Integrated Amplifiers vs. Pre/Power

LuSh

I started visiting this forum many years ago. It was a fun time back then...many old faces. I remember great written dialogue with members such as F1NUT and jmierzur. I learned a lot back then, we use to debate theory; Source vs Speakers, the influence of room acoustics. In those earlier days 'esoteric cables, amplifiers and speakers' were for those folks at Audiogon. Now I see the anty has been risen and people have had a chance to play and purchase systems which are much grander then ever thought possible years ago. Theories were often explained.

I've had an opportunity to listen to so much gear over the last five years that I rarely read forums as I often find there is very little left to learn via written blogs. My ears have been much more informative. Which brings me to my RANT. I visit this forum from time to time and it just drives me bonkers reading what I sometimes read. Perhaps I should simply not read any of it and be on my way but after spending so much time here in the past it just burns me up inside reading how many mistakes are being made and some of the advice given.

I still visit this forum and it boggles my mind how many people here waste money on power amplifier's and crappy pre-amp's instead of buying a high quality integrated amplifier. What's the deal? Have we lost all audio virtues? Is the source outward not the most important aspect of ones system? How can one be so inclined to spend money on power and forget the importance of the pre amplifier? And before all the naysayers come out of the wood work suggesting a room is the most important ---- SILENCE. I'm not here to argue that.

For all those people wanting better sound from their LSi7's, 9's. 15's...instead of buying mid-fi quality amplifiers and AVR pre-amps do yourself a favor and listen to a high quality integrated. You will thank me later. Names to look into....Musical Fidelity, Krell, Bryston, SimAudio, Classe, Naim, PrimaLuna, McIntosh. In nearly all cases these will sound better then the crappy pre-amp/processer/mid-fi amplifier you're thinking of purchasing. Many higher end brands allow Home Theatre by-pass as well which is excellent in integrating with an existing Home Theatre receiver if your system is dual purpose. I've used them for years. Don't worry about the wattage...it won't be a factor at this level. Forget the research also. The mid-fi companies will let you read testimonials and read white papers...all meaningless if you can't listen to the gear. So don't read about the names I've mentioned. Find a dealer and listen. It will open your eyes and please your ears. How a 200-400 Watt amplifier is to sound good through a $700 AV receiver is well...just take my advice and listen. You will quickly realize how poorly you've distributed your funds.


END RANT.

dorokusai

I love integrated amplifiers....its most certainly an unsung hero of high fidelity.

polkatese

Lush, didn't you at one time had Krell 400xi Integrated?

I still have mine. Still driving my LSi15 along with MIT S3 throughout and a REL Storm III to help push the bottom end. Still happy with how it sounds.

LuSh

Hi Polkatese,

Yes I used a Krell 400xi for a couple of years. I thought it was fun and had amazing synergy with the Polk Audio, Aerial Acoustic and Dynaudio speakers I had used it with. The Totem/Krell was a mismatch. I've since moved onto another SimAudio...which is heading out the door in favor of a PrimaLuna Dialogue II (all these years and I'm finally moving too tubes).

Conradicles

LuSh wrote: »

it boggles my mind how many people here waste money on power amplifier's and crappy pre-amp's instead of buying a high quality integrated amplifier. What's the deal?

Now what does one do if they enjoy audio but can not afford what you are describing?

heiney9

LuSh wrote: »

Names to look into....Musical Fidelity, Krell, Bryston, SimAudio, Classe, Naim, PrimaLuna, McIntosh. In nearly all cases these will sound better then the crappy pre-amp/processer/mid-fi amplifier you're thinking of purchasing.

You forgot one............

Pass Labs INT-150 and the new INT-30.

You are preaching to the choir how anyone can evaluate an amp using an AVR as a pre is beyond me.

H9

Zitro

Funny, I was going to post a thread about a similar topic but decided against it. I still don't understand why there is such a hype over separates vs integrated. The concept of an integrated amp doesn't logically seem to have any glaring deficiencies over a pre/power combo in the SQ department.

LuSh

Conradicles:

A used piece or demo model is often as inexpensive as the pre/power mid-fi option. Or do what the rest of us did and save.

heiney9

Zitro wrote: »

Funny, I was going to post a thread about a similar topic but decided against it. I still don't understand why there is such a hype over separates vs integrated. The concept of an integrated amp doesn't logically seem to have any glaring deficiencies over a pre/power combo in the SQ department.

I would put my separates against any integrated. You can have integrated's that don;t sound all that good as well as separates that don't sound all that good. Not all integrated's are the best of the best. The integrated is only as good as the pre-amp section and this is where a lot inexpensive lower end integrated's fall apart.

It is interesting because there are some killer integrated amps out there that do sound better than some higher end separates. It's another one of those personal preference's as you can get the same kind of enjoyment from both types of set-ups and I agree w/Lush in the integrated vs. separate amp w/AVR for a pre. YUCK.

H9

Zitro

Integrated amplifiers are usually cheaper and do have everything separates do, in one box. I usually stick to the Occam's Razor idea of simpler being sometimes the best. The only perk to separates I can see is you can upgrade one piece (pre or power amp) where as integrated, its all one piece (unless you use the integrated as a pre and connect a power amp). I'm sure there are crappy separates and integrated amps, as well as good ones.

Looking at NAD's offerings, to get a 150 wpc separate system, you'd have to buy a $900 preamp and a $1200 power amp (total of $2100). However, they have a 150 wpc integrated amp for $1300. Is the SQ difference between the pre/power rig and the integrated really worth $800 more, when that could be spent on better speakers or something else? Doesn't make sense.

Not preaching, this is only my admittedly naive opinion. I am pretty new to this hifi game, so someone in the know feel free to edumacate me

heiney9

All integrated's are not created equal so the whole Occam's razor idea is not an absolute. I've seen many integrated's that are much more complicated than a straight forward pair of separates. If that's the prevailing POV then a receiver should be even better because it does everything all in one "box".

Many, many mid priced integrated's don;t sound any better than separates just because of the perceived simplicity. However, there are some great integreated's out there that are well worth getting in place of separates.

H9

mhardy6647

I've always liked and almost always used stereo integrated amps (vacuum tube or soiled state). I did have a short foray into fleapower using single-ended 2A3 "monoblock" power amps and a separate preamp (all DIY or kitbuilt), but I am back to integrateds on all of the systems in the house that are actually in use, except one in the basement.

heiney9

Let's put it this way, the IDEA of an integrated amps seems simpler, the EXECUTION and design of an integrated amp usually is anything but simpler...........it's usually more complicated than a really good pair of separates. Exceptions of course do exist on both sides.

Complication usually is done as a compromise or as a way of cutting corners.

H9

Face

I'm divided on adding W4S's dedicated pre to my ST-500, the W4S integrated amp, or forgoing a pre altogether with a Ayon CDP with a built in volume control...

The W4S dedicated pre does look better on paper, but by time you add another pair of interconnects, another PC, etc... is the difference really audible?

polkatese

Two good looking integrated:

http://www.musicalfidelity.com/products/M6-Series/M6i/m6i.asp

http://www.arcam.co.uk/products,fmj,integrated-amplifiers,A38.htm

no doubt these two will kick as mid-market separates.

Zitro

This one has my interest...I know I'm biased and many feel NAD is only mid-fi, but I still want to hear it. Same price as the aforementioned Musical Fidelity.

http://nadelectronics.com/products/masters-series/M3-Dual-Mono-Integrated-Amplifier

I have heard way more integrated amps than separates so I can't really formulate an opinion either way yet. I will probably stick to integrated until I hear a separate system that offers better performance at the same price as an integrated.

LuSh

Zitro,

NAD is great. Fun and exciting. yes further refinement can be had as you throw more money at 2 channel but overall very musical and huge bang for the buck. I use to own a NAD320BEE integrated and quite frankly it is one piece that really made me smile.

Having said that, the Master series suffers from one thing and one thing only. Brand reputation. If you put another name/logo on the front people would be writing great things. Never discredit a piece because of it's name. I have heard the M3 however not in my own home. Having said that If I were interested in SS that would certainly be up there. Dynaudio uses them quite a bit at shows. It's not uncommon to see a NAD system connected to very very expensive Dynaudio's at European shows. Sure, distribution of both lines certainly dictates what will be used but by the same token Dynaudio wouldn't use amplification that would show their product in the wrong light. Dynaudio has the name and cache and price points that make even 'high end' audiophiles happy. NAD has found its niche and will be hard pressed to make a difference in the high end world but ultimately it has very little to do with performance.

heiney9

Probably out of your price range, but this is one serious integrated I would consider if I was looking to "replace" separates.

http://www.soundstage.com/equipment/passlabs_int150.htm

H9

tonyb

While I can agree to much of what you say, especially on the amp with a 700 buck receiver thing, many are not as experienced in audio as some of us are. Some need to take the long way around so they can hear for themselves or simply do not have the cash to invest,or even think it's worth it. All of us have been on that bottom rung in our journey at one point, and thats what it is,a journey. That said, I've been trying to wrestle that MF Tri-vista 300 int. from Joe, even paid someone to hit him with a car awhile back,:) damn guy just keeps getting up. Some day.....:D

Zitro

LuSh wrote: »

Zitro,

NAD is great. Fun and exciting. yes further refinement can be had as you throw more money at 2 channel but overall very musical and huge bang for the buck. I use to own a NAD320BEE integrated and quite frankly it is one piece that really made me smile.

Having said that, the Master series suffers from one thing and one thing only. Brand reputation. If you put another name/logo on the front people would be writing great things. Never discredit a piece because of it's name. I have heard the M3 however not in my own home. Having said that If I were interested in SS that would certainly be up there. Dynaudio uses them quite a bit at shows. It's not uncommon to see a NAD system connected to very very expensive Dynaudio's at European shows. Sure, distribution of both lines certainly dictates what will be used but by the same token Dynaudio wouldn't use amplification that would show their product in the wrong light. Dynaudio has the name and cache and price points that make even 'high end' audiophiles happy. NAD has found its niche and will be hard pressed to make a difference in the high end world but ultimately it has very little to do with performance.

Thanks for the helpful info and support. I was unaware of the use of NAD at shows; figured their reputation wasn't strong enough. I'm glad you agree with me though, because I love my C320BEE and I feel it's a tremendous amp for the money. I settled on NAD because their products sound very musical to me.

Am I the only one who finds it disappointing that it seems many people judge products on their price tags instead of doing what we are here for: listening?

pearsall001

A lot of Integrated amps, separates, & AVR's are up to the task of fullfilling your needs. I have no qualms what so ever with my NAD AVR pulling double duty for HT & used as my pre for two channel. I've ran thru a few separate pre's w/ HT bypass (tube & SS) & the NAD AVR won out in the end. NAD's philosophy of "Music First" is very accurate as far as my listening goes.

smglbrth

Lush - I totally agree with what you're saying. Integrated is how I really got into this "game". The old Philips FA960 I used to own was pretty awesome, a piece I should have kept. The guy I sold it to pretty much fried it by overdriving (evidentally when he went to try and get it fixed the techs found the output transistors melted). I think I paid around $8-$900 new, and that was in 1989! Had it for years.

Music Joe

this one just got a good review in S'phile >nad masters-series M2-Direct-Digital-Amplifier<
has anyone heard one yet... is it even out there yet?

BottomFeeder

Just got a Bel Canto eVo2i integrated from a member here & baby, I'm diggin' it!

I just wanted 1 piece instead of 2 as I'm limited on space & this fits the bill terrifically.

F1nut

Hey Lush.

Lots of great integrated amps out there. You never have to worry about synergy issues (a huge plus) or the extra interconnects needed for separates.

fatchowmein

Would you need more sensitive speakers to go with an integrated amp?

On one side, I see recommendations for 200W+ for the LSi series and on the other is the high quality integrated don't-worry-about-wattage camp.

I'm not trying to start an argument, just confused, and would be highly appreciative of additional information and opinions so I'll have a general idea of what to mate my LSi9's to one day (currently powered by a HK3485) and I think this forum benefits more from these types of discussions.

Thx

Zitro

fatchowmein wrote: »

Would you need more sensitive speakers to go with an integrated amp?

On one side, I see recommendations for 200W+ for the LSi series and on the other is the high quality integrated don't-worry-about-wattage camp.

I'm not trying to start an argument, just confused, and would be highly appreciative of additional information and opinions so I'll have a general idea of what to mate my LSi9's to one day (currently powered by a HK3485) and I think this forum benefits more from these types of discussions.

Thx

I honestly don't know. I have been told the LSi's need power to, but my modest 50wpc NAD integrated really makes my LSi7's sing. Granted, the dynamic headroom on the NAD is fantastic and NAD's are typically underrated power-wise, but still, it's only a 50 watt amp. Curiosity makes me wonder what it would sound like hooked up to 150-200wpc though...

F1nut

fatchowmein wrote: »

Would you need more sensitive speakers to go with an integrated amp?

On one side, I see recommendations for 200W+ for the LSi series and on the other is the high quality integrated don't-worry-about-wattage camp.

Somehow you've got the wrong impression that integrated amps are less powerful than separates....not true.

Here's a quick list of some high end integrated amps and their rated power...in no order.

Musical Fidelity kW 500 510wpc @ 8 ohm
BAT VK-300X 150wpc @ 8 ohm
Conrad-Johnson 185wpc @ 8 ohm
McIntosh 6900 210wpc @ 8 ohm
ASR Emitter II 490wpc @ 4 ohm
Wyred 4 Sound STI-500 250wpc @ 8 ohm
Wyred 4 Sound STI-1000 570wpc @ 8 ohm
Krell FBI 300wpc @ 8 ohm
AMR AM77 180wpc @ 8 ohm
Plinius 9200 200wpc @ 8 ohm

fatchowmein

F1nut wrote: »

Somehow you've got the wrong impression that integrated amps are less powerful than separates....not true.

Oh, I was looking at what Lush said...

LuSh wrote: »

Don't worry about the wattage...it won't be a factor at this level.

but mostly because I have my low-fi hat on.

Thanks, Jesse.

markmarc

I'm an absolute proponent of integrateds $$-wise as an excellent way to maximize sound quality. For example, one could go with matching used Musical Fidelity A3cr amp and and preamp for $1450 on Audiogon. Or, spend $900-1000 on the A3 integrated. I doubt short of the $25K Magico speakers (or even beyond) that anyone would be able to detect a difference in resolution.

I have three types of integrateds, SS the killer Sim Moon i7, a modified class D PS Audio C100, and the wonderful tube Vista i34. The space savings alone versus having 3 extra pieces alone makes life much easier. But, what I would have spent for the same quality in separates the money that instead stays in my pocket is awesome.

heiney9

Let's not give the impression that all or even most integrated's are equal to or better than seperates. In many instances to hit a particular price point integrated's are a compromise and it's usually in the pre-amp/input section.

Integrated's can serve a great purpose and with proper research you can certainly get an integrated that outperforms similar seperates but the way people are going on gives the impression they are always better.

Just like a reciever there can be compromises built in, not always but many times.

YMMV

H9