Teen Suicide Leads to Indictment of 9 Students

Demiurge

NJPOLKER wrote: »

If one stand-up guy had stuck-up for her from my experience that would have make a huge difference.

I agree, but who do you think would have gotten in the most trouble? Yep, the person who stands up to the bully. We're all backwards these days.

hearingimpared

Demiurge wrote: »

I agree, but who do you think would have gotten in the most trouble? Yep, the person who stands up to the bully. We're all backwards these days.

Yep, I couldn't agree more. It's like in a hockey fight, the guy who threw the first punch isn't the one the refs caught or the cheap shot in a football game it is the retaliator.

BACKASSWARDS!!!

nooshinjohn

hearingimpared wrote: »

Yep, I couldn't agree more. It's like in a hockey fight, the guy who threw the first punch isn't the one the refs caught or the cheap shot in a football game it is the retaliator.

BACKASSWARDS!!!

That's how I used to fight the bullies... hockey style! Body check into a locker and commence pummeleing. Worked every time!:eek:

NJPOLKER

Demiurge wrote: »

I agree, but who do you think would have gotten in the most trouble? Yep, the person who stands up to the bully. We're all backwards these days.

I really think the threat alone could be enough to tame the cowardly bullies. However, if that didn't do it maybe a good body shot to the bully/s with no one watching would help. I honestly think she needed a little support from one stand-up guy who could have said lay off !!!!!!!! I know just the type who go around being a bully. And they are cowards. There is not too many things worse than being a coward. And yes I do agree that some situations need to be addressed with a low level of violence.

Things are backwards thats for sure.

Huck344

snow wrote: »

Also the statutory rape charges seem to be with 2 boys that were both minors 17 years old versus 18 so unless there is some law that says sex with with a person as a minor that is 2 years older is a crime then there is more to this story than is revealed. Perhaps there is a law on the books that prohibits sex between children more then 1 year apart in Mass?

Age of consent in MA is 16. She was 15. So, that's why the statutory rape charges. Probably more for the DA to pile on and sensationalize the case for the media.

snow

Huck344 wrote: »

Age of consent in MA is 16. She was 15. So, that's why the statutory rape charges. Probably more for the DA to pile on and sensationalize the case for the media.

Ah I see. I had no idea that sex with someone under 16 was a crime if you were a minor also unless it was against their will. That begs the ? what if all three were 15? would they all be charged the guy/s and the girl? Or would it even be a crime?



REGARDS SNOW

Squidmon

Sorry if I sound heartless, but the girl obviously had to be mentally weak to take her own life, as I feel is the case with anyone who does. I hear 'oh the rape thing', statutory rape can occur WITH consent (it means underaged).
I was born with total function in only my right side as result of being a botched forceps baby. In the early days in school I was the kid with the gimp arm and the Forrest Gump leg brace. Believe me, I took my fair share of abuse. By the spring during 2nd grade, I had had enough of people picking on me and one day took off my legbrace on the playground and subsequently left 2 bullies layin on the ground crying with it, never to wear it again. Over the next few years, I had to periodically silence bullies (sometimes several at a time), and by 6th grade, was not only 'totally accepted' but looked at as one of the leaders at school. When I moved on to the 'big' high school (6000+) kids, it only took a few instances of leaving bullies layin on the hallway floors to get the same sort of treatment i enjoyed in my later grade school years.
In later years, I've endured ruindom by a psycho ex-wife and the death of my younger son, loss of a cushy 100k/yr , 20+yr career due to multiple spine surgeries to living on 2400/month on social security. None of these 'hardships' cause me to ever once contemplate taking my own life, just strengthened my resolve to rise above.
What we have, in my opinion is a load of weak-minded people who are always looking for the easy way out instead of working hard to overcome things. We dont need legislation to protect us from everything. Again, sorry if I sound heartless.

Demiurge

Squidmon wrote: »

What we have, in my opinion is a load of weak-minded people who are always looking for the easy way out instead of working hard to overcome things. We dont need legislation to protect us from everything. Again, sorry if I sound heartless.

You don't. What takes more heart is doing the hard thing, which is usually the right thing. It's easy to want to coddle, but that doesn't help anyone. This girl was never taught to stand up for herself.

NJPOLKER

Squidmon wrote: »

Sorry if I sound heartless, but the girl obviously had to be mentally weak to take her own life, as I feel is the case with anyone who does. I hear 'oh the rape thing', statutory rape can occur WITH consent (it means underaged).
I was born with total function in only my right side as result of being a botched forceps baby. In the early days in school I was the kid with the gimp arm and the Forrest Gump leg brace. Believe me, I took my fair share of abuse. By the spring during 2nd grade, I had had enough of people picking on me and one day took off my legbrace on the playground and subsequently left 2 bullies layin on the ground crying with it, never to wear it again. Over the next few years, I had to periodically silence bullies (sometimes several at a time), and by 6th grade, was not only 'totally accepted' but looked at as one of the leaders at school. When I moved on to the 'big' high school (6000+) kids, it only took a few instances of leaving bullies layin on the hallway floors to get the same sort of treatment i enjoyed in my later grade school years.
In later years, I've endured ruindom by a psycho ex-wife and the death of my younger son, loss of a cushy 100k/yr , 20+yr career due to multiple spine surgeries to living on 2400/month on social security. None of these 'hardships' cause me to ever once contemplate taking my own life, just strengthened my resolve to rise above.
What we have, in my opinion is a load of weak-minded people who are always looking for the easy way out instead of working hard to overcome things. We dont need legislation to protect us from everything. Again, sorry if I sound heartless.

You do not sound heartless to me. Quite the contrary. You have overcome more than most because you have a big heart.
What's heartless are the cowards who gang up on a person or persons. There is absolutely no excuse for the people involved in this case. A total disgrace and this girl did nothing to deserve this kind of treatment. Can you imagine how desperate she must have felt???

bobman1235

I'm far from a bleeding heart, but somewhere there is a line between being mentally weak and mentally ill. I have no idea on which side of the line this girl fell, I'm just saying, there are things in our control and things that are not. Squidmon may have been dealt a **** physical hand at birth but he was also obviously born with a strong will. Not everyone is so lucky.

I don't like to excuse everyone's actions as "that's just how they are" but I do accept that depression and addiction are sometimes beyond conscious control.

shadowofnight

Demiurge wrote: »

The only reason bullying gets to this level is that the kid that stands up to the bully and bashes his or her face in gets in heaps of trouble. In our litigious society the victim would get sued for retaliation. It's ridiculous. If you're going to be a bully having your teeth knocked in should be a risk of that behavior. Kind of like how if you're going to be a criminal gettin' your **** shot should be a hazard of the trade.

I was always a big enough kid in school that I never got screwed with, but I watched friends get bullied and what always ended it was when they would take a stand and sock the bully in the kisser. I helped out a few times.

Old school and it works.

No, I'm not saying that getting picked on means you have a right to punch someone, but eventually it's the only thing that gets the message across.

Zero tolerance is for people who don't have functioning brains in their heads. Every situation is different.

+1

The only thing that works against violent offenders of any age is violence itself....time outs...no donut...suspensions...petty fines and short jail time ...etc dont work at all.

ShinAce

Ok, let's clear up a little something.

Statutory does not mean underage, it means no-consent.

You can be 15 and willing, but you're not considered legal age of consent.

You can be a 30 year old mentally challenged person and willing, but again, your right to consent may not exist.

Both are considered statutory rape. As for two 15 year olds, I wonder.

bobman1235

shadowofnight wrote: »

The only thing that works against violent offenders of any age is violence itself....time outs...no donut...suspensions...petty fines and short jail time ...etc dont work at all.

Except the fact that every ACTUAL study on the topic shows that you couldn't be more wrong. Science is a ****.

Demiurge

bobman1235 wrote: »

Except the fact that every ACTUAL study on the topic shows that you couldn't be more wrong. Science is a ****.

Studies!

I can do a study and get it to say whatever the hell I want it to. Use your head.

If you want to stop a bully nothing works better than the bully getting his or her **** kicked.

bobman1235

I am using my head, and using actual science to back it up.

We're talking about children, and children learn by what they see. When you teach a kid that the way to solve a problem is with violence, then what do you think they're going to do when they encounter a problem in the future? Talk it out?

In teh case of bullies, it's probably "too late", as someone already taught them to be violent which is why they're bullies in the first place. But I don't see how reinforcing it is going to help anything. It'll probably solve the immediate problem but just makes that bully more violent in the future to other people.

Don't get me wrong, a kid being bullied SHOULD fight back, but the blanket statement that the only way to stop violence is to teach violence is just flat wrong.

shadowofnight

bobman1235 wrote: »

Except the fact that every ACTUAL study on the topic shows that you couldn't be more wrong. Science is a ****.

You can get a so called study to tell you anything you want to hear, in the real world the threat of violence is the ONLY thing that keeps law and order in any society.

Do you think any hardened criminal would listen to a policeman if they didnt have the means ( Taser...firearm ) to put them on the ground temporarily or permanently ?

Like it or not , violence works to keep order....even on the schoolyard.

Demiurge

bobman1235 wrote: »

I am using my head, and using actual science to back it up.

What science is that? You didn't even explain what you disagreed with and just told him he was wrong.

I'm using personal experiences for my viewpoint. Giving a detention or suspension to a bully isn't fool proof. I have seen many bullies take a school yard **** kicking and step off.

Bullies are usually cowards and nothing stuns a coward more than their victim fighting back.

bobman1235 wrote: »

We're talking about children, and children learn by what they see. When you teach a kid that the way to solve a problem is with violence, then what do you think they're going to do when they encounter a problem in the future? Talk it out?

These aren't children...these are young adults. I'll argue the point, though. Anyone teaching a child to respond to every situation with violence is an idiot. Equally idiotic is teaching a child to respond to every situation as a pacifist.

bobman1235 wrote: »

In teh case of bullies, it's probably "too late", as someone already taught them to be violent which is why they're bullies in the first place. But I don't see how reinforcing it is going to help anything. It'll probably solve the immediate problem but just makes that bully more violent in the future to other people.

Bullies aren't always violent. Bullying is often verbal and that's probably the most common type of bullying.

What's the recidivism rate on a bully after getting his **** kicked in? Did they do a study on that?

I'd exhaust all of the diplomatic means of solving a situation, but at some point the victim needs to be able to defend himself. Our pussified and sue happy society has pretty much taken that option off the table. The bully ends up having more rights than their victims.

To me, that's sickening.

bobman1235 wrote: »

Don't get me wrong, a kid being bullied SHOULD fight back, but the blanket statement that the only way to stop violence is to teach violence is just flat wrong.

Yeah, and nobody made that statement.

shack

Demiurge wrote:

These aren't children...these are young adults.

14,15,16,17 year olds are NOT young adults. They would like to think so and society would often like to treat them as such...but the science says as a general rule they are far from what one would consider to be "adult" from a mental development and sociological standpoint.

shadowofnight

On the schoolyard , 9 out of 10 times there is no teacher around to even hand out a meager time out or suspension...and the one getting bullied is too afraid to report it anyways. Without the threat of violence ( A couple of missing teeth and a bloody nose when he/she picks on the wrong kid ) there is absolutely nothing to pursuade him/her from having their fun being a bully.

On a larger scale....

Whats the first thing that happens to a city/country when the police disappear during a natural disaster such as an earthquake or hurricane as we have seen in the recent past ?

The looting...raping...murdering starts immediately...this has even been proven recently with Katrina....Haiti...etc. Then it becomes whoever can physically protect themselves ( Either through physical capability or with a really nice equalizer like a firearm ) survives the disaster....the weaker individuals become prey of the stronger individuals.

And these horrific crimes arent just done by the hardened criminals during a disaster.....once the threat of violent opposition by the police is removed...even normally law abiding citizens lash out and commit crimes because they can without fear of being physically subdued or killed by police .

Its just on a smaller scale on the schoolyard....bullies will pick on submissive individuals because they dont have any real fear of anything bad happening to them with their actions.

When they get that first kid to lay them out on the ground....they typically stop bullying other kids as well.


So you can believe studies all you want, remove the threat of violence that keeps law and order in all societies...and it all reverts back to the strong survive...the weak get preyed upon.

bobman1235

Forget I said anything; Demi's right, I'm arguing against a position that wasn't even made, and I have no desire to get into this debate.

Demiurge

bobman1235 wrote: »

Forget I said anything; Demi's right, I'm arguing against a position that wasn't even made, and I have no desire to get into this debate.

I think we probably agree more than not anyways. All options are on the table, but trying to handle it 'diplomatically' should be the first move rather than resorting to violence.

snow

Squidmon wrote: »

Sorry if I sound heartless, but the girl obviously had to be mentally weak to take her own life, as I feel is the case with anyone who does. I hear 'oh the rape thing', statutory rape can occur WITH consent (it means underaged).
I was born with total function in only my right side as result of being a botched forceps baby. In the early days in school I was the kid with the gimp arm and the Forrest Gump leg brace. Believe me, I took my fair share of abuse. By the spring during 2nd grade, I had had enough of people picking on me and one day took off my legbrace on the playground and subsequently left 2 bullies layin on the ground crying with it, never to wear it again. Over the next few years, I had to periodically silence bullies (sometimes several at a time), and by 6th grade, was not only 'totally accepted' but looked at as one of the leaders at school. When I moved on to the 'big' high school (6000+) kids, it only took a few instances of leaving bullies layin on the hallway floors to get the same sort of treatment i enjoyed in my later grade school years.
In later years, I've endured ruindom by a psycho ex-wife and the death of my younger son, loss of a cushy 100k/yr , 20+yr career due to multiple spine surgeries to living on 2400/month on social security. None of these 'hardships' cause me to ever once contemplate taking my own life, just strengthened my resolve to rise above.
What we have, in my opinion is a load of weak-minded people who are always looking for the easy way out instead of working hard to overcome things. We dont need legislation to protect us from everything. Again, sorry if I sound heartless.

Well it does sound heartless because it is. I applaud you for overcoming your problems but your situations that you overcame has no bearing on her situation, obviously what has happened to you wasnt enough to drive you to suicide and hers was. I dont know exactly what she went through at school and at home but as mentioned earlier the teenage years are the worst times of your life emotionally which can and does cause people to react differntly then if those things had occured before or after. Which it sounds like from your story wasnt that bad during that time period was awful for her and until you walked in her shoes per se It would be hard to judge her IMHO.

I know of a local girl that was a straight A student wasnt picked on or bullied that I am aware of but the pressure put on her by her parents to achieve was intense and one day she came home after finding out that her GPA had fallen below Ivy leauge qualifications and went to where her father kept his weapons chose a 45 automatic went to her bedroom and blew her brains out.

The peer pressure that kids today suffer from and the bullying she went through coupled with the fact that she obviously had no one to talk to about at home about what was going on was more than she could handle and she felt that suicide was better than living.

Now introducing a new law may not be the best way to deal with bullying that involves criminal behavior when this type of thing should be reported anyways as a matter of course and most likely will be abused.



REGARDS SNOW

Squidmon

Which it sounds like from your story wasnt that bad during that time period was awful for her and until you walked in her shoes per se It would be hard to judge her IMHO.

On top of the bullying and everything else,....holding the dead body of my 3 yr old son doesn't sound too bad? You obviously have no clue. I've walked several miles in some ****-packed shoes. I still stand by my assessment, heartless or not.

snow

Squidmon wrote: »

On top of the bullying and everything else,....holding the dead body of my 3 yr old son doesn't sound too bad? You obviously have no clue. I've walked several miles in some ****-packed shoes. I still stand by my assessment, heartless or not.

Obviously you misunderstood what I said, no one has said you havent went through and may still be going through a lot. The difference between what has happened to you and what happened to her is when it happened. You brought up your son, well unless you were a father at 12 it didnt happen when you were 15 and as mentioned for the 3rd time now the teenage years are the worst years emotionally to deal with difficult situations. Your problems as bad they were and may still be didnt happen at the same time period and with the same set of parents, the same school staff that ignored the bullying etc.

Every situation is unique and it isnt fair in my oppinion to judge others by what has occured to you, If anything I would think you would be sympathetic considering what you have went through rather than being judgemental.



REGARDS SNOW

Squidmon

Well considering that I started behind the 8ball at birth. My trials and tribulations did indeed extend thru my childhood and teenage years. No, the grand finale (my son) didn't occur until my later 20's. Let me give you some perspective.
There is NOTHING that you can endure that's worse than losing a perfectly healthy child, nothing at all. In fact, I think the bullying and other crap I endured as I grew up may be the only thing that may have enabled me to get thru that.
So, what I'm saying is that it can always be worse. There's nothing (in my opinion) that's bad enough to to take your own life (sans a few very extenuating circumstances, eg. the people in the WTC that were facing imminent horrible death by burning etc). I will stand by that till the day that I die.
Life is filled with trials and we're given only one chance. Gotta make the best of it regardless of the hand you were dealt.
I'm not being judgemental, I am being opinionated.

kevhed72

This entire story is very sad, and a couple points come to my mind:
1. Was any Counselor or Administrator at the school repremanded, or fired, for allowing this level of harrassment occur?
2. Do parents educate their kids on the PROPER USE of electronic media these days, whether it be Facebook, cell phones, intranet, etc.?

As far as the mental 'stability' of the deceased girl, you can only speculate at this point.

shack

Squidmon wrote:

Well considering that I started behind the 8ball at birth. My trials and tribulations did indeed extend thru my childhood and teenage years. No, the grand finale (my son) didn't occur until my later 20's. Let me give you some perspective.
There is NOTHING that you can endure that's worse than losing a perfectly healthy child, nothing at all. In fact, I think the bullying and other crap I endured as I grew up may be the only thing that may have enabled me to get thru that.
So, what I'm saying is that it can always be worse. There's nothing (in my opinion) that's bad enough to to take your own life (sans a few very extenuating circumstances, eg. the people in the WTC that were facing imminent horrible death by burning etc). I will stand by that till the day that I die.
Life is filled with trials and we're given only one chance. Gotta make the best of it regardless of the hand you were dealt.I'm not being judgemental, I am being opinionated.

Very well put. You are to be congratulated for the way you approach life.

I have no fear of death...but I will put it off as long as possible (while still LIVING to the fullest extent possible) and suck in that last gasp of air with everything I've got.

mmadden28

Vette C6.r wrote: »

...

BTW does Mass. release the names of juvies ?? MD would never name them.

...

I thought the same thing--I didn't think the media/law was allowed to release the names of children under 18. At least not until there was was some kind of adult level conviction or something like that.

snow

Squidmon wrote: »

Well considering that I started behind the 8ball at birth. My trials and tribulations did indeed extend thru my childhood and teenage years. No, the grand finale (my son) didn't occur until my later 20's. Let me give you some perspective.
There is NOTHING that you can endure that's worse than losing a perfectly healthy child, nothing at all. In fact, I think the bullying and other crap I endured as I grew up may be the only thing that may have enabled me to get thru that.
So, what I'm saying is that it can always be worse. There's nothing (in my opinion) that's bad enough to to take your own life (sans a few very extenuating circumstances, eg. the people in the WTC that were facing imminent horrible death by burning etc). I will stand by that till the day that I die.
Life is filled with trials and we're given only one chance. Gotta make the best of it regardless of the hand you were dealt.
I'm not being judgemental, I am being opinionated.

Once again you have failed to see what I am trying to show you. Your physical problems began at birth so even though you had that problem or problems assoicated with it you had learned to adapt by age 15 no different than someone born blind or deaf etc and the fact that you were bullied earlier on and learned to deal with that certainly helped you deal with further adversity.

And I am not saying that what has happened in your life especially the loss of your son wasnt as bad or even worse than what happened to her just that these events happened at different times in life when you were better able to handle it.

Unless the identical set of things happened to both of you at the same age and with the same set of friends, parents, counsleors at school etc you cant compare your problems with hers simple as that. For example boys deal with bullying in a different manner than most girls will or can do if as a boy your way of dealing with it is a good **** whipping which works wonders, with a girl it's a little different story if a boy bullys a girl or even another girl is her answer going to be to kick your ****? doubtful I would think. You were able to stop most of it physically that most likely wasnt an option for her.

I also agree with you on that there is nothing or no one worth commiting suicide over but Im not 15 and female

What bothered me more than anything else about your intial statement was what I perceived and still do as a lack of compassion and any understanding.

Irregardless you are entitled to your oppinion and beliefs and I am not going to fight with you over it.

REGARDS SNOW

Squidmon

Contrary to your perception, I'm probably one of the most compassionate people you'd ever meet. I just call it as I see it, nothing else.