Integrated Amplifiers vs. Pre/Power

concealer404

I personally just like the flexibility of separates, but i've heard some integrateds that i could be satisfied with as well.

markmarc

heiney9 wrote: »

Let's not give the impression that all or even most integrated's are equal to or better than seperates. In many instances to hit a particular price point integrated's are a compromise and it's usually in the pre-amp/input section.

Integrated's can serve a great purpose and with proper research you can certainly get an integrated that outperforms similar seperates but the way people are going on gives the impression they are always better.

Just like a reciever there can be compromises built in, not always but many times.

YMMV

H9

Fair point Heiney, it's all about quality and the price point you are after. Research and seat time are invaluable in finding good sonics and value.

heiney9

markmarc wrote: »

Fair point Heiney, it's all about quality and the price point you are after. Research and seat time are invaluable in finding good sonics and value.

I'll add that goes for seperates too. And FTR, I do agree with Lush's original point that most if not all integrated's are going to be better sounding to most than an AVR with a entry level amp.

I guess that's the point he was originally trying to make, and I agree. I'd take a mid level Cambridge integrated over an HK AVR mated to an Emo amp, for example. I think most would agree the Cambridge is more musical.

or not to pick on Emo let's say an Onkyo AVR mated to an Outlaw amp or Yamaha AVR mated to Adcom......etc, you get where I'm going.

I think that was Lush's original point.

H9

bikezappa

I like Revox equipment. You don't see it here much. They make some nice but very expensive equipment.

Here are some photos of their flagship intergrated amplifier, B 250 S. Also a photo of the B 208 remote that controls all of the B series equipment including the turntable!

F1nut

Let's not give the impression that all or even most integrated's are equal to or better than seperates.

These days, I believe that they are.

heiney9

F1nut wrote: »

These days, I believe that they are.

Perhaps at the price points your talking in the upper eschelon of gear. I don't think that is what Lush's statement was completely about.

There are some stellar integrated's within the company you've already listed. I'd put my seperates up against them all, and I'd bet some would and would not come out on top.

I am eagerly awaiting the release of the new Pass INT-30 which is the updated 30 wpc Aleph based single ended class A amp section mated to the passive line stage pre section. That would get me to come off my current set-up, but then again I doubt I'd spend $7K at this point in my journey.

As always YMMV and we all covet different things about our particular rigs. Some like mellow and laid back, some like dry and forward, some like absolute neutrality, some like midbass warmth, some like ultimate slam.......etc.

H9

dorokusai

I don't think the reader will leave the thread thinking that integrateds are the best choice ever Heiney....you'd think someone kicked your dog or something. I'd go integrated over seperates anyday.

LuSh

The reason I mention 'don't worry about the wattage' is because this forum (or certainly new members) appears to be obsessed with the numbers game. The numbers game is a fools game. The quicker you accept this the better off you will be. It's all cross marketing BS...the Wattage numbers, the laughable 'amp numbers'. Even the dreaded All Channels Driven test will steer you usually in the wrong direction if you take them seriously.

Wattage will be an important factor when dealing with volume (at high output levels) in a large room. If you're in a small or medium size room, or even large room but listen at modest levels don't worry about wattage. There are many more important factors. The pre-amp in most integrated's mentioned in this thread will destroy all AVR's and provide you with clearer bass definition, better separation and usually a much cleaner (and often forward) mid-range.

Often I will see threads about adding an amplifier for better sound...almost losing my mind I decide to turn off the computer and move along. An amplifier in these types of situations will only add to the bad sound, not help it. Yes, buying an amplifier in these types of situations will often make things worse...not better.

To assess yourself visit a local dealer and ask to borrow an Integrated amplifier for a weekend. It will certainly take a credit card but there are a few out there that will allow it. When you first turn the integrated on and hear the first notes then the vocals you'll understand and suddenly you'll get the goose bump factor. I can't help you after this occurs. Nothing can help you. You've now got the bug for life.

Zitro

Question: I've been told that a higher watt amp will sound better at low volumes than a lower powered one. Is this true? Living in an apartment, all I can really do is low-moderate level listening. Will a 200wpc amp sound considerably better at low levels than my 50wpc amp? Or will it not make much of a difference until the volume is cranked up?

heiney9

Zitro wrote: »

Question: I've been told that a higher watt amp will sound better at low volumes than a lower powered one. Is this true? Living in an apartment, all I can really do is low-moderate level listening. Will a 200wpc amp sound considerably better at low levels than my 50wpc amp? Or will it not make much of a difference until the volume is cranked up?

Yes and no, depends on how good the amp design is. There is no absolute answer to your question because you have to take into account the load (speakers), room size, etc. Amp design has everything to do with sound not the ultimate wattage.

30wpc works fine for me, better in every way than the 125wpc I used to have. But it's a much, much "better" amp. I have yet to find it's limits.

H9

pearsall001

The new NAD Masters Series M2 Direct Digital Integrated amp looks like a real stiff competitor in the hi-end Int. amp category. There's a very interesting read in the March Stereophile on the M2. I wonder if their on to something with this new technology?

Zitro

pearsall001 wrote: »

The new NAD Masters Series M2 Direct Digital Integrated amp looks like a real stiff competitor in the hi-end Int. amp category. There's a very interesting read in the March Stereophile on the M2. I wonder if their on to something with this new technology?

I saw this when it first came out, and it is very interesting indeed. Something to keep an eye on, although not something I can afford anytime soon lol. It's nice to think and plan for the future though

esowden

I know my system is mid-fi at best but I'll take my current Parasound pre/power combo over any of the JVC, Pioneer or Denon receivers I've owned in the past.

phipiper10

Not to hijack ...bbbuuut.......anyone with thoughts on this one? Looking for SS with HT bypass. MF is at the top of the list too.

Cary cai-1

http://www.upscaleaudio.com/updates/cai-1.htm

I can find only one or two reviews.

dorokusai

No Cary for me.

heiney9

Not a huge fan of 'digital' amps as a group. I'm sure there are some decent sounding digital amps, but in general I stay far away unless you tend to like, very dry, analytical, soulless music, IMO

H9

Face

heiney9 wrote: »

Not a huge fan of 'digital' amps as a group. I'm sure there are some decent sounding digital amps, but in general I stay far away unless you tend to like, very dry, analytical, soulless music, IMO

H9

A friend of mine had one for a bit, he wasn't a fan but did enjoy my W4S gear. YMMV.

pearsall001

That NAD M2 Direct Digital amp looks like a horse of a different color vs. the digital amps that are out now. New technology is on it's way. Could the old class A/AB stuff be on thin ice??? Time will tell. I always love the blanket statements about certain gear though.

heiney9

pearsall001 wrote: »

That NAD M2 Direct Digital amp looks like a horse of a different color vs. the digital amps that are out now. New technology is on it's way. Could the old class A/AB stuff be on thin ice??? Time will tell. I always love the blanket statements about certain gear though.

Not chance that A/AB will not become a relic..........I'm sure given enough time digital amps can be made to sound more "realistic". See the problem is instead of making things simpler and simpler they are getting more complicated. Lots of complicated parts in an audio component is not a good thing.

tonyb

Ya never know,would like to get an ear on that WFS gear though. I suppose they said the same thing back when Edison was **** around with lightbulbs,that they would never replace a good candle. Of coarse we have both today still but the point being is that no matter what new tech comes down the pike, the old tech is still used by many.

mhardy6647

heiney9 wrote: »

Not chance that A/AB will not become a relic....

Whoops, you lost me there with the two "nots". Do you mean that Class A and/or AB will or won't become a relic?

I'm betting on "won't" myself, although I suspect that before I die the Efficiency Police will make me stop using vacuum tube equipment, unless I can prove that I am also using it to heat my house.

TNRabbit

It boils down to the fact that you have more OPTIONS available to you with separates (biamping, upgrades, etc.). That's pretty much the main difference.

fatchowmein

markmarc wrote: »

I'm an absolute proponent of integrateds $$-wise as an excellent way to maximize sound quality. For example, one could go with matching used Musical Fidelity A3cr amp and and preamp for $1450 on Audiogon. Or, spend $900-1000 on the A3 integrated. I doubt short of the $25K Magico speakers (or even beyond) that anyone would be able to detect a difference in resolution.

I have three types of integrateds, SS the killer Sim Moon i7, a modified class D PS Audio C100, and the wonderful tube Vista i34. The space savings alone versus having 3 extra pieces alone makes life much easier. But, what I would have spent for the same quality in separates the money that instead stays in my pocket is awesome.

I'm looking at some integrated but I'm not finding any S/PDIF inputs. I'm guessing the mfg are expecting you to hook up a high end cd player but for $3000-$6000 I'm expecting a superior DAC not just RCA inputs.

Just saying...

Music Joe

pearsall001 wrote: »

That NAD M2 Direct Digital amp looks like a horse of a different color vs. the digital amps that are out now. New technology is on it's way. Could the old class A/AB stuff be on thin ice??? Time will tell. I always love the blanket statements about certain gear though.

Yeppers, pearsall001....Class A/AB aside, the review did spark some curiosity, with the measurements section results reminding me of some Tube/ SS hybrids. 8/4/2ohm loudspeaker impedance settings to minimize high frequency roll-off, lots of power, hint of square wave overshoot + ringing, low self noise.

Excerpts of JA’s review and measurements comment.

“I wasn’t sure what to expect from the M2. My experience of class-D amplifiers has been somewhat limited, but from that experience I anticipated taut, dry lows, somewhat threadbare highs, and a flattened soundstage. I got none of those things. Instead, when I fed the M2 the24-bit/88.2kHz master files of Cantus’s While You Are Alive, the soundstage was wide and deep, the high frequencies silky smooth, the lows warm and rich.”

“In fact I keep returning to the M2’s retrieval of subtle sonic cues in the mix, particularly of ambience. There was more there, there, in the immortal phrase coined by Sam Tellig channeling Gertrude Stein, compared to the Simaudio Moon Evolution W-7, itself no slouch in this area.”

“This review proved a more difficult undertaking than I had expected. My system has been locked into the paradigm of Source Component(s) to preamplifier to Power Amplifier(s) for the past three decades.
When I decided to review the NAD M2, I had not appreciated just how radically it would shift that paradigm.” The integration of a D/A processor and power amplifier into a single chassis eliminates the need for an actual preamplifier, instead substituting a digital-domain volume control and switching. Of course the M2 does have two analog inputs, but these are digitizedahead of the volume control, it doesn’t affect the picture I have painted of the M2 as a paradigm-breaking component.
Once I had changed my system approach, the NAD M2 provided many nights of extended listening, with one album leading to just one more. And one more. While the M2 is relatively large and heavy for a class-D amplifier, runs warmer than you might expect, it is not inexpensive, when fed high quality PCM data it offers sound quality that competes with that of the best conventional amplifiers. Given my long term skepticism about the sonic benefits of PWM amplifiers, that was not what I was expecting. NAD’s Master Series M2 is a winner all the way.”

“FFT analysis (fig 7) shows a similar improvement, suggesting that the M2 has true 20-bit dynamic range which is the state of the art of real-world digital decoding.”

“It is very satisfying to be able to discuss a components measured performance without scratching my head over some or another idiosyncrasy. The NAD M2 falls readily into that category.”

if only we can hear from someone that’s heard one.

geppy1

I am a fan of integrateds becasue I did the seperate thing for years and am tired of messing around with power cords and ICs. Having tried about 10 different integrateds head to head between $1000 and $3200 there ar some outstanding ones out there. The Bel Canto comes to mind as does the Vincent 236 but the bang for buck and outright "are you kidding me!!!" sound quality has to be in Exposure 2010S. I have tried to get rid of this thing and cannot find anything that sounds better in my system. I have had to have friends who worked in the CE biz when I did come and listen and they reach the same conclusions. It has received great reviews from many sources for its ability to reproduce music, period. There are alot of good seperates and integrateds out there for a reasonable price. You just have to weed through the soso stuff to find them. Your mileage may vary. keith