Too much detail?

jaxwired

Here's one to ponder. At the audio show I just attended, when listening to some of the high end horn based speakers on the end of very expensive 2 channel gear I found that the problem was too much detail. What I mean is that the music was presented with an almost freakish spotlight on the sound. I'm not really talking about shrillness or brightness, I'm just talking about explicit amplified detail. The thing is, that while it was an amazing demonstration of what can be acheived with a budgetless system, it did not resemble what music sounds like. And I'm not talking about what it sounds like in a normal HiFi. It didn't sound like any music I've ever heard live either. Live music does not sound like that. And I have experience with both symphony and pop/rock/jazz in a live setting. I think it really calls into question what people are trying to actually achieve with these mega-buck systems. I'm doubtful that the ultimate goal is music appreciation.

TNRabbit

It sounds like they didn't know HOW to set up their system~

jaxwired

Could be. Looked pretty impressive though. If I ever buy that album of whippoorwills mating in a petrified tree stump I could test it on my system to see...

jm1

I would think that sonic characteristics would differ depending on how the source was recorded. A symphonic orchestra would sound different if it was recorded close miked on the stage as opposed to sitting mid hall at a live performance. Multi-track material recorded in a studio close miked would sound different than a live performance in an arena/bar etc.

Maybe the system was able to convey all the detail captured within the recording. If you listen to an instrument at close range, would you hear this level of detail or was the system adding extra information? I would suspect it would be the former.

Ern Dog

In my ever evolving system, there was a time when my rig sounded Uber detailed. And there was some WOW factor involved because so much detail was being revealed that I hadn't heard before. At first it was cool, but that didn't last long because it totally lacked musicality and listening wasn't as enjoyable.

markmarc

I've had the opportunity to experience some of the very best in audio with the best possible positioning and room treatments. I can tell you that sometimes the most revealing speakers can become too much during long listening sessions. It isn't because of any flaw, but that they can be too intense, and listener fatigue sets in. There is real value in being able to listenability.

Zitro

Law of diminishing returns will stop me from ever buying a real high-dollar rig.

Cpyder

I too have noticed this with super nice equipment. I always attributed it to the fact that the system is way nicer than mine and this must be how music sounds through crazy expensive setups. But, I've never known for sure. And, as for it being overpowering or causing listener fatigue: I think it may be because we are not used to it. Similar to how some people found vinyl records' highs bright or overbearing when record labels started to produce more vinyl records instead of shellac records. A similar phenomenon was observed with the introduction of compact discs. People weren't used to the way the highs sounded compared to vinyl and since they were so used to the sound of vinyl, some tended to dislike the sound of digital on CDs. But, I don't think it's because CDs highs are too bright or too detailed. I think it's just a different sound that we are not used to. When else do you hear highs reproduced by $100,000 equipment? Almost never, I would guess.

cnh

This is a good discussion and we (I) have a thread relating to this somewhere...where I asked why most speakers do not sound like music in a concert hall?

What you're hearing is NOT necessarily a system that is not set up right...but something very real. That is speakers cannot, do not 'ever' reproduce 'exactly' what we would hear live...some do better than others.

And some very high end speakers do have 'too' much detail...because sound is experienced in real spaces...with sound treatments and differing acoustical properties. Speaker manufacturers sometimes go overboard in trying to produce the greatest amount of resolution....but that, often sounds unrealistic--or 'artificial'. Just because a speaker has great tweets and mids, crossovers, etc...and you're using great cables and primo pres and amps.....don't think you've solved those problems.

In fact, sometimes a speaker that has 'less' resolution may actually sound 'better'? This hobby is very subjective...and it's not simply about 'engineering' a speaker but also 'listening' to it in different environments with different material and different equipment.

Don't like what you hear....who cares if it's 50k a pair....go listen so some other speakers, etc. Price is 'only' one factor among 'many'!

cnh

Cpyder

cnh wrote: »

In fact, sometimes a speaker that has 'less' resolution may actually sound 'better'? This hobby is very subjective...and it's not simply about 'engineering' a speaker but also 'listening' to it in different environments with different material and different equipment.

Speaking of enjoying less resolution over more resolution, I sometimes prefer my $20 headphones, which I use while working out/running, to my LSi9s when it comes to music with heavily distorted guitars. I think it's because the 9s are trying to "accurately" reproduce the distorted guitar too much when it's distortion to begin with. The cheapo headphones don't even try to accurately reproduce the sound and I think this is why I like it better. I don't think you are supposed to critically listen to heavily distorted guitars. The distortion is not meant to be reproduced accurately and when you do, it just sounds off.

Amherst

cnh wrote: »

This is a good discussion and we (I) have a thread relating to this somewhere...where I asked why most speakers do not sound like music in a concert hall?

What you're hearing is NOT necessarily a system that is not set up right...but something very real. That is speakers cannot, do not 'ever' reproduce 'exactly' what we would hear live...some do better than others.

And some very high end speakers do have 'too' much detail...because sound is experienced in real spaces...with sound treatments and differing acoustical properties. Speaker manufacturers sometimes go overboard in trying to produce the greatest amount of resolution....but that, often sounds unrealistic--or 'artificial'. Just because a speaker has great tweets and mids, crossovers, etc...and you're using great cables and primo pres and amps.....don't think you've solved those problems.

In fact, sometimes a speaker that has 'less' resolution may actually sound 'better'? This hobby is very subjective...and it's not simply about 'engineering' a speaker but also 'listening' to it in different environments with different material and different equipment.

Don't like what you hear....who cares if it's 50k a pair....go listen so some other speakers, etc. Price is 'only' one factor among 'many'!

cnh

I am in the CNH camp on this one!
Too much detail just seems "unrealistic", and to me, does not remotely mimic live performances. Even with studio recordings some high end set-up's have a quality I don't think was really intended by most artists.

jaxwired

Ern Dog wrote: »

In my ever evolving system, there was a time when my rig sounded Uber detailed. And there was some WOW factor involved because so much detail was being revealed that I hadn't heard before. At first it was cool, but that didn't last long because it totally lacked musicality and listening wasn't as enjoyable.

Right on. This is my opinion as well. It doesn't make music more enjoyable and it definately lacks so called "musicality". It is cool and it is very "wow", but I don't think it makes for great music.

HB27

You also have to consider the high dollar systems aren't usually set up in a proper environment for sound reproduction.
There are certain types of music I prefer listening to and I set my systems and room up to reproduce that type of listening.
I've spent some major bucks on some systems and then changed because my preferences changed.

madmax

Too much of anything gets annoying.
madmax

steveinaz

Consider how we listen to "real" music, live. Be it unamplified or amplified. Many speakers present way more detail than is typically heard at an actual event. When you consider how far away you are seated from the performance, residual noise, interference from physical objects, etc. Then ask yourself, what do I base my reference for what music should sound like?---see the above. We only know what we are familiar with, and we sometimes forget it is no where near as sterile as some equipment portrays it.

I think this is why most people end up shifting their focus to musical equipment, rather than strict "tell-it-like-it-is" stuff---which, ironically, really isn't. I think this is what tube owners are accomplishing--"Lie to me, but do it sweetly..." there isn't anything wrong with that idea, IMO. I'm headed that direction myself. The irony is that IMO, equipment that has some tonal flavor is probably better at capturing the emotion of music--hence more comparable to a live event.

organ

Was that your first time listening to horns?
Their presentation is very different than other designs. Front row type sound and usually very forward with details being thrown at you. Usually, the best way to tame a horn system is by using a SET amp. Horns just love them.

Now, this was just a demo. There is a chance you find the sound weird because it is too different from what you're accustomed to. I'm sure it would be a different story if you had the chance to take them home and live with them for a while until your ears gets used to the sound.

madmax

Another possibility to add is that possibly something else was missing which led you to focus on the detail. More than once I have tried to solve an observed symptom in my system only to find the root problem was something I hadn't even thought about.
madmax

AudioGenics

Excess may do you harm.

SCompRacer

I think this is what tube owners are accomplishing--"Lie to me, but do it sweetly..."

Steve, maybe with tube gear that fattens up the sound with some second order distortion, been there and done that. But not all tube gear falls into that category. That 99% sure pre amp you mentioned getting in an earlier thread is high current and very low distortion. Many folks buy his gear thinking tube and don't like the accuracy and detail it provides.

heiney9

SCompRacer wrote: »

Steve, maybe with tube gear that fattens up the sound with some second order distortion, been there and done that. But not all tube gear falls into that category. That 99% sure pre amp you mentioned getting in an earlier thread is high current and very low distortion. Many folks buy his gear thinking tube and don't like the accuracy and detail it provides.

I have to agree Rich, the 2nd order harmonic is what tubes give. Many single ended class A amps also give this. But tubes really don't lie at all. I've found my tube gear (a pre-amp and two integrateds) to be much more revealing than anything SS with the exception of the Adcom pre-amp. It's close to tubes are far as detail but just doesn't have that organic, deep soundstage as tubes. The SS is definitely drier in it's presentation but still detailed.

Certain tubes in the tube pre-amp really, really shine like my Telefunken ECC801S. Superb tubes with detail in spades.

H9

Zitro

heiney9 wrote: »

I have to agree Rich, the 2nd order harmonic is what tubes give. Many single ended class A amps also give this. But tubes really don't lie at all. I've found my tube gear (a pre-amp and two integrateds) to be much more revealing than anything SS with the exception of the Adcom pre-amp. It's close to tubes are far as detail but just doesn't have that organic, deep soundstage as tubes. The SS is definitely drier in it's presentation but still detailed.

Certain tubes in the tube pre-amp really, really shine like my Telefunken ECC801S. Superb tubes with detail in spades.

H9

I heard tubes for the first time today; a McIntosh pre and power amp. Couldn't agree more with your synopsis of tubes, at least based off of that one system which I know isn't enough.

I haven't heard a speaker I thought to be "too revealing" but I have heard many that sound too analytical, if that makes sense. Maybe I'm tone deaf, but some of my favorite sounding speakers have been mid-price speakers, usually over the high-priced $15k+ pairs. B&W 683's, KEF iQ90's, Audio Physic Virgo's and Quad 22L's come to mind.

sucks2beme

Zitro wrote: »

I heard tubes for the first time today; a McIntosh pre and power amp. Couldn't agree more with your synopsis of tubes, at least based off of that one system which I know isn't enough.

I haven't heard a speaker I thought to be "too revealing" but I have heard many that sound too analytical, if that makes sense. Maybe I'm tone deaf, but some of my favorite sounding speakers have been mid-price speakers, usually over the high-priced $15k+ pairs. B&W 683's, KEF iQ90's, Audio Physic Virgo's and Quad 22L's come to mind.

There was a pair of demo rooms at a store. Both had upper midrange B&w's.
One was using a Classe SS, the other McIntosh tubes. Guess which one
sounded better? The Classe' didn't sound bad, but the Mac left it in the dirt.

jaxwired

Hmmm. Left it in the dirt? Really?

Tube amps have an organic sound that is appealing, but I'm happy with SS equipment. It sounds excellent in my system. Also, most tube amps don't have the grunt to push my speakers.

Zitro

jaxwired wrote: »

Hmmm. Left it in the dirt? Really?

Tube amps have an organic sound that is appealing, but I'm happy with SS equipment. It sounds excellent in my system. Also, most tube amps don't have the grunt to push my speakers.

The McIntosh tube amp I heard today was excellent. I will get into tubes later when spending money is actually an option. For now, SS works for me. Maybe I can have one rig for each

sucks2beme

jaxwired wrote: »

Hmmm. Left it in the dirt? Really?

Tube amps have an organic sound that is appealing, but I'm happy with SS equipment. It sounds excellent in my system. Also, most tube amps don't have the grunt to push my speakers.

The Mac 275 in the B&W setup really had that synergy thing going. Classe would be good with many speakers, but with this pair, it wasn't cutting it.

My ARC doesn't have that classic tube sound at all.
I wouldn't call it organic. But it doesn't have some of the harsh edges
that I have found in most sand amps..
Of course, sometimes raw power is a good thing. If I could find a decent
sand amp that sounded as good with 100+ wpc, I'd go for it. But the ARC
seems to always come out on top. Now, if it was just a 100 instead of
50 wpc....................................................

cnh

That is interesting, because I have not liked most B&W speakers I've heard..but then again, they've never been powered by a good tube amp....perhaps that is part of the problem I have with them. I've always seen them as much adieu about nothing.

Perhaps they 'deserve' another listen or two or three?

In my opinion, tubes smooth things out. They don't have that 'harsh edgy detail that most SS amps do. But I do feel that some of the most 'revealing' amps I've heard are SS amps--I don't think of tubes are 'super-over-detailed'. Perhaps we're just crossing semantic fields here. And detail to me is not what detail to some of you means. Because I do think you can have too much and that is unrealistic.

"Analytic" is a good word that is close to what I am thinking. Too clinical, too artificial, too much--distracting--you can hear everything....but that is definitely NOT what you hear 'live'!

cnh

phipiper10

This discussion has me thinking about components and speakers and in my mind I'm thinking speakers should be the most "neutral" of all the components- they should let whatever has come from upstream out with the least amount of color. I'm not sure where I got this notion, maybe it's because you don't turn it on. I realize speakers can have flavor too and in the end it may all be part of the synergy but think I'm searching for the absolute most revealing speakers.

If you want to "color" the sound, let the amp or the pre or cables do that - I'd want speakers to get out the the way. Just my thoughts and YMMV.

organ

I agree about what you guys mentioned with tubes. The only tube equipment I have (or have had) that mellow out the sound is my Dynaco ST-70 and ASL pre amp. All my other tube gear are very revealing.
I'm using SS amplification right now but still miss the sound I had with a full tube set up and horns or single driver speakers. I plan to get back into high eff. speakers and tube amps. Once a tube head, always a tube head:).

cfrizz

Nice writeup Cpyder. I tend to agree with you. People don't really like change & so they cling to what they know.

Also as we get older & our bodies change, we hear things differently & have to make changes accordingly.

As of right now I still can't stand metal tweeters, or horns. And tubes mellow things out too much. Until my ears tell me it's time for a change, I'm sticking to what pleases them.

Hawkeye

[QUOTE=jaxwired;1296571 I think it really calls into question what people are trying to actually achieve with these mega-buck systems. I'm doubtful that the ultimate goal is music appreciation.[/QUOTE]

I tend to disagree. Folks that put these type of systems together appreciate music like the rest of us. They put it together in a way that is pleasing to their own ears. We all see differently, take into account the many different prescriptions for glasses. The correction brings us close to 20/20 but it is not perfect.

Mega-buck systems enable a person to shape the sound to fit an individual preference. Be it tubes, SS, box speakers or an ESL, all the choices give us the choice to achieve the above. None of them are right or wrong except for the person buying it. It may not sound like live music to me, but it may to the owner and that is the important part.

Gordon

tonyb

Whatever floats your boat I guess. Horns to me anyway, are crisp,clear, but hard on the ears. You almost allways have to intergrate a sub which doesn't sound right with the clarity of horns. Definately more tricky to get right. Personally,I think some try to create products that eliminate distortion to a level that the music sounds sterile,no weight to the notes. Then, we try to re-introduce that distortion by way of the good old record player and/or tube gear. Not saying Horns can't be done right, just alot more attention to set-up and associated gear is needed.

People buy speakers for alot of reasons, however, sound quality maybe one of many and not necessarily at the top of the list. Personally, for me it's all about SQ, and being able to get a good SQ with any type of music I throw at it. Sometimes I can't digest the fact that some still make speakers that are only good for certain types of music. How often do you run into someone who only plays classical ? Oh well, Like I said,to each his own.