Opinion/help needed with LSi 25s

asmd

Hi fellas...

its been several months now since i got a pair of lsi 25s for the hall and finally got all the bits and bobs to kit it out.

lsi25 pair.
10 gauge speaker interconnects
Pioneer tx 25 receiver/preout
Emotiva XPA-3 running two channels only
HTPC playing FLAC via Foobar.
Dacs - various, 1) Cambridge Dac magic 2) M-Audio Revo 3) Receivers Internal Dacs.

ive also tried running them direct using a Cambridge 540A amp.

and well the thing is, that there seems to be a lack of treble.

my reference is:
Main - Cambridge 540a/Cambridge Dac magic/Focal 806v/HTPC Flac - and i can play it flat and it sounds darned good.
i also regularly listen to other speaker combinations.

While i will admit that positioning is a little skewed due to placement restrictions - they are in the hall after all. but placement would mainly affect the bass. Speakers are toed in towards the listening spot. Receiver is set to defeat and only acts as a bypass. Running it direct to the amp - sound the same, lacking treble.

Theres a lack of separation of voices. it sound flat and lifeless.

only when i kick up the EQ in the 2-8Khz range a few db does it bring some liveliness to the playback material.

is it me just not used to them... or are they treble shy?

Hawkeye

Could you post a pic? I'm having a hard time understanding placement in a "hall".

Gordon

bluecomet

They are not treble shy. I am not sure why you are having an issue. I would lean toward something in the gear before I point a finger at the Lsi 25's. I run a Carver amp with mine and they are excellent.

zeppage2

Did you remove the jumpers?
If you have, the speaker wires need to be in the upper set of binding posts.
I don't know if that would cause your problem, but it is something to explore.

asmd

thanks for the replies guys.. will post pic shortly and hopefull with your help can maybe sort it out.

much appreciated.

asmd

Hi guys, this is what my set up looks like.
Dont mind the mess, its a work in progress.
The placement issue is that the towers are too close to the side walls and theres a alcove behind each apeaker as well, which doesnt help. I do get the effects of it affecting the bass.

but why should it be treble shy?




any and all help/suggestions as to remedies would be much appreciated.

regards,
asmd.

asmd

zeppage2 wrote: »

Did you remove the jumpers?
If you have, the speaker wires need to be in the upper set of binding posts.
I don't know if that would cause your problem, but it is something to explore.

the posts are bridged properly. am running them full range and a small sub for LFE.

because of their placement, i dont get the bass effect as i want. turned high enough for movie use, it gets boomy.

so, i have them running full range for audio use, and the sub for lfe when used with video/movies.

BottomFeeder

Oh wow. I'm not sure how much it would impact the treble, but I strongly suggest that you move your speakers closer to each other (maybe 7 or 8 feet apart?) & to the center of the room and try to get them equally spaced from the rear wall. You've got to be able to place them better than that. Good luck!

asmd

thanks for the reply,

but bringing them to the middle of the room is not going to work.
i had placed them better initially before putting them like they are now, very impractical as it blocks both alcoves. the alcove on the right will have a cabinet moved into it shortly. with them in the middle of the room, while the problems of having them close against the wall werent there, the treble wasnt much different. vocals didnt have the presence that i expected.

holt

+1 on what BottomFeeder wrote.

I see your problem though.... Sometimes when you're trying to retain the function of the room, you just can't place your speakers and sub optimally. Fireplaces seem to dictate exactly what goes on in a room.
One thing I couldn't see... What are you using as feet on the speakers - spikes? And exactly how far away are the couches?
I'm a novice so I'm sure you'll get better advice, but I have the LSi15's and giving them space and isolating them from the floor seems to do the trick for me.
Form follows function. One thing you could try is placing those speakers where they work the best in that room and designing the seating arrangement from there (I know, I know.... I can feel your dirty looks with that suggestion).

john22614

If it were me, the first thing I would do is think about relocating your rack, even to the adjacent wall on the left when looking at the front sound stage. Then bring the speakers out so they are out from the back wall and closer together. They don't have to be placed way out from the back wall, but they do need some isolation to give you the rich, clear sound you deserve with those speakers. Come to think of it, those alcoves actually can be a good thing, say if you line the front of the speakers up with the front of the fireplace they will have plenty of space and should improve the sound immensely. Then, I would determine toe, if any, in based on how they sound from the listening positions

I think this would actually improve the overall appearance of the room and give you a nice sound stage with the mains moderately in front of the tv and center channel. I actually think you have a very nice room to work with with plenty of depth for the main seating couch and chair.

asmd

the best location for them as ive tried is just either side of the edge of the fireplace about 3 feet out from the the wall the tv is on. that places them just either side of the coffee table smack in the way of everything.

putting them halfway between each alcove about 5 feet away from the back wall didnt sound as good. the side wall arent doing me any favor. and also from where im standing the room doesnt end/ theres a half height partition behind the sofa and the room continues another 18 feet back.

i have spikes, but havent installed them yet, as the speakers are still being moved around. once the final, i'll install the spikes.

would isolating them from the floors affect the treble? the carpet is deep pile, about 1.5 inches thick.

coming back ot the point. its the treble thats got me concerned. as i mentioned, there seems to be a lack of presence to the vocals and poor separation. it kinda sound muffled and flat. once i kick up the EQ from 2-8khz (either using FB2K) or via the receiver, it improves the sound immensely.

the adverse effects of the poor placement is currently being handled by a parametric EQ.. not quite perfectly yet i admit. the things hard to dial in and the built in auto tuning (MCACC) of the receiver never seems to get it right. so, im still in the process of dialing it in on the fly. its been said that its a poor way of handling poor placement or where room treatments or relocation should be used to fix the problem, and after facing it myself first hand. i cant agree more. but whats a guy to do. for now at least, this is where the speakers will have to stay. The tvs wired into the wall, so i cant move it to reconfigure the room.

and its not only with this setup, even with other amps and sources, it still doesn't sound right.

as it is, it sounds best when sitting at the position of the coffee table... which makes the listening position too close to the tv.

yeah, the fireplace does dictate the rooms layout and when we bought the place, we thought we had everything figured out.

didnt figure on this problem. XI

holt

I think a better choice of word would have been "anchored" rather than "isolated". If they're riding on top of the carpet then that might not be good for the sound. It might be worth a shot to try the spikes to see how it affects the sound. Supposedly, it helps the bass more than high end, but it helped me in gaining some spatial definition on my bamboo floors. You can try them where they sit now and see if that does anything and if it does, have someone sit in the listening area and (with some help) try toeing in more or out and see if that makes anymore difference. I liked John22614's suggestion about the rack.

asmd

i tried installing the spikes, it (as a expected) made no effect to the treble.

Demiurge

What does the other side of the room look like?

Hawkeye

Based on your picture, that room should be screaming treble. Lots of hard and reflective surfaces. The toe looks a bit severe to me. And as mentioned above they are too far apart. But if that is where they have to stay, your going to have a hard time.

Have you tried any other speaker in that room? You mentioned the sound was poor with other sources and gear but not speakers. Your certain the tweeters are working? I'll step on thin ice here and ask have you tried a silver wire yet?

Gordon

phuz

How many hours do you have on them? It could be 100+ hours before they really start to open up.

But yes, placement is going to be an issue. I wouldn't want to be you.

tcrossma

Try to take as many things out of the equation as possible here. First verify that the tweeters are working. Then do as simple a connection as you possibly can.

Put the speakers in their "ideal" position temporarily, and then try as direct a connection as possible from source to speakers. If you have a CD player lying around, hook that up and do CD=>Receiver=>Speakers. Do a "pure direct" or other source direct setting on the receive to take all processing out of the equation, and see if things improve at all. If not, and if the tweeters are in fact working, then I'm not sure what your problem might be as the highs on the LSi series are quite good.

If things do improve, start introducing each of your original components one by one to track down the cause.

Good luck

lumpy

the LSi's need to have the tweeters on the inside and the woofer facing the wall. they have a left and a right speaker.

I agree that taking a tweeter out and hooking it direct to a speaker cable will tell you if the tweeters ar ok.

and/or - try taking the jumpers off and hooking your cable to the top posts only to see what difference that makes

jimmydep

tcrossma wrote: »

Try to take as many things out of the equation as possible here. First verify that the tweeters are working. Then do as simple a connection as you possibly can.

Put the speakers in their "ideal" position temporarily, and then try as direct a connection as possible from source to speakers. If you have a CD player lying around, hook that up and do CD=>Receiver=>Speakers. Do a "pure direct" or other source direct setting on the receive to take all processing out of the equation, and see if things improve at all. If not, and if the tweeters are in fact working, then I'm not sure what your problem might be as the highs on the LSi series are quite good.

If things do improve, start introducing each of your original components one by one to track down the cause.

Good luck

+1 ........Make sure the drivers are working, then^^^^^^^^

LSI towers are a challenge to place in a less than perfect room. Take your time, a small change in position can make a big difference in the sound, although usually it effects the lower end more than the uppper range.

Good luck

JImmy

asmd

Hi guys..

i am at my wits end here!!
i have tried everything suggested to me so far. all drivers work. only the suggestions wrt to positiong, well i cant get around that. location wise, they're restricted to roughly where they are.

i brought down the focals and ABx them.
Geez..!! with the Focals, it feels like a curtain or drape has been lifted form the sound. everything is crystalline clear with good separation. voices are precisely placed and the bass is tight and punchy.

returning to the lsi25, it sounded muffled/veiled. there is no air around the instruments. the bass is not well defined. i positioned each speaker in the same place when listening. all listened to with through "pure direct", all using FLAC as source through optical SPDIF with the receiver doing the decoding.

picture:



is it just the Polk sound that doesn't sit right with me?
Help!!!!

i really dont want to part with them if i dont have to. i have invested in an entire set. cs center and fxi surrounds.

all replies are much appreciated guys.

comfortablycurt

The LSi's are fairly laid back sounding by their nature...especially compared to Focals, which are generally somewhat more forward sounding.

I'm not ruling out placement/equipment issues...but it may just be that the LSi's aren't your cup of tea.


What center channel are you using? You mentioned CS series...be aware of the fact that the CS centers aren't timbre matched to your LSi's. Not that this would directly impair the performance of the LSi's...but mixing speakers does take away a certain amount of cohesiveness from the soundstage.

The FXi's aren't timbre matched either, just for the record.

asmd

in my comparison, i only compared music in stereo. the center and surround centers arent my concern. i only listen to music in stereo.

my fear is that, the lsi's sound signature may not be to my taste. barring all else and equipment synergy... im all out of ideas. two pairs of speakers sounding very different given the same circumstances... looks like i may be so out of luck.

what do these go for used? they're mint. (crunching numbers... drat.)

phuz

I'm tellin ya, you just need time. I've had 3 different pairs of LSi front speakers and a complete 5.1 setup in the past. hey all needed 100-200 hours of good play time before they started to open up and sing musically.

I'm also curious as to what interconnects and speaker cable you're using.

Also, we're all assuming that you're using a stereo mode and no DSP/surround modes on the reciever, right?

First and foremost, play the @#$% out of those speakers for weeks. Leave them playing when you go to work, go out of town, etc.

With that said, they are a laid back and refined speaker and you may not be used to that sound. You may want to check out the VM or RTiA line and see if you like them a bit more. I wouldn't do that until you give yourself some quality time with the LSi line though.

asmd

im using these speaker calbes by JSC. 10 gauge.
http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/JSC-WIRE---CABLE-412225A-V-1000-/24-2040

no interconnects. bare wire.

well, i admit im not a believer in breakin.. maybe witin the first few hours... to loosen up, maybe.
mine get used a max of 2-3 hours per day average combined with music, tv, movies. i have them for a couple of months now. about 150 hours total i guess.

no DSP effect added. just direct stereo.
i have tried EQing them using the receivers EQ but i cant get them to sound right.
even the missus agrees, they're not engaging. (when the missus agrees with me, i know its not in my head)

i'll try to play them some more. or maybe bring these to the study and use Foobar or a yamaha EQ to bring them about to my taste. if all else fails.... sheesh.

phuz

Hmm, I still say give them more time.

asmd

ive tested the tweeters and the work.
you've got a very similar setup as me.. i cant for the life of me figure out why they sound the way they do but the Focals sound just fine.

using MCACC on the lsi's didnt help much. it did what it thought was right, it didnt sound right to me. manually adjusting it was better.

a finally decided to run a EQ between the line out of the receiver and the emotiva amp to dial in the lsis. i set the reciever to pure direct and adjusted the EQ to flatten the frequency. there seems to be a hole somewhere in 2khz. the other two bucks are corrections for the room and suboptimal placement. I suppose the Focals are easier on placements in this case.

After EQing using a Yamaha EQ, they sound decidedly better, they sound more open and airy, less muffled. better separation of instruments.

picture:


This will have to do for now. Its much better. For HT use, ill configure the reciever to set it up but for audio, its pure direct and good old fashioned analogue EQ.

appreciate all replies guys and the forum in general as a sounding board.

asmd

a bit of an update.

i have since removed the EQ from the setup and made do with the correction features within the receiver.

well, i still wasnt entirely happy with them. the room provided a horrible 125hz resonance that somehow didnt bother the Focals.

anyhoo, i was thinking of flogging the big LSIs off for a pair of martin logan sources. figured if im not happy with them, no point in holding on to them.

went off to the store yesterday to audition some speakers and as it turns out there was a demo pair of ML source next to a pair of LSI25s. they werent in a listening room, but outside and conneced to an Onkyo (or was it yamaha?) receiver. i gave them a listen and i can honestly say the LSI25 sounded so very nice.. like when i heard them before i decided to buy them. to me, they sounded better than the ML source. (receiver set to pure direct)

figuring that it was the set up that sounded good, i turned them around to have a look. to my surprise they werent set up at all. the left crossover was up all the way and the right sub wasnt powered. but still, i heard the tight bass and crisp treble that im missing??!?

i dont know guys... this is very confusing. anyway.. its the sound that made the decision to buy them. so i headed home. figured i'll let them play some more and give them a chance to impress me. if a pair that not even dialed in and randomly positioned can sound so good, i dont see why mine shouldnt.

btw, i bought them refurbed from polk direct.. that wouldn't have anything to do with what im experiencing right?? (why would both behave in the exact same way??)

nooshinjohn

^^where are you located?

asmd

lone star state.

nooshinjohn

asmd wrote: »

lone star state.

Damn:eek:... If you were closer I would have volunteered to help you get them set up properly.;)