TrueHD w/ PS3 to Pioner Elite SC-27

SolidSqual

How do I send TrueHD audio to the SC-27 from the PS3? Is it possible? I've read telling the PS3 to convert the signal to PCM is the same. Is this true?

leroyjr1

If you have the old ps3 then the ps3 does the decoding all the time and it will read PCM on your sc-27. The newer ps3 will allow you to have the receiver do the decoding and that's when it'll read TrueHD on the avr screen.

I've also found that having my elite receiver doing the decoding the SQ is better versus having the blu Ray player doing the decoding.

SolidSqual

What's a good BD player for bitstreaming to the avr?

leroyjr1

SolidSqual wrote: »

What's a good BD player for bitstreaming to the avr?

I use an Elite. Oppo is also a good choice. I think all the stand alone bdp's allow you to bitstream.

What price did you have in mind? The Pioneer bdp 51fd Nick sold Ben is a great player.

SolidSqual

Ok, I can get an Elite 23FD for around $250. This will allow me to get the great sound of my receiver right? But, how does the picture compare to the Oppo? Is is better than the PS3?

Thanks for all your answers.

Mike

mantis

SolidSqual wrote: »

Ok, I can get an Elite 23FD for around $250. This will allow me to get the great sound of my receiver right? But, how does the picture compare to the Oppo? Is is better than the PS3?

Thanks for all your answers.

Mike

Unless you have any other reason to get out of the PS3 , there is no audio difference between the Ps3 and the Pioneer Elite decoding. I had the Ps3 and own a Cambridge 650BD with using my SC-07. I tried PCM over the PS3 vs the Cambridge sending it to the SC-07 and it sounds exactly the same. Both units are connected HDMI. I have yet to try 6 channel out and see if that makes any audio difference.
Picture quality is exactly the same over HDMI using Blu ray. I have not tried DVD. I don't own the Ps3 anymore and didn't use it for DVD as I also have a Pioneer ELite DV58av. It's dvd quality is fantastic and I have no desire to compare it to the Cambridge as I don't watch many DVD's anymore.
You do get all your audio formats with the older Ps3 , it just sends it over PCM which sounds exactly like the original signal because it is the original signal just decoded at the PS3 instead of the ELite.

I once thought as you do.

leroyjr1

mantis wrote: »

Unless you have any other reason to get out of the PS3 , there is no audio difference between the Ps3 and the Pioneer Elite decoding. I had the Ps3 and own a Cambridge 650BD with using my SC-07. I tried PCM over the PS3 vs the Cambridge sending it to the SC-07 and it sounds exactly the same. Both units are connected HDMI. I have yet to try 6 channel out and see if that makes any audio difference.
Picture quality is exactly the same over HDMI using Blu ray. I have not tried DVD. I don't own the Ps3 anymore and didn't use it for DVD as I also have a Pioneer ELite DV58av. It's dvd quality is fantastic and I have no desire to compare it to the Cambridge as I don't watch many DVD's anymore.
You do get all your audio formats with the older Ps3 , it just sends it over PCM which sounds exactly like the original signal because it is the original signal just decoded at the PS3 instead of the ELite.

I once thought as you do.

I noticed a difference having my Pioneer receiver doing the decoding. The detail is much better and it has better separation.

Solidsqual I have a Pioneer bdp-51fd you can borrow for a few weeks so you can see if there's a difference to you.

SolidSqual

Hey Leroy, thanks for the offer. I'll get back to you about it. I'm going to mull over what I want to do.

On another note, I've been doing some testing back and forth between the SC-27 and the PS3. If I set the PS3 to bitstream and set the Pioneer to Autio Surround (meaning it picks the best signal), then the sound is absolutely fantastic, clear, crisp, engaging and dynamic. When I switch to LPCM on the PS3, leave the SC-27 in Auto Surround, and set a Bluray to TrueHD, then the sound is kinda muffled meaning not as crisp or clear. In fact it sounds dull. I'm thinking this is the difference between the SC-27 DAC and the PS3 DAC, despite the TrueHD. Thoughts?

cnh

Correct me if I am wrong..but isn't LPCM still a digital format and the final analog out would be handled by the Pioneer's Wolfsons...no?

cnh

mantis

cnh wrote: »

Correct me if I am wrong..but isn't LPCM still a digital format and the final analog out would be handled by the Pioneer's Wolfsons...no?

cnh

You are correct. Where the Processing happens makes no audio difference. Sorry to say but you can write to Dolby them selves and they will tell you the same exact thing. There is no audio difference.

SolidSqual

mantis wrote: »

You are correct. Where the Processing happens makes no audio difference. Sorry to say but you can write to Dolby them selves and they will tell you the same exact thing. There is no audio difference.

I'm not following you. I must be hooking up something wrong then because the difference is very big.

If I understand you correctly, the PS3 in LPCM mode is reading, then doing the "math", then sending a digital signal for the SC-27 to make analog. When I do this, my SC-27 shows it is receiving a "PCM" signal. If I set the PS3 to bitstream, then PS3 is only reading and sending raw data that the SC-27 decodes. So the SC-27 DAC is always doing the work?

leroyjr1

SolidSqual wrote: »

I'm not following you. I must be hooking up something wrong then because the difference is very big.

If I understand you correctly, the PS3 in LPCM mode is reading, then doing the "math", then sending a digital signal for the SC-27 to make analog. When I do this, my SC-27 shows it is receiving a "PCM" signal. If I set the PS3 to bitstream, then PS3 is only reading and sending raw data that the SC-27 decodes. So the SC-27 DAC is always doing the work?

The older ps3's dont bitstream hd formats, they do the decoding

cheddar

SolidSqual wrote: »

I'm not following you. I must be hooking up something wrong then because the difference is very big.

If I understand you correctly, the PS3 in LPCM mode is reading, then doing the "math", then sending a digital signal for the SC-27 to make analog. When I do this, my SC-27 shows it is receiving a "PCM" signal. If I set the PS3 to bitstream, then PS3 is only reading and sending raw data that the SC-27 decodes. So the SC-27 DAC is always doing the work?

No doubt about it, if you hear this much difference, then you definitely have something hooked up wrong. Especially since the ps3 (non-slim) can't bitstream TrueHD, only vanilla DD and DTS over optical or hdmi. So you are in effect saying that old school Dolby or DTS bitstreamed sounds better than TrueHD decoded by the ps3 and sent out as PCM over hdmi. Not really possible if you have everything hooked up and dialed in properly.

And the ps3 has only stereo analog connections not multichannel ones, so I'm not sure what you are referring to when you think that you are using the ps3's DACs. DACs are digital to analog conversion chips necessary because at some point any digital audio signal has to be converted to analog because speakers are pure analog. But this has nothing to do with TrueHD decoding. It usually occurs in the AVR right after all the other digital processing is applied. But some people have high end players with nice DACs that convert the signal in the player and send it out over analog outs to the AVR. The AVR can then pass this signal directly to the speakers or must convert it back into digital to apply further processing, then another analog conversion and out to the speakers. But this is independent and seperate from the process of TrueHD and DTS-HD MA decoding.

cheddar

Think of PCM as the digital 'language' that any player or AVR 'speaks'. In a world without space limitations on a disk, you could just use PCM all the way from the disk to the final conversion to analog in the AVR and out to the speakers. No one would have ever heard of TrueHD or DTS-HD MA, and everything would still work just fine. And in fact, many blu-rays have an uncompressed LPCM track and so people can hear 'lossless' just fine without TrueHD or DTS-HD MA ever entering the picture (Disney's Pirates movies being examples).

But of course, both DVD and Blu-ray have space limitations, so enter Dolby and DTS to make some money off it. TrueHD and DTS-HD MA are nothing more than digital ways to squeeze an uncompressed LPCM track into a smaller file. Then unzip it later 'losslessly' so you get the original file back when you need to play it. They don't do anything to the original sound quality of the track, nor should they, since they are 'lossless'. You just get the original large file back.

Where this decoding takes place, either in the player or the AVR makes no difference, because you are getting the same file back either way, in time for the AVR to do whatever digital processing to it and convert it to analog and out to the speakers. As you've heard with your system, however, just because you can decode it in either place, doesn't mean the set-up is always straightforward for maximizing the audio as you have to be sure you are still getting the proper signal into the AVR and then have the AVR properly process the signal once it receives it.

cheddar

It can be argued that bitstreaming the signal is the least trouble free set-up wise. As the AVR gets the bitstream, knows that it's either TrueHD or DTS-HD MA, and processes the signal properly, then sends it off to the speakers.

If the AVR receives PCM over hdmi, it doesn't really know what the original source of the signal was. It could have been SACD converted to PCM for all it knows. So AVRs don't always handle the PCM signal consistently. For things like home theater tracks, for example, there is a required 10db boost required to the LFE track after Dolby or DTS is 'uncompressed' (normally referred to as decoding). Not all AVRs will apply this to an incoming PCM signal and the LFE trim may have to be manually changed in the AVR's 'set-up' to add this 10db boost or the track will sound very bass thin. So although the set-up may be more difficult with player decoded TrueHD or DTS-HD MA, it can still sound stellar when done properly.

cheddar

To sum up:

3 ways to get 'lossless'.

1. Bitstream from bitstream capable player to bitstream capable AVR (requires hdmi 1.3).
2. Have player decode and send PCM to AVR (requires at least hdmi 1.1).
3. Have player decode to PCM, convert PCM to analog and send to AVR (requires multichannel analog connections at both the player and AVR).

All can sound stellar. If you are hearing an 'obvious' stand-out difference between them, check your connections and set-up.

SolidSqual

Hey Cheddar,

Thanks for the information, it really helps to get my mind right. I'm a 2 channel guy at heart, so this HT stuff is kinda foreign to me. At any rate, I must be applying the wrong processing in the AVR because the cabling is damn simple. Everything is connected via HDMI 1.3. I'll mess with it tonight and see if I can find the right sound. Shoot, I may just get a Blu-Ray player that bitstreams just so I have piece of mind when I see my AVR say TrueHD on the front panel.

Mike

Thanks,

Mike

SolidSqual

Ok, something must have been jacked somewhere in the AVR, but I just did a factory reset of the whole system. Now, the TrueHD is coming through loud and clear. It is distinctly better than the bistream previously heard. Thanks for your help guys. I am a happy camper again.

cheddar

Welcome to the lossless world. No need to rush out and get another player. The ps3 does a great job as a blu-ray player with on-board decoding. Sit with it awhile and enjoy. Then, if you still feel you're missing something, you'll better know what you want to replace it with.

cheddar

Also, even if you go to bitstreaming, you'll need to dial in the PCM properly anyways to play the uncompressed LPCM tracks that some blu-rays have.

digitalvideo

Have any of you been able to hear any differences between a bluray movie in LPCM or Dolby? I watched Reign Of Fire on bluray and it has a LPCM track and Dolby 5.1 track, I can't tell the difference.

mantis

Ok great report from Cheddar. Nice man.

SolidSqual ,
If you can get your system all setup correctly , there will be no difference if you decode it in the receiver or in the player. With that being said if you want the receiver to tell you what you are hearing , get rid of the Ps3 and get a stand alone Blu ray player. Depending on your needs I can suggest what Stand alone player is right for you.

Here is the problem. DVD passed the bitstream signal to the receiver over optical or Digital coax. Everyone is use to seeing DD or DTS on their receivers and know exactly what they are getting. With the player decoding the signal you get LPCM or just PCM on the receivers screen. So unless you remember what you picked in the Blu rays menu or what the disc is recorded in , you don't know what you are getting. I fully understand as I like the preamp or receiver to Process the signal like it is supposed to. The Industry Eff'd it with the player doing the decoding. This is not necessary unless you are going to send the HD audio over analog 6 or 8 channel out to a NON HDMI pre or receiver or if your pre or receiver does not have built in decoding which is another Eff up of the industry. Right from the beginning this should have been a standard then all of us could have our displays on our pre receivers telling all of us what the hell we are listening to and all this madness would not exist.

I have been pissed off at the industy since all this started. HDMI sucks **** as it keeps changing the game. Now 1.4 is coming out and 3d so we al are suppose to run out and buy it to get 3d in the home. New tv's again new preamps receivers and a new 3d Blu ray player. I'm a little sick of it. leave well enough alone , allow the damn world to catch up to HDTV and Blu ray the way it is now , get rid of internal decoding in all players , make everyone who has a old and busted preamp or receiver upgrade to a HDMI 1.3a model and be done with it.

On another side note you or anyone else does not need to do all this research in order to sit down and enjoy a movie. It's sad to say you have or feel you have to spend all this time running around figuring out 'IF" you are doing it right. That's what HDMI and our idiot Engineers have done to all of us.

Sometimes I just wanna scream or slap people.

cheddar

With the ps3, it's easy to tell what you're playing. Just press 'select' on the controller while watching any media file including blu-rays and you will get an overlay screen with a wealth of geeked out statistics including the audio format, dead center, top of the screen. No need to guess what's being sent out as PCM.

If you need to change formats on the fly, just press the square button while playing a blu-ray and you'll get the in-movie pop-up screen that allows you to alter the movie set-up while watching the movie.

cnh

Good info cheddar...that's usually what I've done just to make sure I had the right track going to my AVR.

Dan....I hear it. I own a few AVRs....some have NO HDMI, one has a 1.1 version, one a 1.2 and one a 1.3a! My TV is only HDMI 1.1. And the numbers just keep coming?

I only have one HDTV..all my other sets are SDTV!

cnh