not already, you're probably going to want to turn it all the way up.

wutadumsn23

static_k wrote: »

Now I just have to find out what I can do about that cable box. Not sure if movies can come across in Dolby Digital over the cable system.

Only if it is being broadcast in that format, 9 times out of 10 the HD channels are always DD 5.1 and regular cable boxes some movie channels are broadcast in 5.1, but not always. That has been my experience with my Comcast HD box anyway, YMMV.

-Jeff

static_k

I went digging into some settings on the cable box. It's a Samsung H3050 btw. I found there was a Devices menu option that brought me into the Samsung settings and out of the "cable system" settings. There was an option for digital ac3 in the audio options. Once I set that the the receiver detected the Dolby Digital signal and the HD channels sound great!

Side note, I have my Xbox hooked through the optical cable into the receiver as well and that sounds awesome too.

Thanks again everyone for helping me get my system all setup.:)

BizmanJoe

comfortablycurt wrote: »

That is an entirely different situation than I was referring to. You're bi-amping with external power amps...which can make for a very big difference.

We're referring to bi-amping by using the surround back channels of a surround sound receiver...which isn't even bi-amping.

Much different situation.

You know, you're absolutely right. In the case you're referring to, my humble suggestion would be to use the "pre outs" to power a more powerful external amplifier, and if the receiver allows the use of "pre outs" without shutting off its internal power supply, then conceivably you can use the "pre outs" to power a second external power amplifier for bi-amping... or, if the receiver has second zone controls, to program the second zone as a second set of "pre outs" for bi-amplification. You can typically configure second zone outputs to power an external amplifier for bi-amping.

BizmanJoe

wutadumsn23 wrote: »

Every AVR will sound different, some say that the Denon's have a more warm, laid back sound and the Onkyo's can be a bit on the bright side. That may be why you hear a difference, but you have to keep in mind that most AVR's specs are going to be pretty overexaggerated since most of them are rated at only one or two channels being powered. As for the 50's. try them at small, set the crossovers to 80hz and the subs crossover at 120hz. See how you like it. If you are not impressed, try them at large with the same crossover settings and see which one you like best. It will take some tinkering and fine tuning before you get it where you want it.

-Jeff

IMHO, the Denons sound more warm and inviting to the ears than the Onkyos. As for the Onkyo sound being "louder," it could very well be your perception of the higher frequency efficiency of the Onkyo. Most receivers tend to sound very THIN and compressed the louder you try to crank it. That is why so many of us end up shelling out for separate power amplifiers. The extra cash shelled out in this case, is well worth the sonic differences IMHO. Also, I always check how the specifications are achieved: is the output specification rated at 1kHz with one or two channels, or is the output rating based on the 20Hz - 20kHz, ALL CHANNELS DRIVEN methodology? A 200 watt rating at 1kHz with two channels driven is in reality more like a 100 watt rating at 20Hz - 20kHz, all channels driven, when it comes to multi-channel amps. Also, the amperage capability can make or break an amplifier in how hot or cool it runs under load from the speakers.

cnh

The sound too is somewhat subjective. I own a 2800 series Denon and an 805 gorilla Onkyo. The Denon is 'ever' so slightly warmer than the 805. The higher end Onkyos are not as bright as the lower end. The massive tranformers in those units help to even out the sound. And also supply sufficient power reserves so that there is not much of a drop at all if any from 2 channel to 5 channel in the 805....but then again it weighs almost 51 pounds. And most of that weight is power supply/amp related.

cnh

BizmanJoe

static_k wrote: »

Hello everyone! I'm new to the forums as well as to Polk speakers. Within the past month I've been buying Polk speakers off of newegg(gotta love their deals). I purchased the Monitor 50's / CS1 / Monitor 30's combo. I hooked them all up and they sound great but I think could sound better due to the fact that my current receiver can't seem to drive them hard enough. It's an older Onkyo TX-SV515PRO, which I was disappointed to find out that when I switch it to surround mode it drops the power output of the main speakers from 80W to 55W and the rears only get 20W. So I got the bug....

I didn't have much money to play with so I just bought a used Denon AVR-2802 receiver on ebay yesterday ($76). Not to mention all of the other features this receiver has over my current it also has more power output. The manual says 90W for 6 channels (Front,Center,Surround,Suround back).

Now on to my question...finally. The Denon shows output terminals for a Front A and B speakers. I don't know if this is called bi-amping or bi-wiring but would I be able to run speaker wire from both sets of terminals (A & to my monitor 50's? And if I did that what would the power output be coming from the receiver? Does Front A and Front B share the same 90W power source or do they each have 90W coming out?

Thanks for any clarification you guys can give.

-ken

This is easy: Try running a set of speakers cables from speaker A output of your receiver to one set of the speaker terminals ("high" on your speaker binding posts), and then a second set of speaker cables from speaker B output of your receiver to the other set of the speaker terminals ("low" on your speaker binding posts). Then, set your receiver mains to A + B for bi-amplification. The only problem is, you are still limited by how much "juice" the power amplifier section of your receiver can produce. Oh, and one more thing: make sure the resistance of your speakers do not drop below 4 ohms with this methodology -in other words, use 8 ohm speakers. This isn't "true" bi-amplification, as purists say that you must disable the internal speaker crossovers and use an ACTIVE external crossover equalization for true bi-amping. But I can definitely hear a difference with my Klipsch KSP 400s WITHOUT the external active crossover equalization (which, by the way, is really prohibitively expensive and complicated).

BizmanJoe

cnh wrote: »

The sound too is somewhat subjective. I own a 2800 series Denon and an 805 gorilla Onkyo. The Denon is 'ever' so slightly warmer than the 805. The higher end Onkyos are not as bright as the lower end. The massive tranformers in those units help to even out the sound. And also supply sufficient power reserves so that there is not much of a drop at all if any from 2 channel to 5 channel in the 805....but then again it weighs almost 51 pounds. And most of that weight is power supply/amp related.

cnh

I would have to agree that the upper end of the Onkyo "Integra" series sounds quite different from the regular dime a dozen Onkyos. Larger transformers, capacitors and better circuit topology with higher-grade components make all the difference.

hearingimpared

Go with a higher end NAD AVR and won't have power problems, the need for outboard amps, the need for biamping, or thin/compressed sounds at high volumes levels.