Looking for an AVR for an RTi setup
britay
Posts: 33
Hello all. I currently have an Onkyo HT-RC160 AVR. It is supposed to be 80W per channel with two channels driven. From what I have been able to surmise based on what I've read, when driving five channels I'm getting significantly less than 80W per channel. That has led me to look for something with more power for my RTi's.
My current setup is:
RTi8 for the fronts
CSi5 for the center
RTi4 for the surrounds
DSW PRO 600 subwoofer
I'm pretty happy with the sound of the RTi8s, but I'm sure they would sound better with more power. I'm looking at possibly another Onkyo (TX-SR707) or the Yamaha RX-V765. I can get the Yamaha for $400 at Newegg, and it has pre-outs so I can add an amp later if desired.
The following items are what I'm looking for in an AVR:
At least 5.1
Support for DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD
Pre-outs for at least five channels
At least 3 HDMI ports
Less than $1000, with a strong preference to $500 or less ;-)
I'd appreciate any suggestions. While I'm looking at the Onkyo and Yamaha, I'm definitely open to other suggestions (especially Denon or Harman Kardon - depending on price). I'm leaning towards the Yamaha because of the price and the pre-outs for all seven channels, but I'm afraid it's 95W per channel is really less than advertised, similar to the Onkyo.
One other thing, since I'm probably not even getting 40W/channel right now, I'm open to getting an AVR with better quality sound even if the rating isn't 95W/channel or more, as long as it has pre-outs so I can upgrade to a better amp later.
My current setup is:
RTi8 for the fronts
CSi5 for the center
RTi4 for the surrounds
DSW PRO 600 subwoofer
I'm pretty happy with the sound of the RTi8s, but I'm sure they would sound better with more power. I'm looking at possibly another Onkyo (TX-SR707) or the Yamaha RX-V765. I can get the Yamaha for $400 at Newegg, and it has pre-outs so I can add an amp later if desired.
The following items are what I'm looking for in an AVR:
At least 5.1
Support for DTS-HD MA and Dolby TrueHD
Pre-outs for at least five channels
At least 3 HDMI ports
Less than $1000, with a strong preference to $500 or less ;-)
I'd appreciate any suggestions. While I'm looking at the Onkyo and Yamaha, I'm definitely open to other suggestions (especially Denon or Harman Kardon - depending on price). I'm leaning towards the Yamaha because of the price and the pre-outs for all seven channels, but I'm afraid it's 95W per channel is really less than advertised, similar to the Onkyo.
One other thing, since I'm probably not even getting 40W/channel right now, I'm open to getting an AVR with better quality sound even if the rating isn't 95W/channel or more, as long as it has pre-outs so I can upgrade to a better amp later.
Post edited by britay on
Comments
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The Onkyos are all going to be subject to delivering less power when driving five channels than they're spec'd for until you get up to the TX-NR1007 and above, which have a better power section. That said, if you're crossing the speakers over properly around 80Hz, anything above about 60w RMS is gonna be gravy in the average sized room. Where you really want to consider additional power is if you're driving your speakers full range, in which case you should get the cheapest AVR that gets you pre-outs and then buy some external amplification.
That said, sometimes it's just time to upgrade! The Yamaha will give you a brighter sound than the Onkyo, which you may not like. The neutrality of Onkyo typically works really well with Polk speakers, especially where highs are concerned. Yamaha is a little more bright and forward sounding, which can possibly translate to harshness at the very high end. The newer Onkyos, however, also have Audyssey MultEQ, which does a pretty good job of taming any harshness that exists at the high end. The 707 would definitely be a step up above what you have, though whether you'll hear a vast difference is questionable. Similar to Yamaha, H/K tends to lean toward a brighter tone. Denons are a little more tame and sound fairly warm, so they work pretty well with Polks.
Just gonna throw this out there: If you can drop $1,079 and are feeling an itch to go beyond 5.1/7.1 surround, hit Newegg for Onkyo's TX-NR1007. It sports a fairly honest 135w/ch with 9 channels of amplification, has 192/24 Burr-Brown DACs, supports Audyssey DSX and Dolby PLII-Z, and the network capability (for firmware updates, DLNA music servers and internet radio) makes it an absolute steal at that price. I've been very happy with mine.Equipment list:
Onkyo TX-NR3010 9.2 AVR
Emotiva XPA-3 amp
Polk RTi70 mains, CSi40 center, RTi38 surrounds, RTi28 rears and heights
SVS 20-39CS+ subwoofer powered by Crown XLS1500
Oppo BDP-93 Blu-ray player
DarbeeVision DVP5000 video processor
Epson 8500UB 1080p projector
Elite Screens Sable 120" CineWhite screen -
http://cgi.videogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?rcvr71ch&1271082755&&&/-ONKYO-TXNR807-THX-7-2ch-netwo
http://cgi.videogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?rcvr71ch&1269199097&&&/-Pioneer-Elite-SC25-network-tr
http://cgi.videogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?rcvr71ch&1269199115&&&/-Pioneer-Elite-VSX23TXH-110w-x
http://cgi.videogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?rcvr71ch&1269197685&&&/-Pioneer-Elite-VSX21TXH-110w-x -
Gotta have a pretty large room for 7.1 or higher. 5.1 should be fine. I've been happy with the sound of my RTis and Yamaha. I have an Onkyo too, but prefer the Yamaha with the Polks. YMMV.
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kuntasensei wrote: »That said, if you're crossing the speakers over properly around 80Hz, anything above about 60w RMS is gonna be gravy in the average sized room.
Kuntasensei, thanks for the information! I am crossing all my speakers at 80Hz right now. My room size is 22'x18'x9'. Are you saying that 60W RMS is enough for the RTi8s, which can handle up to 250W? I'm still quite new to this, but I've read that I will get better mid- to low-range frequency reproduction with more power. I feel this is where my setup is currently lacking (specifically with the RTi8s).
I've looked at the TX-NR1007 on Newegg, but I'm trying to spend a little less if possible. As good a deal as it is, it's still more than I paid for all five of my speakers and my current AVR combined.
Although if I do decide to get spend close to $1000, I may very well go with the NR1007.
Are there receivers below $800 that give accurate W/ch specs? Or should I assume that they're all fudging to some extent?kuntasensei wrote: »The Onkyos are all going to be subject to delivering less power when driving five channels than they're spec'd for until you get up to the TX-NR1007 and above. -
mdaudioguy wrote: »Gotta have a pretty large room for 7.1 or higher. 5.1 should be fine. I've been happy with the sound of my RTis and Yamaha. I have an Onkyo too, but prefer the Yamaha with the Polks. YMMV.
Mdaudioguy, thanks for your input on using a Yamaha AVR with the Polks. I'm probably going to stay at 5.1 as long as I'm in this house. Because of the layout of my living room, my surround speakers are in the the back corners already. I'm not sure there's much reason to add rear surround speakers given my configuration. -
Leroyjr1, thanks for the links. I haven't really considered Pioneer yet. Do you know if they are considered "warmer" like the Onkyo or "brighter" like the Yamaha? I don't think that my local store carries that brand, so I can't go listen for myself.
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Leroyjr1, thanks for the links. I haven't really considered Pioneer yet. Do you know if they are considered "warmer" like the Onkyo or "brighter" like the Yamaha? I don't think that my local store carries that brand, so I can't go listen for myself.
Neutral, can't go wrong with the Elite products. For the prices listed above they can't be beat. -
Exactly! So, like you mentioned, be sure to keep your options open by ensuring whatever you get has pre-outs. The RTi8s are, by all reports, fabulous for HT.I'm still quite new to this, but I've read that I will get better mid- to low-range frequency reproduction with more power. I feel this is where my setup is currently lacking (specifically with the RTi8s).
If I were you, I'd keep my investment in an AVR as low as possible and look for an amp. If you could go as high as $1000 for an AVR, I think you'd be better served with a $400 AVR and then put the rest toward a 3 or 5 channel amp. JMO. -
mdaudioguy wrote: »If I were you, I'd keep my investment in an AVR as low as possible and look for an amp. If you could go as high as $1000 for an AVR, I think you'd be better served with a $400 AVR and then put the rest toward a 3 or 5 channel amp. JMO.
This was precisely my line of thought, but I wanted to get opinions from folks like yourself that have more experience with home audio than I do before I made a decision I may regret later. Thanks again for your help! -
If you're looking for a big power increase, you won't really find it with a bigger/better AVR. Some AVR's have more power than others, but generally speaking, the amp sections of most AVR's are very similar. Also, there's not going to really be any big volume/power improvements by going from an 80 wpc AVR to a 95, or even 110 wpc AVR. Remember, in order to gain an extra 3 db in volume, you basically have to double your amplifier power.
If you're seeking more power, get a cheaper AVR with pre-outs(an Onkyo 706 or possibly an 805 would both work well), then add an external amp. Even just amping front L/R, or the front three speakers will make a huge difference. Amping those speakers, would also ease the load on the AVR so it can drive the remaining speakers much more efficiently.
Of course, you can also just get a 5 channel amp for all channels.
How do you use your rig mainly? Primarily HT? Do you listen to a lot of music on it? If so, surround sound or 2 channel music listening?
I used to run an RTi HT setup with an Onkyo 606. I had RTi8's and a CSi5 up front, with RTi6's in back. So, it was a very similar setup to yours. It sounded great for HT through my 606, but musically, it left a lot to be desired. The RTi8's turned into an entirely different speaker when hooked up to my 2 channel rig though. Even my little "measly" 100 wpc Adcom GFA-545 made these things sing. The RTi's are really some great sounding speakers when properly amped. If your primary uses are for HT though, external amplification won't make as big of a difference in my experience.The nirvana inducer-
APC H10 Power Conditioner
Marantz UD5005 universal player
Parasound Halo P5 preamp
Parasound HCA-1200II power amp
PolkAudio LSi9's/PolkAudio SDA 2A's/PolkAudio Monitor 7A's
Audioquest Speaker Cables and IC's -
mdaudioguy wrote: »Exactly! So, like you mentioned, be sure to keep your options open by ensuring whatever you get has pre-outs. The RTi8s are, by all reports, fabulous for HT.
If I were you, I'd keep my investment in an AVR as low as possible and look for an amp. If you could go as high as $1000 for an AVR, I think you'd be better served with a $400 AVR and then put the rest toward a 3 or 5 channel amp. JMO.This was precisely my line of thought, but I wanted to get opinions from folks like yourself that have more experience with home audio than I do before I made a decision I may regret later. Thanks again for your help!
Considering your speakers are very easy to push I'd take a higher end AVR like a Elite sc-25/27 over a low end avr and lower end amp. The extra features and processing in the higher end avr is worth it.
My vote would be get the sc-25 and later down the road if you get bigger and harder to push speakers then just add a amp. The sc-25 have more than enough power for your speakers. -
comfortablycurt wrote: »How do you use your rig mainly? Primarily HT? Do you listen to a lot of music on it? If so, surround sound or 2 channel music listening?
I use it for HT probably 80% of the time. When I use it to listen to music it's a mixture of 2 channel and surround. I have several classical SACD discs and the rest of the time I listen to 2 channel. Listening to music is where the lack of power is the most noticeable, IMO. -
Considering your speakers are very easy to push I'd take a higher end AVR like a Elite sc-25/27 over a low end avr and lower end amp. The extra features and processing in the higher end avr is worth it.
My vote would be get the sc-25 and later down the road if you get bigger and harder to push speakers then just add a amp. The sc-25 have more than enough power for your speakers.
Yup - this would be a good strategy.
Look for a good deal on a used SC-25/27 - live with that for a bit and then you could go with a good used external amp.
Power up, baby!!
H9: If you don't trust what you are hearing, then maybe you need to be less invested in a hobby which all the pleasure comes from listening to music. -
I use it for HT probably 80% of the time. When I use it to listen to music it's a mixture of 2 channel and surround. I have several classical SACD discs and the rest of the time I listen to 2 channel. Listening to music is where the lack of power is the most noticeable, IMO.
It might not be the lack of power but rather the speakers itself. I have both rti a5's (rti 8) and a9's ( rti 12's) and no matter if I give them receiver power or 500 watts they sound great for HT but not as good for music.
Just a thought. -
Considering your speakers are very easy to push I'd take a higher end AVR like a Elite sc-25/27 over a low end avr and lower end amp. The extra features and processing in the higher end avr is worth it.
My vote would be get the sc-25 and later down the road if you get bigger and harder to push speakers then just add a amp. The sc-25 have more than enough power for your speakers.
I'm definitely considering this option, as well. I started researching the VSX-21TXH and VSX-23TXH earlier today based on your recommendation. My concern with the Pioneer Elite line is that Pioneer states on their website that "Pioneer does NOT authorize any dealers to sell Elite-branded products on the Internet (only in-store sales are permitted)". With this being the case, the price goes up significantly (for the SC-25 anyway...I couldn't find the VSX-23TXH at a store - maybe it's an older model?). -
It might not be the lack of power but rather the speakers itself. I have both rti a5's (rti 8) and a9's ( rti 12's) and no matter if I give them receiver power or 500 watts they sound great for HT but not as good for music.
Just a thought.
From what I've read, I think that the speakers are a part of the issue. Since I mostly use them for HT, that's okay. But if a better receiver would improve music playback, then I think an upgrade is worthwhile. There's part of me that's bought into the idea that more power will fill in the mid- to low-range frequencies in my music. I'm not saying that I'm right, but that's what I'm thinking. My speakers won't be perfect with a more powerful receiver, but I think they will be better.
BTW...do you consider the Onkyo NR807 or the NR1007 to be similar to Pioneer Elite receivers that you've recommended? -
I'm definitely considering this option, as well. I started researching the VSX-21TXH and VSX-23TXH earlier today based on your recommendation. My concern with the Pioneer Elite line is that Pioneer states on their website that "Pioneer does NOT authorize any dealers to sell Elite-branded products on the Internet (only in-store sales are permitted)". With this being the case, the price goes up significantly (for the SC-25 anyway...I couldn't find the VSX-23TXH at a store - maybe it's an older model?).
Those two links I gave you was from a authorized dealer called Hifi Heaven in Green Bay Wi that happens to sell some of there items on Videogon. I've bought two sc-07 from them. Very nice people to deal with and has some very nice hi end gear. -
Those two links I gave you was from a authorized dealer called Hifi Heaven in Green Bay Wi that happens to sell some of there items on Videogon. I've bought two sc-07 from them. Very nice people to deal with and has some very nice hi end gear.
I'll take another look then. Also, please disregard my question above about the two Onkyos. After reading more about the SC-25, I think I answered my own question.
And thanks again for your feedback. I really appreciate it. -
+1 for the SC-25..
I recently upgraded from the an Onkyo SR-601 running RTi8 fronts, CSi5 center, and R15 surrounds.. Hunted around on Videogon and got a Pioneer SC-25 for $950 new, which i thought was decent..
I really the like the way my setup sounds now compared to the Onkyo.. I also got my SC-25 from Hi-fi Heaven in Green Bay i believe (via Videgon)
Hope this is helpful..
Jason2-Channel - So far...
Pre: Dodd ELP
DAC: W4S-Dac2
Source(s): Computer and Denon 2910
Amp: Parasound HCA-1200II
Speakers: LSi9s - Vr3 Fortress Mod -
There's an Onkyo TX-SR 805 on sale used on this site right above your post at the moment....450. If you're willing to go used and the unit is in good shape it's worth considering!
https://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98006
cnhCurrently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!
Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
[sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash] -
+1 for the SC-25..
I recently upgraded from the an Onkyo SR-601 running RTi8 fronts, CSi5 center, and R15 surrounds.. Hunted around on Videogon and got a Pioneer SC-25 for $950 new, which i thought was decent..
I really the like the way my setup sounds now compared to the Onkyo.. I also got my SC-25 from Hi-fi Heaven in Green Bay i believe (via Videgon)
Hope this is helpful..
Jason
Thanks for the suggestion. This is one I'm definitely considering if I decide to spend $1000. With this receiver, the class D amp caught my attention. You've got a setup similar to mine, and the RC160 that I've currently got is similar to the SR607 (I believe), so I suspect your 601 was similar. Can you describe the difference in the sound you get from the SC-25 versus the 601? -
There's an Onkyo TX-SR 805 on sale used on this site right above your post at the moment....450. If you're willing to go used and the unit is in good shape it's worth considering!
https://www.polkaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98006
cnh
I'm definitely willing to go the used route if it looks like the receiver has been taken care of and the price is right. Thanks for the suggestion. -
Can you describe the difference in the sound you get from the SC-25 versus the 601?
While I'm not very good at using the normal audio jargon, i'll try to describe why i like the pioneer more
I actually really liked my setup with the Onkyo 601, but wanted an AVR with HDMI switching and pre-outs and started shopping around. I expected to use some M2200 Outlaw Audio monoblocks to help power my RTi8s once i found a receiver i liked.
After reading as much as i could (largely reading what the people here had to say with their extensive experiences), I decided the SC-25 had all the features i wanted in an AVR and its amplifier was probably plenty for my setup.
And for the record, i've only logged probably 10-15hours total on the SC-25 since its still really new. I seem to hear a "cleaner" sound out of my RTi8s and CSi5, the Onkyo seemed to struggle more powering the speakers when compared to the easy at which the SC-25 does.
While the sound with the Onkyo was never fatiguing or anything, it just seems that the SC-25 does the same job with far less effort and the speakers produce crisper and cleaner sound. There seems to be more definition within the sound as well. I've only watched a couple movies and played some Mass Effect 2 on the setup, so i haven't listened to any music or extensively listened to movies with intense sound tracks..
Hopefully that's helpful Britay.
Jason2-Channel - So far...
Pre: Dodd ELP
DAC: W4S-Dac2
Source(s): Computer and Denon 2910
Amp: Parasound HCA-1200II
Speakers: LSi9s - Vr3 Fortress Mod -
+1 on checking used units out. There are times when you can find a real gem. I bought my avr used and have been very happy with it.
Good Luck"They're always talking about my drinking, but never mention my thirst" Oscar Wilde
Pre-Amp: Anthem AVM 20
Amp: Carver TFM-35
Amp: Rotel RB-870BX
Fronts : SDA 1B w/ RDO-194s
T.V.:Plasma TC-P54G25
Bluray: Oppo BDP-93
Speaker Cables: MIT Terminater
Interconnect Cables:DH Labs Silver Sonic BL-1isonic -
feel i need 2 comment here,,,,,i owned those speakers for about a yr w a denon avr then i got a hk 354 w preouts.
1st i used a old kenwood amp....was blown away w the improved sound and improved bass response
then i got a xpa-2 from emotiva and i am blown away every time i play music or do ht...these speakers need an amp.......trust mefronts=rti12s(cherry)
center=csi3(cherry)
sub=psw125(cherry)
emotiva xpa-2
harmon kardon 354
sony cdp
ipod 8gb
audioquest diamondback 1m
"Maesto" straightwire cables
pangea ac-9
playstation3/120gb=blu-ray/media server
monitor=lg 55inch lcd(1080p)
TT Set-up=Pro-Ject RM 1.3
Kenwood Phono
bren1 Clamp
Herbies Slipmat
"It doesnt mean that much to me,to mean that much to you" -
feel i need 2 comment here,,,,,i owned those speakers for about a yr w a denon avr then i got a hk 354 w preouts.
1st i used a old kenwood amp....was blown away w the improved sound and improved bass response
then i got a xpa-2 from emotiva and i am blown away every time i play music or do ht...these speakers need an amp.......trust me
The Pioneer SC series is in a totally different league than your HK. -
Hopefully that's helpful Britay.
Jason
That was definitely helpful and I appreciate your taking the time to respond! I got a chance to listen to the SC-25 this weekend and was impressed. I am seriously considering this receiver - the main question is whether it is so much better than the VSX-23THX that it justifies the additional cost. I couldn't tell much difference between the two, but that may have had a lot to do with how Best Buy had them set up. -
The Pioneer SC series is in a totally different league than your HK.
Leroy, or anyone else who may know:
When i got a chance to listen to the SC-25 and the VSX-23THX, I couldn't tell much difference between them. I suspect part of the reason was due to the way Best Buy had them set up. Based on what I heard, I'm not sure that the SC-25 was worth the additional cost. Do you know whether the difference (in sound) between these two receivers is a subtle difference or should it have been more pronounced?
It doesn't make sense to spend more for a difference I can't hear, but I think there must have been more of a difference than Best Buy's set up demonstrated. -
As pointed out above, the fair comparison between a Pioneer Elite and an Onkyo would involve the 1007 or even higher series.
The SC-25 is FAR more powerful than an Onkyo 600 series...no contest.
The ICE amps will also give you more power, cleaner sound and better dynamic levels than the cheaper VSX-23...you'd need to turn up the sound a bit to hear that. But you will hear it under the right conditions!
The ICE amps are very very 'clean', lots of detail and have an 'almost' inexhaustible reserve of power! The 23 will clip a lot earlier...though it is a FINE AVR for the price.
cnhCurrently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!
Polk Lsi-7s, Def Tech 8" sub, HK 3490, HK HD 990 (CDP/DAC), AKG Q701s
[sig. changed on a monthly basis as I rotate in and out of my stash] -
Just throwing this out there. If you are willing to go used you can get an NAD T765 or similar for under $1K.
I use a T765 and they are conservatively rated at 125 wpc. It can be used in both 5.1 or 7.1 configurations. It effortlessly drives my RT2000Ps, CS350LS, and Rt/Fx's. I use it for HT duty only and it has plenty of power to shake the house. Not once have I driven it to clipping and I listen to movies very loud. It also has pre-outs.
I would describe the house sound of NAD as warm.
There is another member here pearsall001 that uses the T765 as his preamp in his two channel rig and has compared it to some of the higher end preamps he has ever used and I can attest to the fact that he has used some really great preamps. Take that for what it is worth musically.
