Musical subs?

Tour2ma · May 2003

Sorry, but I'm seeing this term more and more here lately, and I don't get it. Either a sub faithfully reproduces what it is sent or it doesn't.

Yeah, HT demands are greater, but if a sub can handle those very well, isn't it logical that it can handle music?

BeginnersLuck · May 2003

Hmm, what is the best way to put this....HT subs tend to extend lower in the frequency range. By doing this, many design factors include having to sacrifice the drivers accuracy to play the signal at a lower freq. Many HT subs try to maintain a flat response down to about 20Hz (ideal) and then roll off. A "musical sub" would be a sub that is designed for the sole purpose of musical accuracy(no extended freq. response or exageration) with a very slow natural roll off. HT subs tend to roll off a lot faster once you reach the corner freq. I guess the best way to describe it is to play a really fast music track with successive quick bass notes. The HT sub will tend to blend the quick notes into a one long note while the the musical sub would be able to punch all of the notes out quickly and precisely.

Hope this helps,
-BL

Dr. Spec · May 2003

Subjective impressions can ALWAYS be tied to objective and measurable performance parameters.

There are MANY variables that affect the perception that a certain sub is more "musical" than another.

1) Frequency Response. Even a slight emphasis in the mid range (40-80 Hz) can make the pitch or line of a bass instrument (like an acoustic bass guitar) easier to follow.

2) Transient Reponse. A driver that can follow abrupt changes in signal amplitude without delay is obviously preferable. Transient response is measured in milliseconds and can be measured on the front and back side of the signal as a function of time delay.

On the front side, poor TR can impart a sense of "sluggishness" to the sound and is often described as "poor attack".

On the back side of the signal path, poor TR is a function of how long the driver continues to produce its own sound after the signal stops. This can impart a sense of "sloppiness" to the sound, and is often described as "bass ring" or "overhang".

The best way to assess TR is to play a rapid succession of brief transients at the same frequency (say 50 Hz), and the sub should sound very staccato and there should be an audible lack of sound between each pulse.

TR is largely a function of driver design and quality, amp quality (damping factor) and the enclosure alignment. IB and sealed alignment theoretically will have the best TR characteristics, but a good vented design can come close.

3) Group Delay. GD is defined as an actual shift in the phase characteristics of the alignment as measured over the frequency range. It is also measured in milliseconds, and a sub that has low group delay numbers at all frequencies in the audible range will be perceived as "coherent", and one that has poor GD numbers will be pervceived as "loose" or "vague".

GD is largely a function of alignment, with sealed and IB once again having the theoretical edge. A proper vented design can keep GD numbers very close to a sealed design until it reaches the tune point, at which point GD rises sharply by design. GD cannot be reliably detected below about 25-35 ms, and cannot be detected at all near the subsonic threashold of hearing, which is why this is usually a non-issue for a vented design which has a deep tune point.

4) THD and IMD. Harmonic and intermodulation distortion affect how "clean" the sub will sound, especially at low frequencies and high volume. Subs with high THD/IMD numbers are often described as "muddy". Conversely, a sub with excellent distortion characteristics will render all individual notes clearly, especially very deep ones, which are particularly hard to reproduce cleanly due to the increased excursion requirements.

5) Deep extension. Truly deep bass takes time to decay in a room; it's the nature of the beast. Enthusiasts hearing genuine room decay for the first time often mistakenly identify this as "overhang", "bass ring", or general "slowness". It is often said in bass circles - "no decay means no deep bass". A sealed design is often limited to around 30 Hz, and thus lacks true room decay and the lack of this characteristic is often incorrectly viewed as a positive trait.

Bottom line - get informed, learn to identify and distinguish these different sounds and characteristics and then let your ears be the final judge.

Doc

Tour2ma · May 2003

Thanks BL and Doc...

Reads like some subs are definitely more musical than others by design, or lack thereof, depending upon the manufacturers goals, i.e., price range and such. However, I see nothing in your write ups that says music and HT performance have to be mutually exclusive, and some in Docs that they are not.

There is precious little music of which I am aware that exists below 30 Hz, so it would seem that deep extension would predominantly be the realm of DVDs and HT. Yes? Even so, I do not see your argument BL that just because a sub can reproduce signals below 30 Hz that it would color music when those frequencies are not present. I would think it should do nothing in that range. Must confess that I do not know the term corner frequency.

I can see where increases driver size/ mass to reach deeper creates a driver that has more difficulty tracking music (TR), but again that can be overcome. It seems to me logical that it must be overcome to be a good HT sub. Its not like DVDs bass exists below 30 and above 80 HZ and has no information in between. If a subs TR performance is not good, will it not muddy up any information in that quick range, be it music or a machine gun firing?

Anyway, my brain hurts so Ill wrap up now till another day. Right now I am having trouble identifying any measures in Docs list where it makes sense to me that you could sacrifice performance in a musical sub and end up with anything except a less satisfying HT sub

Dr. Spec · May 2003

Originally posted by Tour2ma
I can see where increases driver size/ mass to reach deeper creates a driver that has more difficulty tracking music (TR), but again that can be overcome.

This is a myth that refuses to die. Here is a great read on the subject from one of the most respected woofer makers in the business.

http://www.adireaudio.com/tech_papers/woofer_speed.htm

I've said it many times - a sub will sound as it measures. If it has flat FR, deep extension, low GD, good TR, low THD and IMD, and a linear SPL/FR at all volumes within its safe operating range then it will sound awesome - period.

There are theoretical advantages and disadvantages to all of the popular alignments. It is with superior design/build techniques and materials of construction that the former can be maximized and the latter minimized.

Music and HT are not mutually exclusive domains. A sub that does both extremely well will quite simply cost more. Some of the finest and most critically acclaimed subs in the world are vented. It's just a whole lot harder to perfect a vented alignment, but it can be done.

Doc

Tour2ma · May 2003

Good read Doc, and another reference site added to my fav's.

I would like to see increasing driver mass examined in the light of Newton's first Law. Would seem that to control the inertia of progressively larger diameter, heavier cones, one would increase the size of the voice coil. However, in addition to adding to the mass of the driver, this also brings the current control concerns mentioned in the paper into play.

Balancing act, trade-offs.... headaches... That Damn Newton, if he hadn't written those laws, things would be so much simpler...

GuitarheadCA · May 2003

Well it's been shown that under a certain percentage of conditions (ie. realtivistic speeds and atomic masses) Newton was actually wrong! So if you want a more accurate picture of the behavior of things around us, study Einstien's special relativity! But you need to hold on to your hat if you do, because it gets intense!

Sorry, I had to add that because I just finished two quarters at UCD studying special relativity and quantum mechanics (at the end of which I was begging for Newton's laws back).

Either way- great posts Doc, both were very informative.

Tour2ma · May 2003

Great as if Newton wasn't enough to deal with...

Gh, what's UCD? U of Cal... Dude?

GuitarheadCA · May 2003

In central California, somewhere not too far from Sacramento there exits a small college town of Davis. Yes, where everyone who has ever had anything to do with this town of 40,000 is associated with the university.

We also have the highest number of Bicycles per capita in the entire world! It's bicycle madness!

mantis · May 2003

I'll agree with that...

Musical subs and Home Theater subs exist.Many many subs out there just don't sound good when asked to replay music.Now this depends on the level of quality asked by the given listener.

Example.....me
I find most subs annoying.Most subs have a BOOM factor.You can hear exactly where they are,they sound very forced and unnatural.Alot of subs will **** when asked to play hard bass notes.Like the torture test of U-571.Star Wars can rip apart a sub as well.

Sub's that I have found to be musical seem to give a very good Home Theater bass.I don't care for Punch and BOOM so I enjoy a sub when I can't hear it.This is what I perfer to listen to.

B&K ASW SERIES - yes very musical subs.Really well made.Clean and very clear.

REL - it doesn't even matter which one,they all are very musical.The best of the best in my opnion at there price points.

VELODYNE FS,HGS - some the the all time greatest subs ever made.Unbelieveable performance.Musical abilities are there in there high end lines.There lower lines are boomy and sloppy.Even the SPL line has alot of flaws.Very directional and forced sounding.

DYNAUDIO - all of there subs are very musical.Home theater performance is very respectable.

WILSON AUDIO - beast......Plays both extremely well.

MARTIN LOGAN - same.Super powerful and super quick.Really nice subs,both of them.

SUNFIRE - good home theater subs but not very good musical subs.They require extremely intensive placement and setup to get them to sound good for both.I don't perfer them but strangely enough impressive due to the cabnet size.Those little cubes rock.Unbelieveable force bd levels come from such a small design........impressive.I can't go on to say they suck or there great....there somewhere in the middle and I believe personal preference is where it's at here.I have heard the true sub sound pretty musical setup and I have also heard it sound like crap.....an inhome demo would be needed to continue my opnion.

DEFINITIVE TECHNOLOGY - I have read all the reviews,I have listened plenty of times,I just don't think they are that impressive.From what reviewers say,these subs should be TAKE IT THE EFF OUT sub to me they souds pretty good but not above the rest.I expected more then what they give.The super cube subs are really nice,there built nice,they sound nice......but again not better then others in there price class.Musical????yeah they can be,home theater they excell at.In my opnion they do sound a bit boomy and forced.The very 2 things I don't care for in a sub.Overall I could tollerate there sound quality but wouldn't want to own one.

KLIPSCH - terrible sounding subs of the past.Flat out junk.They do however have newer lines today.They sound 300% better then they did.Still Boomy and very forced sounding.Super powerfull and can fill larger room sizes.Not Musical at all.It can do it but it makes your musical experience sound like a poorly designed powered tower......

BOSTON ACOUSTIC - nice dollar to dollar subs.You get exaclty what you pay for.Musical and theater performance goes hand and hand.I like there subs,not enough to own one but I respect there level of performance to cost ratio.

POLK - I have mixed feelings about polk subs of then and now.Some really sound good like the psw1200,the psw450,and the psw650.Musical and home theater is very like Boston,cost and performance goes hand and hand.I feel polk had bettered there older subs like the psw300 and 150 of then.I found them to sound pretty good but hard to make GO AWAY in most rooms.

MIRAGE - terrible.Again this company has alot to learn about making subs.I haven't heard a Mirage sub I really liked yeat.They make some really good speakers but man Where's Velodyne when you need them????

Well there's some examples of what subs I have listened to and have time enough with them to give a honest opnion.

Dr. Spec · May 2003

Great post, Dan. Great to hear from someone who has experience with several brands.

http://www.wilsonaudio.com/products/xs/index.html

Wilson XS $18,000 plus $4,000 for the crossover network.

Might I add - a (ahem) VENTED design - 'nuff said. Read on my friends.

From A Review:

"The XS delivers bass that transcends anything Ive heard, in both quality and quantity."

"The scale and majesty of the bass is simply bigger and more powerful than Ive ever heard before from reproduced music. Although the XS produced massive amounts of bass, it also completely disappeared into the system."

"The impact that the XS had on the sound of my system was phenomenal. Once the whiz-bang effects were out of the way, like shaking Wedgwood off shelves three rooms away, I listened seriously to as many music selections as I could find with low bass. Ive come to realize that there is more low bass present in many recordings than I had previously thought -- not only music, but also the resonant character of the acoustic space."

"On this recording, the sheer impact of the sound must be experienced to be believed. When the kickdrum enters, a physical blow is delivered that is as angry as Hetfields voice. Its quite exhilarating."

"On the track 'Attack on Murron', at about two minutes in, the bass is thunderous. In addition, the soundspace envelops and melts the walls, leaving you with a close approximation of the recorded event. The soundstage expands, exposing the ambient cues hidden in the recording for the first time. More than once I left my seat to look outside, go to the front door, or upstairs to investigate sounds I would have sworn were not coming from the stereo. It was quite spooky."

"The XS is about smashing boundaries that existed before its creation."

"The XS is limitless, bottomless, and gives 'effortless' new meaning."

"Although its performance is hard to fathom, the XS does unquestionably live up to its name, which I guess says it all."

mantis · May 2003

Doc,
We had the Wison watch dog upstairs in our reference theater room.NowSoundex isn't a small audio store.It;s rather large housing 2 floors and 24 rooms.This damn thing could shack the damn basement from the 2nd floor with impact.When we ran it at reference levels and slightly behond,the entire 2nd floor became it's victom......Musical......unbelieveably.

There was a sub I have heard that actually out performed this monster,that chair is given to Krells Master Reference sub.This thing actuall made me move back during the ToyStory 2 "cross the Road" where Buzz and comapny was trying to save Woddy.
I never experienced anything like that.Velodyne fs18 would bow down and kiss the very earth where the Master reference sat.

goingganzo · May 2003

wow that sub is huge. it is about the same size as mine but in a different shape. to put it in referance i can hit 120db @16hz and i olny spent a grand on my sub amp included.

dan t · May 2003

Hi Mantis,

Reading your post about the Velo Subs,

Even the SPL line has alot of flaws.Very directional and forced sounding.

I own the SPL-1200 and find it's bass real tight and accurate. I'm confused as to what you mean on "very directional" when comparing the SPL series to the HGS series.

Dan

GuitarheadCA · May 2003

I'm conviced Mantis has a level of hearing that few of us can match. I'm in your boat Dan, I own the SPL 1000, and the 800, and I love the sound of both. (actually it was partly on your advice that I got those subs about 9 months ago). But anyway, I'm curious as well to see if Mantis can elaborate more on what he said with regards to the Velo's.

PS. Dan- where do you live in SoCal?

burdette · May 2003

What I haven't really heard yet in this discussion is that manufacturers build subs that they believe the average consumer will want to buy, i.e. the sub sounds like what the average consumer thinks bass "should" sound like.

I agree completely with Doc that a good sub that does all things well can perform wonderfully with either music or HT. But if the price point doesn't allow for doing all things well, then the design will be altered to emphasize the sonic characteristics that make either music or HT, but not both, sound 'better.' It is much easier to design a sub that handles only ONE end of the spectrum. And, I think the 'average consumer' is drawn more to the compromised boomy design over the compromised tigher more 'accurate' design, for both HT and music. So, less expensive subs are designed to appeal to what Joe Average HT buyer wants to hear.. LOUD booming explosions and space ships and gunshots.

I think this is what is continuing the myth that bass reflex designs are inherently boomy.

Without the explosion of home theater, there wouldn't be even a quarter of the subs on the market now as there are, and certainly not the bottom few tiers. Edit: AND, I think that is why you have to spend more money to get a "musical" sub.. you have to push up to the price point where the manufacturer is indeed trying to do all things well. For the same money spent, you can build a cheap DIY sub that emphasizes either HT or music, ... but manufacturers aren't making the cheaper 'musical' subs because those of us interested in music as much as HT want better overall.

I believe this same "what the consumer thinks" approach dominated mass-produced low-to-mid priced speakers in the late 80s, especially. People thought BIG was better, so you saw a shitload of speaker systems with big drivers that did indeed play LOUD and looked BIG. God, I didn't think I'd **EVER** stop hearing that awful heavy metal song that starts out with the revving motorcycle... it was THE demo song of choice for the local Best Buy, pushing crappy but loud speakers.

So... my girlfriend at the time, now my wife, and I went to a quiet little home-grown audio store with our Enya and Tracy Chapman and piano concertos.. and she bought Polks (Monitor 5jr+, to be exact).

GuitarheadCA · May 2003

She's A Keeper!

dan t · May 2003

GuitarheadCA · May 2003

I live in Riverside - I shoulda gotten a Demo of the 1200 before I made my SPL purchase :-)

Peter

mantis · May 2003

dan t,

I own the SPL-1200 and find it's bass real tight and accurate. I'm confused as to what you mean on "very directional" when comparing the SPL series to the HGS series.

Before I get started on what I meant,remember that it's just my opnion and personal experience with the products.Velodyne makes wonderful subs and has been for years.I am very cridical how a sub sounds.My standards are very high.

The spl series subs are cool.They are very small and impressive.Without comparing them to anything else,they sound powerfull and pretty tight.I was amazed how much sound comes from that small box.But....
I compared the spl series to 2 different subs and found myself liking the others better.The one was a Sunfire True sub and the other a HGS 10.The HGS was the best out of the 3 my far.It was completely gone in the room.It wasn't hard to do so.I played with it for awhile and was shocked how quick and tight it sounded.Note came and went with leaving feeling behind.Sound was gone but Impact was still present.....The Sunfire sub sounded alittle better in the fact it wasn't as directional ,what that means is I could tell exactly where the sound was coming from.The HGS sub fooled you into thinking there was no sub.....The Sunfire and SPL did not.I could close my eyes and hear the Sunfire where it sat.The SPL was even more"I"m right here".

I played both music and movies threw these subs.The HGS was just breath taking.The others subs where very good,but didn't perfrom as well as the HGS.The SPL was the worse out of the 3,but even being so,it's still a great sub.I find it to be better then alot of other subs on the market.Many subs that I have listened to sound terrible.I can't believe the asking price sometimes.

GuitarheadCA,

I'm conviced Mantis has a level of hearing that few of us can match.

I'm not sure what this means but all I can say is I have listened to thousands of subs in thousands of different rooms.Experience might be what I have over most,I have good 20-20 hearing,but so do alot of people.I also might be more cridical then most.....who knows.
I hope you have a better understanding about how I feel about the SPL line from Velodyne.There nice subs but not a HGS quality or level.......compare them side by side listen and you'll see.

Dr. Spec · May 2003

Dan's subjective experience about how easy it is to localize a sub gels perfectly with the harmonic distortion level of each.

Without doubt, the HGS sub has the lowest THD of the three, and is therefore the hardest to localize (assuming they were all filtered at 80 Hz or lower).

High levels of harmonic distortion result in audible and easily localized harmonics well above the filter point of the sub because the cone itself is creating the sound, not the source signal.

For example if you use a filter point of 80 Hz, a subwoofer with high THD might produce second order distortion harmonics as high as 160 Hz, and third order harmonics as high as 240 Hz. This type of audible distortion is easily localized.

The Velo HGS series of subs is world class - still a reference standard by which all others are measured in each respective price class.

Doc

GuitarheadCA · May 2003

Dan M., or Doc, or anyone else,

Have you ever heard of HGS (or other servo) subs being problematic? When I bought my SPL little less than a year ago, I serously looked into the HGS, but the VAST majority of online reviews I read wrote about their HGS's being very problematic. People said, the servo's would make weird noises, some would just go crazy sputtering out and eventually blowing the woofer. They said they could hear clicking noises coming from the sub during quite passages, and a host of other weird stuff. And this wasn't just one or two people, I read review after review of this happening. And that's what tipped the scale for me.

Any Comments - Any experience w/ this?

Guitarhead

Dr. Spec · May 2003

Originally posted by GuitarheadCA
Dan M., or Doc, or anyone else,

Have you ever heard of HGS (or other servo) subs being problematic? When I bought my SPL little less than a year ago, I serously looked into the HGS, but the VAST majority of online reviews I read wrote about their HGS's being very problematic. People said, the servo's would make weird noises, some would just go crazy sputtering out and eventually blowing the woofer. They said they could hear clicking noises coming from the sub during quite passages, and a host of other weird stuff. And this wasn't just one or two people, I read review after review of this happening. And that's what tipped the scale for me.

Any Comments - Any experience w/ this?

Guitarhead

I have no direct experience with this. I have only heard the HGS line in auditions. Audio Review has a bunch of owner reviews for the HGS series. You might find some answers there.

Doc

http://www.audioreview.com/Subwoofers/PLS_2741_86crx.aspx