Best HT Reciever under $750?

robodell · May 2003

Hi! This is my first post - I just joined when I registered my new LSi-15s. These are the first components of a HT system that I want to upgrade to.

I am thinking of LSi7s for surrounds, LSiC center, not sure on subwoofer yet.

I have a 13 year old Onkyo 60wpc stereo reciever that I want to replace next. They can drive the 4 ohm LSi15s, but as you can imaging things get a little muddled when I turn up the volume. I'm looking for a HT receiver for under $750. I'm new to HT... any recommendations?

The local dealer that I bought the LSi-15s from recommends the Yamaha RX-V2300 (<http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/RECEIVER/REC_RX-V.htm>).
I've been thinking of splurging for the RX-V3300, which would increase power to 130Wx6 and get me Pre-Amp outs (just in case).

Thanks!

Other components: I have a 27"JVC TV that is adequate for now. I also have an old Onkyo CD Player (that has no problem with CD-Rs), and a 2 year old Sony DVD player that is pretty basic. I've actually "retired" the DVD player to the bedroom and use an XBox with the S-Video kit instead - it has more features and plays "problem" discs that the Sony will not, but makes alot of noise.

goingganzo · May 2003

your problem is most ht recevers dont drive 4 ohm loads. unless you get the high end. then it is allmost the same as seperates.

brettw22 · May 2003

Welcome to the forums Robodell....

I took the following from the site that you linked to:

You can only use 1 pair of 4 ohm speakers, or 1 pair of 6 ohm speakers, or 2 pair of 8 ohm speakers. Any other combination or types of speakers that you are using other than what was just mentioned could lead to premature failure of your amplifier or power transformer.

There are a few different routes that you could go as far as a source go, but I don't believe that for $750 you'd be getting something that will last you the life of your LSi's. Receivers *typically* aren't the way to go with the LSi line because of the need to easily run a 4 ohm load. The general consensus with regard to Yamaha's overall sound is that they're a little too bright. I would seriously consider upping your budget if there's any way possible for you to do that.

You mention that you're considering the LSi7's for surrounds. Are you planning on a single pair of side surrounds? If so, have you had direct radiating speakers as surrounds as compared to a pair of bi/dipole speakers? The sound issue between Direct vs. Bi/Dipole speakers is one that each must make on their own. I personally don't like the sound of Direct surrounds. Directs are typically better as rear surrounds, with a pair of bi/di's on the sides.

You said that your 15's were the first steps towards a HT set-up that you're upgrading to. It's a great first step, but you're gonna wanna make sure that you have the equipment to properly drive them or you've upgraded to something that won't sound near it's potential. Let us know how much of your listening habits are HT vs. Music also. Do you have a sub? The X-Box has GOT to go.......sorry.... Maybe your first few steps should be electronics upgrades over getting more speakers (which I realize was the purpose of your thread). Just gotta up the money factor IMO.

robodell · May 2003

Thanks for the guidance.

Good call on the 4 ohm issue. To stay with Yamaha, I would need the RX-V3300, which (according to the back panel) will drive 4 ohm:
<http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/backpanels/RXV3300/bRXV3300-5.htm>

The RX-V3300 puts me at ~$1000. I assume by separates, you mean a separate pre-amp, tuner, and amp; or a receiver with pre-amp outs and an amp. I don't even know where to look for amps. Any suggested brands/models?

Thanks!

danger boy · May 2003

that's a nice looking Yammi receiver you are looking at.

I'd also check into the Onkyo SR800 and the Marantz SR7300 and compare the three in your price range.

good luck.. you will love the huge improvement over your 13 yr old Onkyo. receivers have come miles since then.

Welcome to the Polk forums too.

Al

brettw22 · May 2003

Again, I'm going to say Yamaha is probably not the way to go , especially considering the speaker set-up that you're looking to get. The quote that I listed above wasn't specific to the model that you had indicated you were looking at. It was in their FAQ's under A/V Receivers. They did mention a processor that I couldn't seem to find on their site, but I did a search on Ebay to find it and I ran across a pretty good deal for not much more than what you're looking to spend.
DSP-A1 (Gold)
or the
RX-V1 (black)

If you're decidedly set on the Yamaha, I wouldn't go for anything other than a flagship to run a VERY power hungry line of speakers like the LSi's.

dorokusai · May 2003

I agree with Brett, they need nice, clean, discrete power. You seem to be Yamaha oriented, so I concur with the top end Yamaha.

There is a RX-Z1 that looks strangely similar, to the V1, are they the same Brett? Either way, they are manly looking receivers, perhaps Yamaha is trying to get their own Elite/ES type class more publicly viable.....

donahue · May 2003

I have the NAD T761 and it handles 4ohm. Also, check out the T762 which came out recently. I am sure that you can get the T761 for $750.00 or less. The T762 is most likely around $1000.00 Take one for a test drive, I am sure that you won't be disappointed. I know I have not been.

Frank Z · May 2003

I'm a stinkin' genuis...cuz I agree with Brett!

I'll go a little further and recommend that you take a look at the Outlaw 1050 receiver ( yes it is rated for 4ohm loads) or even better....check out the 950 with any of their 5 or 7 channel amps. I have an Outlaw 7100 mated to my Pioneer Elite receiver and it sounds incredible!

Here's a link for ya

WWW.OutlawAudio.com

BTW, Welcome to the forum!!

brettw22 · May 2003

I really dont' know anything about Yamaha per se, but in looking over their site for Robodell, I ran across a few models. Appearance alone, there is only one knob on the RX-Z1, as compared to the 2 on the V1. Performance-wise, from all that I've heard mostly here on the site, Yamaha is an acquired taste for even just the RT series.......I can't imagine how it'd keep up with the LSi's.

TonyPTX · May 2003

Originally posted by donahue
I have the NAD T761 and it handles 4ohm. Also, check out the T762 which came out recently. I am sure that you can get the T761 for $750.00 or less. The T762 is most likely around $1000.00 Take one for a test drive, I am sure that you won't be disappointed. I know I have not been.

You should be able to pick up a NAD T752 for under $750. It's a nice receiver w/ 75WPC. Should be able to handle your LSi's however if you really want to make them sing, you'll probably need more power. In that case you can consider the T762 which runs for about 1200 to 1300. Quite a bit more than what you're looking at spending, but you'll be happy...

fireshoes · May 2003

The RXZ1 comes with a touch screen remote, added PLII, and upped the power on front effect channels I believe. Can't think of anything else off the top of my head, but I'm sure there is more.

I personally really like the sound of Yamaha with the LSi's. I don't have Rotel or B&K where I work, but still.

I would much rather have an RXZ1 than a Denon 5803 based on my personal experience.

Currently I'm running the RXV2300 with my LSi's. Do I want more power? Of course. That will come in time. But being in an apartment, it will go plenty loud for my current needs.

Bottom line is everyone has opinions but yours is the one that matters. Go do some listening and see what you like!

dorokusai · May 2003

Thanx for clarification on the Yamaha model issues, Shoes 'n' Brett.

It really benefits the audio listener, to demo as much as possible, fact as stated.

fireshoes · May 2003

The Z1 actually increased power to all channels, not just the front effects. Also added sound field upgradability via the RS232c. The Z1 also has zone 2 video output which I don't think the V1 had, but can't remember.

bolson · May 2003

I will second Frank Z's post. I have an Outlaw 1050 driving LSi7's which I plan to move to rear surrounds when my LSi9's arrive. Since the 1050 as pre outs, I can add an external amp to really make 'em sing.

chaset · May 2003

I have an Outlaw Audio 1050 and will have my LSi setup (LSi9, LSiC, LSiFX) by the end of the week (shipping today). I decided that the cutting edge decoding formats (DTS-EX, PLII) were not as important to me as sound quality and power. I will report back in this weekend with my thoughts.

mantis · May 2003

robodell,
lets think about what you bought for speakers.Lets talk about what you should use to drive them...lets forget about Yamaha.I my opnion very nasty combo.

Lets rethink this alittle.You own speakers that retail for 1740.00 a pair.You wanna complete the system with te rest of the line.I don't see a Yamaha in your future.I'm thinking more like Rotel.
You can get into the rsx1055 for 1299.99 retail.I bet you could get a good deal somewhere.

Receivers your going to need flagship or very close to it to drive the Lsi's without loosing all your dynamics.

The Outlaw and NAD are also better choices then Yamaha.The rxv1 and the rxz1 in my opnion sound terrible mated with Lsi.I have listened and man.........BLEEP.

I also agree with Brett's comments about upgrading some sources.......

pjdami · May 2003

Robodel,

Let me give you my opinion based on equipment I have in my home right here right now.....

I have a three month old Yamaha RX-V1300 (110 w X 6) sitting in the corner not hooked up to anything. I have LSi 9 speakers set to small on a Rotel RSX 1055 receiver along with a PSW 350 Polk sub to fill in the lows. Recently I purchased some better wire, IXOS Super Gamma Biwire and Signal Cable Analog two interconnects. This combination on the LSi's ... the sound coming from this system ... I am totally in awe over. I try to find something bad to say about this system...but can't anymore. I try to find something good to say....but the LSis are just there nonchalantly playing the music without this braggadocio ego which is pleasing to the ears and just plain very enjoyable without ever being fatiguing.

The Yamaha, although not bad sounding at lower volumes, just doesn't sound as natural, open, and enveloping as the Rotel in my opinion. It gets a little "shouty" and "compressed" sounding at higher levels and loses dynamic range where the Rotel still sounds great. If I had nothing to compare it to I would say it sounds good; but after listening side by side with the Rotel....man its hard not to go with the Rotel.

Mantis is right. You are spending and have spent a lot in this investment. Do it right the first time. Check out the Rotel first. NAD would be second on my list (very similar sound to Rotel). I listened to both, and chose Rotel based on excellent build quality and reputation / better warranty. I will be extremely surprised if you are unhappy with Rotel. Rotel is the BOMB in the $1200 price range. A little more pricewise than what you have asked advice for....but will yield a big smile on your face. You should be able to get a 10% dealer discount off the MSRP of $1299 for Rotel.

Paul

robodell · May 2003

Thanks to all for the feedback!

I'm not set on Yamaha by any means... it is simply what the dealer that I bought my LSis from recommended.

Based on all of your feedback, I will:
- drop Yamaha from my list
- look at the Rotel RSX-1055
- look at the NAD T762 and T752
- consider the Outlaw 1050 with future amp upgrade

What does the "3x65W" rating for the Outlaw 1050 mean? I'm guessing that it isn't 195W per channel

. The brochure says 65W x6 channels, but it has "3 channels driven" dropped in here and there throughout the specs.

I love my new speakers! It is hard for me to believe how much I have been missing. I'm listening to music again! Also, I am amazed at the broad range of difference in quality of recordings. My old AR-38b's (my college speakers) couldn't articulate these subtleties. (Eric Clampton Unplugged vs. U2 Joshua Tree, for example)

RE: XBox... OK, maybe I shouldn't be playing DVDs on the XBox. The image quality isn't the best. However, the XBox will definitely remain connected. It will drive 5.1, and - well - have you played Halo? I agree that I am limping by on the Video side. I'll look at a new DVD player when I look for a better monitor. Most likely after a receiver and more speakers.

Thanks again!
robodell

front LR: LSi15
gaming: XBox
other: a bunch of crap that I need to replace

mantis · May 2003

robodell
Where abouts in NJ do you live?Alot of good audio stores in NJ.
Over Here in PA we also got plenty of good dealers for you to shop around at.

Where did you buy your Lsi's???Interstate Electronics??

Did you know that the Quick Mart in Jay and Silent Bob is right down the street from Interstate Electronics??I visited the Mart after my visit down there.I got a pen a soda and a bag.All put away.Cool ****.

pjdami · May 2003

Robodell,

One has to be cautious when looking at manufacturer specs on power output. Some manufacturers fudge the numbers by not doing a true 20 - 20K hz at 8 ohms X 5 channels (fudge by doing two channel at 6 ohms at 1 khz for example).

Check out this thread:

Receiver Output Test Results

The Outlaw did pretty decent at 62 watts X 5 channels. The NAD T752 did better than specs at 92 X 5 (vs. advertised 80 X 5). The Rotel 1065 did better than advertised too. Although the Rotel 1055 did not get tested, I would bet that it does similar to the 1065 in that it meets or exceeds what Rotel says it does.

There are some sweet "B-stock" deals going on at Outlawaudio right now. I've never personally listened to any of their products but they seem to have a strong following. You definitely can't go wrong with the Rotel though with NAD a close second.

P.

mantis · May 2003

Iv'e been talking about that for years......

chaset · May 2003

Well, I have everything (see my previous post) set up and I think that the Outlaw Audio 1050 is more than capable of driving my speakers.

I'm not going to tell you what to do. I'll tell you what I did and what I would do if I were in your position. Rotel and NAD make fine receivers. They just were not in my price range.

After purchasing my speakers for $1580 shipped, I didn't have the money to spend $1000+ on a receiver or separates. After doing some research, I narrowed my list down to the Outlaw Audio 1050 and the Harman Kardon AVR-525. BEFORE I purchased anything, I emailed Polk to get their approval. All I was concerned about was the sonic quality and the ability of the receiver to provide enough current to the speakers. The Polk representative said that both would be able to drive the speakers and that he would give the sound quality edge to the 1050.

The Outlaw 1050 drives my speakers to the border of comfortable listening (reference -10 to -15dB). I really have no desire to play my DVD's louder than that.

If I was looking at a $1000+ purchase, I think I would make the jump to $1500 and get Outlaw separates. Outlaw currently has their 950 preamp/preprocessor (B-stock) with a new 7100 7x100 watt amplifier for $1498 before shipping.

In summary:

I paid $420 for a used Outlaw Audio 1050. In my small home theater room (925ft^3 primary, 1700ft^3 total enclosed area), the 1050 is perfectly capable of delivering at least -10dB (I don't play it any higher because I can't handle it that loud). With the money I saved on this option, I'm going to to buy an SVS 16-46PCi subwoofer.

If I were in your shoes, I would either:
A) Buy the Outlaw 1050

Buy the 1050 and add an Outlaw amplifier ($1325 and up) or search Audiogon for a used amplifier.
C) Buy full Outlaw separates 950 and 7100/755/770 ($1500 and up).

Caveats:

I have a small room. If your room is considerably larger, the Outlaw 1050 might not cut it (without an amp).

The Outlaw 1050 does not have all of the brand new sound processing codecs (e.g. DTS-ES), but WILL play any DVD you want in digital 5.1 or 6.1.

I believe that you should confine your search to B&K, NAD, Outlaw, and Rotel. Any product from any of these companies will be a high quality piece of equipment.

I don't think anybody in this thread is wrong. I just detailed what I would do if this was MY money. Try out the Outlaw 1050 for 30 days with the cost of shipping as your only risk. If it doesn't cut it, return it and buy something else or add an amplifier. If it DOES work, I'd spend the difference on a an SVS subwoofer or a bettter DVD/CD player (or both!).

I'm sure this message is pretty scattered, but I think I got my message across.

-Chase

Frank Z · May 2003

Chase,
Great response! You obviously thought long and hard before spending your hard earned cash. It never hurts to spend your money wisely, but spending it foolishly can be quite painful!

VR3 · May 2003

How dare you forget Adcom???????? Adcom runs with all them mofos you listed! lol! Adcom is sweet stuff!

robodell · May 2003

Chaset - Outlaw is definitely on my list to consider.

Mantis - Yes, I picked up my LSi15s at Interstate Electronics (IEI). I plan to get the rest of my speakers there as well.

As far a receivers go, I remember seeing Sony, Yamaha, and Denon at IEI, but I'll have to call them to see what else they carry. Where should I shop for NAD & Rotel?

Thanks,
robodell

bolson · May 2003

I was just looking at Rotel's RSX-1055. I know that Mantis and many others have recommended this receiver to drive LSi's but it says right by the binding posts "Speaker Impedance 8 ohms minimum."

Will the 4 ohm load of the LSi's have any effect on the warranty of the Rotel?

Just curious.

polkatese · May 2003

That's very interesting! good catch! on my 1065 there is no such statement, is it more of disclaimer rather than the reality? I know Denon make a habit of putting in that their amps only drive 6-16 ohms speakers, but if you go to their website, they spend about 3 parapgraphs to tell people that their amps are a ok to drive 4 ohms load.

TonyPTX · May 2003

Originally posted by bolson
I was just looking at Rotel's RSX-1055. I know that Mantis and many others have recommended this receiver to drive LSi's but it says right by the binding posts "Speaker Impedance 8 ohms minimum." Will the 4 ohm load of the LSi's have any effect on the warranty of the Rotel?

Just curious.

Good observation. Rotel has an FAQ for the 1055 available here. Check out the 3rd question. It clearly states 4 ohms can be run. What I believe you see on the back of these things is what is required by the various marketing laws thus they claim 75W x 5 into 8 ohms thus to reduce confusion they just put 8 ohms on the back of the AVR. I know several folks running 4 ohm speakers with the 1055. As mantis said...."ALL DAY.....ALL DAY."

My $0.02.

Tony

ezc · May 2003

robodell,

If you have $750 now to spend on a reciver, why not wait a while & get somthing that will match with your LSi15 & have enough power to dirve them. mantis is right you have great speakers you should have a reciver or pre/pro to match! I have LSi15's LSiC & LSiFX set up & I can tell you from my experience that the LSiS need power! I read about that in this forum but had not been able to listen to a demo. I was using a Onkyo txds595 to drive the LSis, I figured there was a switch on the back for 6 ohm & above or 6 ohm or lower. I had the switch set to 6 ohm & lower, does it make a difference I dont know. The 595 power rating in the manual was 125 wats at 4 ohm, I figured oh good this would work, it did but as the vol was turned up the sound got worse & worse. I ususlly turned the vol down beacuse the sound was bad. I took the advice of other members here & purchased a Rotel 1065 & that was a very very good advice! The members her know what thier talking about! With the Onkyo reciver it sounded like my lsi were playing still in thier shipping box compared to the rotel. With the Rotel music is much more open, movies have soo much more impact! To me it was night & day. I could have gotten away with the RSX 1055 but I wanted to be sure I had enough power for today & tomorrows upgades. The 1055 is about $700 less than the 1065 & other members are using the 1055 with LSi & have no problems. The 1055 also offers reassignment of the front chanel amp to the rear chanel if you wqant to add a amp down the line for the front! This is just my oppinion hope this helps!

mantis · May 2003

lets feel good about it shall we.........

ALLDAY

ALL WEEK

ALL NEXT YEAR

IT DOESN'T EVEN MATTER HOW LONG!!!!!!!!!!

Best HT Reciever under $750?

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