Heat Pump Water Heater

Systems

Hello

So what do you guys think about this technology? Been thinking about getting one, they do have a tax credit on these too. My local electric company also has a credit/rebate.

http://www.geappliances.com/heat-pump-hot-water-heater/electric-water-heater-features.htm

http://products.geappliances.com/ApplProducts/Dispatcher?REQUEST=SpecPage&Sku=GEH50DNSRSA

Yes, it is expensive but with all the credits I think I can get it down to $800...

raidersrule76

Ok so your going the electric route..... I see it still only has a ten year warranty so my question is why not go with a tankless water heater?

Have you compared the two as far as engery use? The only reason I ask is even at 800 its still a lot for a water heater, and with a tankless you will still get all the hot water you need. Just my .02



Mark

obieone

I've been an hvac tech for almost 9 years, and I'm not seeing how this can work for both heat pump and a/c? If you put it in HP mode, that'll cause your WH to turn into an ICE machine!
Hopefully one of our resident M.E.'s can explain what I'm missing?

Systems

Yes, I did investigate the tankless route, which would be electric also. I found out I would need to put in a pretty sophisticated water treatment system so the water heater elements wouldn't corrode. And my panel would be border line with the current draw on it.....

raidersrule76 wrote: »

Ok so your going the electric route..... I see it still only has a ten year warranty so my question is why not go with a tankless water heater?

Have you compared the two as far as engery use? The only reason I ask is even at 800 its still a lot for a water heater, and with a tankless you will still get all the hot water you need. Just my .02



Mark

Systems

Yes, they did mention about the area it was in cooling off considerably. In my case It would go into the basement in a big laundry room area, which we don't spend a whole lot of time in anyway...and its right off the area where I have the pellet stove at...

obieone wrote: »

I've been an hvac tech for almost 9 years, and I'm not seeing how this can work for both heat pump and a/c? If you put it in HP mode, that'll cause your WH to turn into an ICE machine!
Hopefully one of our resident M.E.'s can explain what I'm missing?

disneyjoe7

obieone wrote: »

I've been an hvac tech for almost 9 years, and I'm not seeing how this can work for both heat pump and a/c? If you put it in HP mode, that'll cause your WH to turn into an ICE machine!
Hopefully one of our resident M.E.'s can explain what I'm missing?

You scarring me, if working as heat pump being a reversed ac thing. The water has the heat side, the air side is cool, which adds another benefit for me cooling my garage down some during the summer. :cool:

mshan242700

I would say install a well built, reliable standard tank water heater, wait 10 years when it is time to replace it, then reassess how all of this new technology has proven itself over time.

Savings you think you are getting could get easily wiped out by need for costly repair or even replacement for technology that may not have been proven in the field for quite some time.

Plumber told me that the they could make standard tank water heaters last forever if they wanted, but that wouldn't be in manufacturer's best interest...

It would be like buying a hybrid car now, thinking you are saving so much money on gas, then find out several years down the road that it needs an expensive repair for parts that are not readily available on a large mass market basis and cost a lot right now. Let someone else be there guinea pig / test lab.

Systems

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

You scarring me, if working as heat pump being a reversed ac thing. The water has the heat side, the air side is cool, which adds another benefit for me cooling my garage down some during the summer. :cool:

If your in a southern climate that would be the best place to put it. Would work very efficiently in your case...

disneyjoe7

raidersrule76 wrote: »

Ok so your going the electric route..... I see it still only has a ten year warranty so my question is why not go with a tankless water heater?

Have you compared the two as far as engery use? The only reason I ask is even at 800 its still a lot for a water heater, and with a tankless you will still get all the hot water you need. Just my .02


Mark

Being all Electric a tankless energy use is not that lower when considering conventional vs. tankless hot water systems. I remember something in the range of 20% savings, not much for the expanse IMHO

raidersrule76

mshan242700 wrote: »

I would say install a well built, reliable standard tank water heater, wait 10 years when it is time to replace it, then reassess how all of this new technology has proven itself over time.

Savings you think you are getting could get easily wiped out by need for costly repair or even replacement for technology that may not have been proven in the field for quite some time.

Plumber told me that the they could make standard tank water heaters last forever if they wanted, but that wouldn't be in manufacturer's best interest...

It would be like buying a hybrid car now, thinking you are saving so much money on gas, then find out several years down the road that it needs an expensive repair for parts that are not readily available on a large mass market basis and cost a lot right now. Let someone else be there guinea pig / test lab.

+1 I agree


Let someone else test the waters.

It seems like a lot of coin for an electric water heater and I'm sure parts are not going to be cheap if something does happen.

Mark

Systems

Yeah, same thing I run into every time I try to do something to save a little energy/electricity...I know GE did some pretty extensive testing on the unit before they put in production, that is, according to a couple of the "reps" I talked to.

mshan242700 wrote: »

I would say install a well built, reliable standard tank water heater, wait 10 years when it is time to replace it, then reassess how all of this new technology has proven itself over time.

Savings you think you are getting could get easily wiped out by need for costly repair or even replacement for technology that may not have been proven in the field for quite some time.

Plumber told me that the they could make standard tank water heaters last forever if they wanted, but that wouldn't be in manufacturer's best interest...

It would be like buying a hybrid car now, thinking you are saving so much money on gas, then find out several years down the road that it needs an expensive repair for parts that are not readily available on a large mass market basis and cost a lot right now. Let someone else be there guinea pig / test lab.

disneyjoe7

I don't know LOVE this idea, and didn't realize they are so small in size only adding what 12" to tank. My tank seems fine but is 15 years old now, and realize it cost me like $500 to run a year. I can't see that thing not lasting 10+ years before **** fails. Really like the idea, now got to figure out what to do with the condenser drain line, as I don't have a drain in the garage.

Systems

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

I don't know LOVE this idea, and didn't realize they are so small in size only adding what 12" to tank. My tank seems fine but is 15 years old now, and realize it cost me like $500 to run a year. I can't see that thing not lasting 10+ years before **** fails. Really like the idea, now got to figure out what to do with the condenser drain line, as I don't have a drain in the garage.

One, other thing, maybe you realize this. When its on the heat pump side all its doing is circulating the freon through those coils and the standard heating coils that are in it also aren't on at all. So in theory maybe it won't cause so much corrosion like standard heaters do, thus making it last a little longer...

disneyjoe7

Ok then I should state this, just how many people flush their Hot Water tanks to remove crap settlement in the tank? This adds life to the tank also, HP or not.

mshan242700

I have a State Industries gas water heater and think it is a very reliable, quality product: http://www.statewaterheaters.com/

I think I remember reading that there are actually only like 3 actual manufacturers of water heaters, I think technology is pretty mature, so it may depend upon what compromises any particular manufacturer made to reach a particular price point.

I-SIG

Lorthos wrote: »

Yes, I did investigate the tankless route, which would be electric also. I found out I would need to put in a pretty sophisticated water treatment system so the water heater elements wouldn't corrode. And my panel would be border line with the current draw on it.....

Going tankless would probably involve a lot more than just upgrading your meter base and/or panel. There would likely be service conductor upgrades and quite possibly transformer upgrades for a whole-house system. That's several grand easily.

Wes

obieone

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

You scarring me, if working as heat pump being a reversed ac thing. The water has the heat side, the air side is cool, which adds another benefit for me cooling my garage down some during the summer. :cool:

I get the concept bro:rolleyes: My point was, it ISN'T a heat pump, if all it's good for is heating water, and blowing out A/C.
This thing may have a reversing valve, but unless you like COLD-**** showers, I don't see the benefit? Running this may be cheaper than straight electric elements, but I'd invest my $$$ elsewhere

I think it would be cheaper, and simpler, just doing a geotherm HP system, where you run water into the ground, and let mother earth either draw out the cold or the heat?

Systems

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

Ok then I should state this, just how many people flush their Hot Water tanks to remove crap settlement in the tank? This adds life to the tank also, HP or not.

Yes, good point also!

disneyjoe7

obieone wrote: »

I get the concept bro:rolleyes: My point was, it ISN'T a heat pump, if all it's good for is heating water, and blowing out A/C.
This thing may have a reversing valve, but unless you like COLD-**** showers, I don't see the benefit? Running this may be cheaper than straight electric elements, but I'd invest my $$$ elsewhere

I think it would be cheaper, and simpler, just doing a geotherm HP system, where you run water into the ground, and let mother earth either draw out the cold or the heat?

Not sure what your point is, I live in a HP heated house, with Electric Strip as back up. I know for a dollar worth of heat if possible I want the HP to do it as it cost me $.20 for that dollar of heat. If Electric Strip a dollar worth of heat is well a dollar. I could see the benefit of a HP heated Hot Water tank system as it hit me in the face.


As your point of a reversing value you're correct. I don't think it would have one either, but stating it the other way I don't feel the average Joe would get it. It's a Marketing thing only to state HP.

pitdogg2

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

Ok then I should state this, just how many people flush their Hot Water tanks to remove crap settlement in the tank? This adds life to the tank also, HP or not.

I do once a year. In my area the water is very hard and the stuff that comes out is rather large. I've also replaced the anode that keeps the water heater from eating itself just one of the things they don't tell you that will help your heater last many many years. at least until the burner plate goes bad :0

disneyjoe7

I never replaced an Anode rod, but have a good friend of mine whom stated if replaced would keep the heater working for 30+ years or so.

concealer404

mshan242700 wrote: »

I would say install a well built, reliable standard tank water heater, wait 10 years when it is time to replace it, then reassess how all of this new technology has proven itself over time.

Savings you think you are getting could get easily wiped out by need for costly repair or even replacement for technology that may not have been proven in the field for quite some time.

Plumber told me that the they could make standard tank water heaters last forever if they wanted, but that wouldn't be in manufacturer's best interest...

It would be like buying a hybrid car now, thinking you are saving so much money on gas, then find out several years down the road that it needs an expensive repair for parts that are not readily available on a large mass market basis and cost a lot right now. Let someone else be there guinea pig / test lab.

This technology has been around for a LONG time. Google "Geotherm." Been used in HVAC for a very long time. It's very efficient, and takes advantage of a resource that is not depletable.

Groundwater heat pumps have been used in houses for quite some time now.

Polkersince85

A well insulated standard heater with properly insulated pipes plus a timer matched to your lifesyle can save a lot of energy costs. You pay dearly for the newer technology. Most install a heater with too small capacity which causes the elements to run longer. If I were to experiment, I would go with solar preheating the water.

disneyjoe7

I see some houses around me doing Solar Hot Water, but I wonder the expanse vs. the annual cost to run doesn't run over a AC based system. Solar system around 5k and AC based system 2k installed. 1800kw vs. ? for solar it would need to back up system at times for a dollar in dollar out pure electric. Ten years for anything to run without trouble is about right but being the solar is more expanse more controls everything I got to think more to repair down the road also.

disneyjoe7

Lorthos wrote: »

Hello

So what do you guys think about this technology? Been thinking about getting one, they do have a tax credit on these too. My local electric company also has a credit/rebate.

http://www.geappliances.com/heat-pump-hot-water-heater/electric-water-heater-features.htm

http://products.geappliances.com/ApplProducts/Dispatcher?REQUEST=SpecPage&Sku=GEH50DNSRSA

Yes, it is expensive but with all the credits I think I can get it down to $800...

So how does it get down to $800?

Systems

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

So how does it get down to $800?

It came to $860 with this:

The GeoSpring hybrid water heater with heat pump technology is ENERGY STAR® qualified with an energy factor of 2.35. The Emergency Economic Stabilization Act provides consumers with a 30% tax credit on the purchase and installation price of an ENERGY STAR heat pump water heater. That means a consumer could receive a tax credit of $450 or more depending on income level, retail price and installation cost.

And my local electric company offers a 20% credit on anything heat pump/electric related. They also have a program that will shut off the water heater during off-peak usage, like from 9:00 p.m. to 6:00a.m. and from 9:00a.m to 5:00p.m. Its tied into the phone line somehow...and I'm not sure how much more of a credit that is..

disneyjoe7

So you're going to get 30% from the Feds, 20% from your electric company.... Nice

BTW did you know Home Depot sells a HP Hot Water Tank now? I went to GE website and it stated a HD store which I go to have these Hot Water Tanks, when I got there yesterday they didn't have GE but had Rheem HP tanks. They had other GE water tanks but not the HP tank? He did state when he needed to get some support for a Rheem tankless hot water tank he got GE support people? Could these two be the same? Anyway the Rheem tank was $1498.00 from them.

Systems

disneyjoe7 wrote: »

So you're going to get 30% from the Feds, 20% from your electric company.... Nice

BTW did you know Home Depot sells a HP Hot Water Tank now? I went to GE website and it stated a HD store which I go to have these Hot Water Tanks, when I got there yesterday they didn't have GE but had Rheem HP tanks. They had other GE water tanks but not the HP tank? He did state when he needed to get some support for a Rheem tankless hot water tank he got GE support people? Could these two be the same? Anyway the Rheem tank was $1498.00 from them.

Yes, I was looking at the Rheem initially, but the GE was more compact and had more features on the control panel. The Rheem is pretty tall and the water inlets aren't on the top. I don't know I wouldn't think the two would be the same...they are radically different..

I did come up with this when I did a google:

Several reviews and plumbing forums agree that Bradford White water heaters have the best reputation for build quality and rapid repairs. Rheem/Ruud, which also makes water heaters under the GE, Marathon and Richmond brands, comes in a close second.

Maybe Rheem is making it, who knows these days....

John30_30

concealer404 wrote: »

This technology has been around for a LONG time. Google "Geotherm." Been used in HVAC for a very long time. It's very efficient, and takes advantage of a resource that is not depletable.

Groundwater heat pumps have been used in houses for quite some time now.

Man, they were using heatpump technology like back in Babylonian times. Geothermal constant of like 58 degrees or sumpin all year round.

Polk addict

So you're gonna heat up water, great... But then you're taking air in from around that thing, and so you're gonna cool the air down... So if you had one of these installed inside your bathroom...

Systems

Yes, we understand that, definately not the place to put it, in the bathroom. Its recommended that you install it in a garage, attic, or basement....and in an area no smaller then 10x12.

Polk addict wrote: »

So you're gonna heat up water, great... But then you're taking air in from around that thing, and so you're gonna cool the air down... So if you had one of these installed inside your bathroom...