Looking for an AVR for an RTi setup

dvran

+1 on the Onkyo 707.

I think the 707 has the "brains" you need for your setup, plus has pre-outs. I recommend getting a cheap receiver (707) with pre-outs and get a 3-channel pre-amp to drive the fronts. Also, Denon has the model 1910 which has the features you're looking for an also pre-outs.

You'll need to spend some serious dough to get a receiver that will fill in the job of a pre-amp.

britay

cnh wrote: »

As pointed out above, the fair comparison between a Pioneer Elite and an Onkyo would involve the 1007 or even higher series.

The SC-25 is FAR more powerful than an Onkyo 600 series...no contest.

The ICE amps will also give you more power, cleaner sound and better dynamic levels than the cheaper VSX-23...you'd need to turn up the sound a bit to hear that. But you will hear it under the right conditions!

The ICE amps are very very 'clean', lots of detail and have an 'almost' inexhaustible reserve of power! The 23 will clip a lot earlier...though it is a FINE AVR for the price.

cnh

I don't listen to music at ear-bleeding levels, and I only listen to movies as loudly as I do because at lower levels I don't hear the more subtle sounds in the movie (the best way I can describe it is that the sound seems to be better balanced at higher volume). I don't know if this means much to anyone that doesn't have a setup similar to mine, but on my HT-RC160 I listen to movies between 45 and 52 usually - I think the volume range is 0-79. When you say that I'll need to turn the sound up a bit, are we talking really loud? My main reason for wanting more power was for better sound in the mid- to low-range frequencies that my RTi8s will reproduce, not so much for more volume. My current receiver gets loud enough, I'd just like for it to sound better at the volumes I listen at. From what I've read, power isn't all about volume (and if I understood correctly, that is part of what you were saying above).

I'm not trying to be a pain here, and I know you know a lot more about this than I do. I'm just trying to get an idea whether the SC-25 will be worth the extra money based on what I'm looking for out of an upgrade. I do think that the SC-25 will be "enough" receiver for me for a long time and will likely eliminate the need for an external amp (in my case). At this point I'm mostly trying to decide whether the VSX-23 might do the same for less. I'm not looking to get out of spending more, I just want to feel comfortable that I'm getting enough more receiver to justify the cost difference.

I don't think I'm supposed to discuss prices here (or maybe that was a different forum?), but part of the issue here is that if I purchase the VSX-23 I will probably get it online, and if I get the SC-25 I will probably get it locally because it's on sale and even though I can get it cheaper online, the price difference is such that I'd prefer to do business with the B&M. But the 25 will be 2.5x the price of the 23 in this scenario.

One other thing, if you don't mind. Will my RTi8s limit the amount of sound difference I might hear between the two? I'm sure you read this a lot, but I don't intend to upgrade my speakers any time soon. I've been very happy with them, and if music reproduction is something less than desired even after upgrading the receiver, I can live with that, because right now it's pretty good. Besides, it may be a while before I could convince my wife that we need something better.

I do appreciate all the responses I've gotten, and I hope I'm not exhausting anyone's patience!

cnh

To be clear....I'll give an example. I have an Onkyo 605 and an Onkyo 805 among other things. When I compare the 90 watt 605 with the 805 at similar volume levels...the 805 puts out more detail, tighter bass, better imaging and sound stage than its little brother. I don't need to blast the 805 to hear that difference.

When I add a 200 watt power amp to the Onkyo 805 and bypass its internal amps (130 watts/channel) everything I just said about the 605 and the 805 is even better with the power amp in charge at the same volume.

I do believe you should hear a difference between the two Pioneers at similar volumes..I've demoed both models.

However, your question is still relevant. Is the VSX23 good enough?

YES! In its price range it's one of the best and it has a lot of trickle down technology from its more expensive and bigger brothers....like Wolfsen DACs and anti-jitter digital tech, etc.

You'd be fine with that unit if you don't want to break the bank. And since it does have pre-outs..you could always buy a cheap power amp and increase the power to your speakers for a few hundred dollars on the used market.

cnh

cstmar01

I personally would say go with the SC-25. If you are looking for a more detailed sound it will do it. I have the A9's hooked up and it does a GREAT job with them. It helps bring out the bass and is very detailed. I personally would save and get the SC-25 for the fact that its very hard to beat at its price. I heard the Onkyo at a dealer powering Def Techs and it was very good as well. However did not do a A/B comparision of them in my set up. The 23 is a good AVR however I think it does lack a bit in the amp section in terms of detail from what I've heard.

britay

cnh wrote: »

To be clear....I'll give an example. I have an Onkyo 605 and an Onkyo 805 among other things. When I compare the 90 watt 605 with the 805 at similar volume levels...the 805 puts out more detail, tighter bass, better imaging and sound stage than its little brother. I don't need to blast the 805 to hear that difference.

cnh, THANKS! That's exactly the type of improvement I'm hoping for!

This may be a dumb question, but I'm going to ask it anyway. Will an AVR like the SC-25 "out-class" my speakers? Or should that not even be a consideration?

britay

cstmar01 wrote: »

I personally would say go with the SC-25. If you are looking for a more detailed sound it will do it. I have the A9's hooked up and it does a GREAT job with them. It helps bring out the bass and is very detailed. I personally would save and get the SC-25 for the fact that its very hard to beat at its price. I heard the Onkyo at a dealer powering Def Techs and it was very good as well. However did not do a A/B comparision of them in my set up. The 23 is a good AVR however I think it does lack a bit in the amp section in terms of detail from what I've heard.

Another vote for the SC-25. I'm starting to get the idea.

cnh

I wouldn't worry about that. Rti-A5s are a solid HT speaker that can handle ALL the power the SC-25s have to offer. It can only make them sound better like cstmar01 says above. You're good!


cnh

britay

hearingimpaired:

Thanks for the recommendation. I'll have to do some research on that model. I hadn't considered NAD up to this point.

dvran:

I'm still considering the 707, 807, and even 1007. But I'm leaning towards Pioneer because I really like some of the features of the Advanced MCACC funtions.

Are you sure that the Denon 1910 has pre-outs? I looked at a picture of the back and didn't see any. I listened to (and liked) the Denon 2310 and the 3310 at the same time that I listened to the Pioneers, but the 2310 did not have pre-outs and I was told that none of the lower Denon models did either.

cnh

You're right.

Only the Denon AVR 3310 and above have pre-outs. I also second hearingimpaired's recommendation of NADs...one thing NAD delivers is a lot of headroom. So tons of reserve power! I'd listen to everything and decide what 'you' like best.

Happy listening!

cnh

britay

cnh wrote: »

I wouldn't worry about that. Rti-A5s are a solid HT speaker that can handle ALL the power the SC-25s have to offer. It can only make them sound better like cstmar01 says above. You're good!


cnh

Thanks again, cnh. I really appreciate your input.

britay

One last question, and then it's time for me to sit back and decide what I want to do. How much weight should I give the fact that the SC-25 has the network connection? I have an AppleTV for streaming music from iTunes, but would I get better quality sound by streaming directly to the receiver and letting it decode the music? Also, I think that it would be nice to be able to update the AVR's firmware myself. But in real-world usage, is this really a big consideration? What would I have to do to have the VSX-23's firmware updated? Take it to a service center? Will I get charged for that? Do they even provide firmware updates for the 23?

I guess that was more than one question, but it's just one topic.

hearingimpared

cnh wrote: »

You're right.

Only the Denon AVR 3310 and above have pre-outs. I also second hearingimpaired's recommendation of NADs...one thing NAD delivers is a lot of headroom. So tons of reserve power! I'd listen to everything and decide what 'you' like best.

Happy listening!

cnh

I think the reason why more people here don't own NAD AVRs is because of the price tag. However, they are well worth it.

britay

hearingimpared wrote: »

I think the reason why more people here don't own NAD AVRs is because of the price tag. However, they are well worth it.

I was just looking at that AVR. Looks like a really nice one. Now I have one more to add to my list of "finalists", although I would have to get a used one (or refurbished).

Demiurge

britay wrote: »

another vote for the sc-25. I'm starting to get the idea. :d

Get the SC-25

hearingimpared

britay wrote: »

I was just looking at that AVR. Looks like a really nice one. Now I have one more to add to my list of "finalists", although I would have to get a used one (or refurbished).

That's what I was suggesting. A refurb would be even better if a used one is out of warranty. If you do plan on buying a used one make sure the seller has the original receipt and it is from an authorized NAD dealer. NAD will honor the warranty in that case.

BTW I had purchased a T773 in the past that had factory defects in it. It was long out of warranty but NAD replaced it FOR FREE with the T765 with free shipping, that bad boy is beast heavy. The T773 was their flagship model at the time (before the Master Series) and the T765 had more features and more power than the T773.

Just a thumbs up for NAD customer service and their policies.

britay

hearingimpared wrote: »

That's what I was suggesting. A refurb would be even better if a used one is out of warranty. If you do plan on buying a used one make sure the seller has the original receipt and it is from an authorized NAD dealer. NAD will honor the warranty in that case.

BTW I had purchased a T773 in the past that had factory defects in it. It was long out of warranty but NAD replaced it FOR FREE with the T765 with free shipping, that bad boy is beast heavy. The T773 was their flagship model at the time (before the Master Series) and the T765 had more features and more power than the T773.

Just a thumbs up for NAD customer service and their policies.

Good to hear about the customer service. I thought I had found a good deal on a refurbished T765, but it turned out to be the first version that did not decode DTS-HD MA or Dolby TrueHD and was not MDC (and therefore not upgradeable).

I'm still looking because the MDC version would be sweet!

hearingimpared

britay wrote: »

Good to hear about the customer service. I thought I had found a good deal on a refurbished T765, but it turned out to be the first version that did not decode DTS-HD MA or Dolby TrueHD and was not MDC (and therefore not upgradeable).

I'm still looking because the MDC version would be sweet!

The search continues . . . but is well worth the wait.

Demiurge

If you're going HT/Games, the Pioneer Elite line is really the best bang for the buck. I listened to a lot of receivers before I finally made my decision on a new AVR, which was only a few weeks ago now.

Short of spending several thousand dollars, the Pioneer Elite line can't be beat and will rival many of the AVRs you'd spend much more for. They aren't the best for music (not bad at all, either), but plenty enough for me through the LSi line.

cstmar01

Also I'm not sure where you are located but check out even best buys Magnolia areas. Often they will have the Onkyo (or at least I thought they did) and the Pio recievers set up so you can listen to them and play with them a bit to get a feel. Normally also there will be the Denon. The last Magnolia at least had them set up so you could listen to them and play around but others I've been to were not like that or at least the guy didn't know if they could be pulled to listen to.

Also I've heard the NAD is pretty good as well, if I think its the model I read about, lots of headroom but they tend to be more on the expensive side.

britay

Demiurge wrote: »

Get the SC-25

Yet another vote for the SC-25. Do all you guys have the 25 or do you just like spending my money?

britay

cstmar01 wrote: »

Also I'm not sure where you are located but check out even best buys Magnolia areas. Often they will have the Onkyo (or at least I thought they did) and the Pio recievers set up so you can listen to them and play with them a bit to get a feel. Normally also there will be the Denon. The last Magnolia at least had them set up so you could listen to them and play around but others I've been to were not like that or at least the guy didn't know if they could be pulled to listen to.

Also I've heard the NAD is pretty good as well, if I think its the model I read about, lots of headroom but they tend to be more on the expensive side.

That's where I went last weekend to listen to the Pioneers and Denons. I didn't listen to the Onkyo except to compare the Pioneers to the model of Onkyo I have - just for comparison. And the difference was striking, although there may have been other factors that weren't obvious to me (such as interconnects, how they blend with the speakers we were listening to, etc.).

drselect

britay I had a chance recently to listen to a Pioneer SC-25, Pioneer SC-27, Pioneer VSX-23TXH and an Onkyo TX-NR3007 at a Magnolia. IMHO the SC-25 and SC-27 stood out. I don't have the RTIs but did listen to different pairing of the AVRs with different speakers and still liked the sound of the SCs on all the speakers I listened to.
Shepard suggested (thanks by the way) that I check out http://www.valueelectronics.com/ and talk to Robert. I never got a chance to talk to Robert (didn't have a lot of technical questions just price) instead talked to Wendy who talked me into a SC-27 and a BDP and based on my experience so far I would also recommend giving them a call if you are looking at getting an Pio.

britay

drselect wrote: »

britay I had a chance recently to listen to a Pioneer SC-25, Pioneer SC-27, Pioneer VSX-23TXH and an Onkyo TX-NR3007 at a Magnolia. IMHO the SC-25 and SC-27 stood out. I don't have the RTIs but did listen to different pairing of the AVRs with different speakers and still liked the sound of the SCs on all the speakers I listened to.
Shepard suggested (thanks by the way) that I check out http://www.valueelectronics.com/ and talk to Robert. I never got a chance to talk to Robert (didn't have a lot of technical questions just price) instead talked to Wendy who talked me into a SC-27 and a BDP and based on my experience so far I would also recommend giving them a call if you are looking at getting an Pio.

I see you're in AR and their website says "Elite receiver sales limited to a 250 mile radius of our store". I take it that wasn't a problem? I'm definitely not within 250 miles of NY.

Sherardp

drselect wrote: »

britay I had a chance recently to listen to a Pioneer SC-25, Pioneer SC-27, Pioneer VSX-23TXH and an Onkyo TX-NR3007 at a Magnolia. IMHO the SC-25 and SC-27 stood out. I don't have the RTIs but did listen to different pairing of the AVRs with different speakers and still liked the sound of the SCs on all the speakers I listened to.
Shepard suggested (thanks by the way) that I check out http://www.valueelectronics.com/ and talk to Robert. I never got a chance to talk to Robert (didn't have a lot of technical questions just price) instead talked to Wendy who talked me into a SC-27 and a BDP and based on my experience so far I would also recommend giving them a call if you are looking at getting an Pio.

Passing on the good deals. Excellent. All I can say is +1.

Check out the Pioneer, they are excellent performers.

drselect

I wish I could say it had something to do with my southern charm but since I am not orignally from the south I figured that didn't come into play at all. Give them a call the only thing I would warn you about is you might walk away with more than what you planned on buying.

Gulfstrings

britay - Just a step or two ahead of you in putting a new system together in a room of similar dimensions. Already have made all choices up to adding a power amp, and still giving the current stuff time to 'change my mind.'

I did match an Onkyo SR707 with the RTi A7s, and agree with those above that the combination yields a warmer sound. Certainly warmer than I had previously with my Yamaha/RTi10s.

The 707 provides several HDMI inputs, has two sub outs (which I use) and is ready for the addition of a power amp. I paid $599 from One Call and feel I have a decent 'switchgear' at the ready if I bring in bigger power. At this point ... as things are burning in, still not sure it's necessary.

Dave

AGUERRA

cnh wrote: »

To be clear....I'll give an example. I have an Onkyo 605 and an Onkyo 805 among other things. When I compare the 90 watt 605 with the 805 at similar volume levels...the 805 puts out more detail, tighter bass, better imaging and sound stage than its little brother. I don't need to blast the 805 to hear that difference.

When I add a 200 watt power amp to the Onkyo 805 and bypass its internal amps (130 watts/channel) everything I just said about the 605 and the 805 is even better with the power amp in charge at the same volume.

I do believe you should hear a difference between the two Pioneers at similar volumes..I've demoed both models.

However, your question is still relevant. Is the VSX23 good enough?

YES! In its price range it's one of the best and it has a lot of trickle down technology from its more expensive and bigger brothers....like Wolfsen DACs and anti-jitter digital tech, etc.

You'd be fine with that unit if you don't want to break the bank. And since it does have pre-outs..you could always buy a cheap power amp and increase the power to your speakers for a few hundred dollars on the used market.

cnh

i have both the 605 and 805 and boy does the 805 sing. man this thing is a beast and can be found at a good price used .

britay

Okay. I think I've got it narrowed down to the following:

Pio VSX-23
Pio SC-25
NAD T765

I'll hopefully get to listen to the NAD today, but there is only one dealer within 120 miles of my location. I think that after listening to the NAD I'll have it narrowed down to two - either the two Pioneers or the NAD and the SC-25.

From what I've read, the NAD should produce a better quality of sound than the two Pioneers, but the Pioneers have more "features". That started me thinking about the following scenario, and I wanted to run it by you guys to see if it made any sense. Can I get the VSX-23 now and then get a NAD amp later and get sound similar to what I'd have if I purchased the NAD T765? Or does it not work that way?

cvpartridge

I haven't heard anyone mention any Marantz products for the polk. I have a similar setup, Polk RTI8, CSI5, Monitor 40 (Rear), MFW-15 Sub, and just replaced an Onkyo 605 with a used Marantz SR-8001 for $400. The Marantz is much more balanced than the Onkyo. Not too mention much more powerful. I always thought the polks were way too harsh with the Onkyo. The Marantz tamed them down a bit. Accessories4Less.com has good prices on refurbished Marantz Receivers. You may want to consider these as well.

That being said, no mid-high end receiver will match the output that a good external amp can produce. Dynamics, SPL, and Sound quality are all improved with the addition of an amplifier. My vote, cheaper receiver with a nice used external amplifier.

pietro944

britay wrote: »

Thanks for the suggestion. This is one I'm definitely considering if I decide to spend $1000. With this receiver, the class D amp caught my attention. You've got a setup similar to mine, and the RC160 that I've currently got is similar to the SR607 (I believe), so I suspect your 601 was similar. Can you describe the difference in the sound you get from the SC-25 versus the 601?

hi britay........stumbled on the thread.....thought I might help.

I have the Pio Elite VSX-74TXVI in Retro Billet Silver..........It's beautiful ......7Ch.....140w per,Burr-Brown Dacs.

I used to have the ONK-805(ran hot,didn't like the sound)....the Elite blows it away.I have the RTi8's in the front and the M70's in the rear.

I didn't have much dough,at the time,so I did a ton of internet shopping.....this is what I did:

1.)I got the 74TX for $438(shipped)
2.)I paid $386 for the M70's-Polk refurbs on their Ebay auction site.(shipped).
3.)I paid $250(shipped) for the Zhalou 2.5 DAC

The Dac was the key to my whole system on the cheap.......it's wondrous.....all 2ch thru the Dac.....5.1 thru the Elite.Tons of power,terrific sound.

This was 2 years ago.......I just jumped on the Polk Refurb deal on the RTi8's for $459 and the 505sw for $250(Newegg).So now I have the RTi8's in the front and the M70's in the rear.

I live on SSI......never pay retail and get refurbs,if possible,never had a problem with Polk refurb speakers.

You can build a powerhouse system for about $1000+.........just research and take your time and have a plan...........A decent DAC was the key,for me.............hope this helps........Peter