AVR setup using Audyssey MultiEQ

Ianborg

When I run the auto setup with my Marantz SR7002, I find that the test tone for my sub (DSW Pro 500) sounds quiet and when its done running the setup it sets my sub to -10 db even tho it clearly isnt the right amount of bass. (I like the way it sounds at +8 db). Is this only because I love loud bass alot, or am I doing something wrong here. Anyone have this issue????

kuntasensei

Well, as far as "I like the way it sounds at +8dB" goes, that's preference vs. reference. However, if Audyssey is trimming your sub by -10dB, I recommend the following:

1) Make sure you're putting the mic on a tripod, not setting it on your couch. I can't stress this enough. If you place the mic on your couch or even on the back headrest of your couch, you aren't going to get accurate results. You want the mic at ear level for at least positions 1-3, making sure that this puts the capsule of the mic slightly above the headrests of your seats (because reflections/absorptions of headrests can alter the frequency reading). The height of the remaining positions can be altered slightly to give you a good generalized equalization based on your speakers' vertical dispersion pattern (though this won't vary much with most speakers, at least in typical rooms).

2) Back the gain on your subwoofer itself down a little. Audyssey's having to trim the sub down because the gain on your sub is higher than it needs to be, which can also cause issues with MultEQ's frequency detection.

3) When placing the mic, make sure none of your mic positions are within 8-12" of any walls. Placing the mic too close to room boundaries can make it read exaggerated bass due to boundary gain, which will make it think it needs to cut the subwoofer down because it's too loud.

4) Do positions 4-6 a foot or two further into the room, away from your back wall. Ideally, you want to do positions 1-3 at your center listening position, then about 2 feet to the left of that and 2 feet to the right. Then for positions 4-6, mirror those mic placements with the mic a foot or more further into the room. I've had good success with doing 1-3 with the tripod at the back of my couch's seats (where my head would be) and 4-6 with the tripod on the floor, flush with the front of the couch. This gives Audyssey data from further away from the back wall, which will level out any exaggerated bass and give it a clearer picture of your room's acoustics.

5) Do all available positions. If your AVR lets you do 6, do all 6. If it lets you do 8, do all 8, even if you don't have 8 listening positions. For 7-8, I place the mic staggered in the middle of 1-3 and 4-6 so it gives me a smoother equalization for most of my seating area.

6) If your subwoofer has a subsonic filter, defeat it before running Audyssey then re-enable it afterward. This gives Audyssey data on the actual behavior of the enclosure/driver itself, without the induced rolloff of the subsonic filter. If your sub doesn't have one, don't worry about this.

7) If your AVR has a LPF of LFE setting, set it to 120Hz so the full LFE channel is passed to your subwoofer. Audyssey doesn't change this and some AVRs default to 80Hz for this setting, which is incorrect and truncates LFE audio.

8) Audyssey may detect your individual speakers' performance as lower than their spec'd response. This is especially important if it detects any of your speakers as full range/Large, since few speakers can actually run well that way. I suggest changing any speakers set below 80Hz by your AVR post-Audyssey so that they are all at 80Hz. The caveat here is that you never want to set a speaker LOWER than what was detected (i.e. setting a speaker that read 100Hz down to 80Hz) because Audyssey stops equalizing below the -3dB point that it detects. The reason you want to change this to 80Hz is because MultEQ does far higher resolution equalization on your subwoofer than on the main channels. It will also free up headroom on your AVR since it's offloading the bass duties to your powered subwoofer.

9) The subwoofer tone during calibration will be pretty quiet, so it's crucial to make sure you have any potential sources of low frequency noise turned off during calibration (i.e. A/C units, refrigerators, etc.). Most AVRs will change to a louder tone if they have problems reading Audyssey's initial quiet tone for the subwoofer, but you want to give MultEQ as much unaltered data to work with as possible. It's very much a garbage-in/garbage-out proposition.

10) Having said all of this, you may find that you just like overly bloated bass. Most people aren't accustomed to properly flat subwoofer response, so the initial impression may be that it is lacking somehow. Give yourself a bit of time so you can critically listen to the results and get used to it. If after a few days you still don't like it, change it. It's your system, and you may just not like the way proper reference sounds, especially if you listen at lower levels.

Ianborg

Wow. Great response. Can't wait to run this when I get home! Thanks so much! I'll post tomorrow with my results.

Huck344

kuntasensei - That was an awesome response. It wasn't even my question, but I learned so much from your reply. Thanks so much for taking the time to write all this out. I will have some tweaking to do tonight!!!

allstock

Go to the AV science forum and search "official audyssey thread". More info than you'd ever want to know.

kuntasensei

allstock wrote: »

Go to the AV science forum and search "official audyssey thread". More info than you'd ever want to know.

Yeah, can you tell I've spent a lot of time there? I wrote the Audyssey FAQ for the Onkyo TX-SR705 over at AVS.

allstock

kuntasensei wrote: »

Yeah, can you tell I've spent a lot of time there? I wrote the Audyssey FAQ for the Onkyo TX-SR705 over at AVS.

I thought you might have been there as soon as I saw "reference vs preference"!
A long read for sure, but taking the time to do it "right" made night and day difference in my HT.:D

Derrick4Real

kuntasensei wrote: »

Well, as far as "I like the way it sounds at +8dB" goes, that's preference vs. reference. However, if Audyssey is trimming your sub by -10dB, I recommend the following:

1) Make sure you're putting the mic on a tripod, not setting it on your couch. I can't stress this enough. If you place the mic on your couch or even on the back headrest of your couch, you aren't going to get accurate results. You want the mic at ear level for at least positions 1-3, making sure that this puts the capsule of the mic slightly above the headrests of your seats (because reflections/absorptions of headrests can alter the frequency reading). The height of the remaining positions can be altered slightly to give you a good generalized equalization based on your speakers' vertical dispersion pattern (though this won't vary much with most speakers, at least in typical rooms).

2) Back the gain on your subwoofer itself down a little. Audyssey's having to trim the sub down because the gain on your sub is higher than it needs to be, which can also cause issues with MultEQ's frequency detection.

3) When placing the mic, make sure none of your mic positions are within 8-12" of any walls. Placing the mic too close to room boundaries can make it read exaggerated bass due to boundary gain, which will make it think it needs to cut the subwoofer down because it's too loud.

4) Do positions 4-6 a foot or two further into the room, away from your back wall. Ideally, you want to do positions 1-3 at your center listening position, then about 2 feet to the left of that and 2 feet to the right. Then for positions 4-6, mirror those mic placements with the mic a foot or more further into the room. I've had good success with doing 1-3 with the tripod at the back of my couch's seats (where my head would be) and 4-6 with the tripod on the floor, flush with the front of the couch. This gives Audyssey data from further away from the back wall, which will level out any exaggerated bass and give it a clearer picture of your room's acoustics.

5) Do all available positions. If your AVR lets you do 6, do all 6. If it lets you do 8, do all 8, even if you don't have 8 listening positions. For 7-8, I place the mic staggered in the middle of 1-3 and 4-6 so it gives me a smoother equalization for most of my seating area.

6) If your subwoofer has a subsonic filter, defeat it before running Audyssey then re-enable it afterward. This gives Audyssey data on the actual behavior of the enclosure/driver itself, without the induced rolloff of the subsonic filter. If your sub doesn't have one, don't worry about this.

7) If your AVR has a LPF of LFE setting, set it to 120Hz so the full LFE channel is passed to your subwoofer. Audyssey doesn't change this and some AVRs default to 80Hz for this setting, which is incorrect and truncates LFE audio.

8) Audyssey may detect your individual speakers' performance as lower than their spec'd response. This is especially important if it detects any of your speakers as full range/Large, since few speakers can actually run well that way. I suggest changing any speakers set below 80Hz by your AVR post-Audyssey so that they are all at 80Hz. The caveat here is that you never want to set a speaker LOWER than what was detected (i.e. setting a speaker that read 100Hz down to 80Hz) because Audyssey stops equalizing below the -3dB point that it detects. The reason you want to change this to 80Hz is because MultEQ does far higher resolution equalization on your subwoofer than on the main channels. It will also free up headroom on your AVR since it's offloading the bass duties to your powered subwoofer.

9) The subwoofer tone during calibration will be pretty quiet, so it's crucial to make sure you have any potential sources of low frequency noise turned off during calibration (i.e. A/C units, refrigerators, etc.). Most AVRs will change to a louder tone if they have problems reading Audyssey's initial quiet tone for the subwoofer, but you want to give MultEQ as much unaltered data to work with as possible. It's very much a garbage-in/garbage-out proposition.

10) Having said all of this, you may find that you just like overly bloated bass. Most people aren't accustomed to properly flat subwoofer response, so the initial impression may be that it is lacking somehow. Give yourself a bit of time so you can critically listen to the results and get used to it. If after a few days you still don't like it, change it. It's your system, and you may just not like the way proper reference sounds, especially if you listen at lower levels.

This should be stickified! I am going to do my 607 this weekend and this is a great help.

mantis

Ianborg wrote: »

When I run the auto setup with my Marantz SR7002, I find that the test tone for my sub (DSW Pro 500) sounds quiet and when its done running the setup it sets my sub to -10 db even tho it clearly isnt the right amount of bass. (I like the way it sounds at +8 db). Is this only because I love loud bass alot, or am I doing something wrong here. Anyone have this issue????

This is the very reason why you think it doesn't work right. You are not use to hearing correct bass. Running the bass hot only clouds up the rest of the system. If thats how you like it then don't use room correction. Juice up the sub and rears and have it your way.

thsmith

mantis wrote: »

This is the very reason why you think it doesn't work right. You are not use to hearing correct bass. Running the bass hot only clouds up the rest of the system. If thats how you like it then don't use room correction. Juice up the sub and rears and have it your way.

+1

OP really needs to calibrate his sub before running Audessey IMO.

Aud looks at the highest freq in your sub's range and matches that to the mains. Problem is you have dips that also get lowered, in some cases as much as 6-8 db.

If you want to learn more go over to hometheatershack.com and read about REW

kuntasensei

One thing that will help with those who prefer hotter bass is running with Dynamic EQ on if your AVR supports it, especially if you listen significantly lower than reference level. Dynamic EQ gradually increases bass response and surround presence as you get lower down from reference to maintain the intended sound of the original reference level mix. It actually works quite well at maintaining a full sound without having to crank your system, and it doesn't limit dynamic range.

But ultimately, if you like hotter bass, turn it up the way you like it! I do recommend giving yourself time to critically evaluate and get used to the way that Audyssey's calibration sounds before you tinker with it, because you might find that you hear more detailed bass with more distinct tones once you've given yourself some time with it.

Ianborg

So regarding kuntasensei's post before. If I have my subwoofer LPF set to 80 on my AVR, then that may be the reason I get barely any response out of my sub when I run Audyssey MultiEQ. Will setting my LPF to 120hz fix this issue because it will let the full range through????

kuntasensei

Ianborg wrote: »

So regarding kuntasensei's post before. If I have my subwoofer LPF set to 80 on my AVR, then that may be the reason I get barely any response out of my sub when I run Audyssey MultiEQ. Will setting my LPF to 120hz fix this issue because it will let the full range through????

No. The LPF of LFE setting on your AVR only controls the filter on the LFE channel - not redirected bass from the other channels. It should, however, be set to 120Hz so that you're passing the full bandwidth of the LFE channel to your subwoofer. The LFE channel is brickwall filtered at 120Hz (which is why it's the .1 in 5.1). That said, most mixers don't place much above 80Hz in the LFE channel anyway, and the biggest reason you want to set the LPF of LFE to 120Hz is so you don't attenuate any of the harmonics above 80Hz that lend deep bass its perceived tone.

The individual crossovers for each speaker are what controls the transition from each speaker to the subwoofer. Some AVRs with Audyssey (especially pre-2009 Onkyos - not sure about your Marantz) have a tendency to set any speaker that extends below 80Hz as "full range", which gives you no bass redirection to the subwoofer whatsoever. This is a choice made by the AVR manufacturer, not Audyssey (who have told manufacturers to use 40Hz as the threshold) and MultEQ simply reports the speaker's -3dB point to the AVR's software so it can decide where to set the crossover. So after Audyssey runs, make sure you change all of your crossovers to 80Hz, with LPF of LFE at 120Hz.

howardru

Nice thread....explains a lot.....Time to run that setup again.

howardru

Ok...so maybe this is the most basic question, but I have an Onkyo TX-SR707.

Does all of this Audyssey room equilization only work when my audio is setup for Audyssy DSX mode on the receiver or do all the settings and values apply to all THX and Dolby modes that I'm capable of switching to for listening modes???

My guess is the answer is yes (since Audyssey setup adjusts all the crossovers) but I just want to be sure.

Thanks

chiptouz

Thank you for one of the most informative posts that I have ever read.

kuntasensei

howardru wrote: »

Ok...so maybe this is the most basic question, but I have an Onkyo TX-SR707.

Does all of this Audyssey room equilization only work when my audio is setup for Audyssy DSX mode on the receiver or do all the settings and values apply to all THX and Dolby modes that I'm capable of switching to for listening modes???

My guess is the answer is yes (since Audyssey setup adjusts all the crossovers) but I just want to be sure.

Thanks

Audyssey's equalization works across all modes (except things like DIRECT, obviously). The only difference on the Onkyos is that for THX modes, Audyssey's slight rolloff of the highs is changed to flat equalization so that THX's rolloff can be applied instead. The two methods of rolling off the highs slightly for listening in small rooms are not that different, however, and were developed by the same person (Professor Tomlinson Holman - the "TH" in THX and chief technical officer of Audyssey).

kuntasensei

howardru wrote: »

Ok...so maybe this is the most basic question, but I have an Onkyo TX-SR707.

Does all of this Audyssey room equilization only work when my audio is setup for Audyssy DSX mode on the receiver or do all the settings and values apply to all THX and Dolby modes that I'm capable of switching to for listening modes???

My guess is the answer is yes (since Audyssey setup adjusts all the crossovers) but I just want to be sure.

Thanks

One more thing: Audyssey itself doesn't adjust the crossovers. Audyssey's software determines each speaker's -3dB point and passes that information to the software provided by the AVR manufacturer. In other words, they gather the data and what your AVR maker does with it is their business. That's why older Onkyos tended to set any speaker that went below 80Hz to full range, even if it wasn't. Audyssey had recommended to them that 40Hz be the threshold for full range, which it should be in newer Onkyos. That said, you shouldn't necessarily stick with the crossovers that your AVR determines. Setting all of your channels to 80Hz is often preferable since that hands off deep bass to your subwoofer, freeing up power on your AVR since it isn't driving the deep bass and also handing off bass duties to the subwoofer, which receives a much higher resolution equalization than the main channels. The result is clearer mids and highs, more available headroom for transients, and better bass response.

The only caveat is that you don't want to set any crossover LOWER than what Audyssey's software determined, since that point is where Audyssey stops equalizing that channel.

howardru

kuntasensei wrote: »

One more thing: Audyssey itself doesn't adjust the crossovers. Audyssey's software determines each speaker's -3dB point and passes that information to the software provided by the AVR manufacturer. In other words, they gather the data and what your AVR maker does with it is their business. That's why older Onkyos tended to set any speaker that went below 80Hz to full range, even if it wasn't. Audyssey had recommended to them that 40Hz be the threshold for full range, which it should be in newer Onkyos. That said, you shouldn't necessarily stick with the crossovers that your AVR determines. Setting all of your channels to 80Hz is often preferable since that hands off deep bass to your subwoofer, freeing up power on your AVR since it isn't driving the deep bass and also handing off bass duties to the subwoofer, which receives a much higher resolution equalization than the main channels. The result is clearer mids and highs, more available headroom for transients, and better bass response.

The only caveat is that you don't want to set any crossover LOWER than what Audyssey's software determined, since that point is where Audyssey stops equalizing that channel.

Thank you guys! I'm learning a lot here... I'm a computer guy and networking guy so please pardon my ignorance.

It is a brand new Onkyo TX-SR707 so I expect it has the latest firmware.

So....with all that said I did re-run the Audyssey setup this weekend and used the placement chart on the Audyssey site for the 6 locations (Which I originally thought could be any of the 6 locations in my family room/kitchen where the test points could be 25 to 30 feet apart but learned they should all be on the primary seating area (sofa) within a few feet of each other)....

So I have two Polk VM30s and a center VM20 (and sub right behind the center). These apparently have the same timbre according to Polk and the VM 20 is about 1/3 of a VM30. To create a continouous sound field across the front, I would have expected Audyssey to characterize these pretty much the same and the crossover to be the same however....

Audyssey set the crossover on my VM30s to 70Hz (which I then manually changed to 80Hz) but the VM 20 Center was set at 120Hz crossover. Polk Audio support told me to set them ALL to 80Hz. However everything you guys say is to NEVER change the crossover DOWN. I also noticed that Audyseey set the power to -10dB on the center which I found too quiet for the center based on the surround volume.

So a few questions if I may pick your brains.

1. Should I keep the VM 20 center at 120Hz to preserve the equilization or set them to 80Hz as Polk said? My sub works great and provides real bass.

2. Does adjusting the dB level of the center affect any of this? I don't want to have to strive to hear the center speaker with the surround in my ears (which is right behind us on the rear wall where the sofa is). I guess I could lower the rear R/C speakers.

Last question on subwoofer placement

My sub has settings for corner and 0,90,180 and 270 phase. When I run the Audio CD test tone from Bink, I cannot tell ANY difference at ALL with any of the phases with any of the tones at any frequency! Is it because the sub is in the corner (now sits on an 18" x 18" MDF board 6" inches out from the corner on 2 sides). All settings sound exactly the same to me.

Is it me or the does this change when listening to music rather than test tones??


Here's photos of the main setup
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3293653/New%20Home%20Theatre%20001.JPG
(I can't do much about moving the cabinet in the way of the left...compromise with the wife)

Here's a photo of the Rear and Surrounds
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/3293653/Speakers%20003.JPG

howardru

Oh great kuntasensei,

Would love your response to my last post!

Thanks in advance

kuntasensei

1. I would try re-positioning your center channel or the first mic position and re-running Audyssey to see if you can get your center to read at a lower crossover point. If your center isn't angled toward where your ears would be at the seats, do so. Make sure that your center is pulled all the way to the front of your AV stand so that you don't get off-axis reflections off of the stand itself that will color the sound. Likewise, if you can push the TV slightly back away from it, do it, because the TV itself is a big reflective surface that can color the sound slightly. Also, make sure you're placing the top of the mic at the level where your ears would be, especially at the first mic position. If it still comes out near 120Hz, you can try lowering it to 80 and just seeing how it sounds to you. That's what really matters.

2. You can adjust the center up if you want, but that takes you away from strict level matching. On my system, I found that Audyssey tended to set my rear surrounds slightly too high, and that dropping them each by 0.5dB made them blend better with the side surrounds. Again, that's a matter of preference vs. reference, but ultimately it's your system so do what sounds best to you. As close as your rears are to your seat, you're going to have a hard time getting a good balance from them, especially if your initial mic position is near the left side of the couch, because the person sitting to the right will always get way higher levels from the right rear. You may be able to mitigate this slightly by angling the tweeter on the right rear surround as far as it will go toward the left of the room before running Audyssey (and vice-versa with the left rear surround), but those rear surrounds really should have been placed either above your head more or (I know this sounds crazy, but it works) slightly below and behind the couch so that you're getting the sound from the rears indirectly. That said, your room is a good example of one that seems more suited to a well-placed 5.1 setup than 7.1 with the rears awkwardly placed.

3. If you can't tell a difference in subwoofer phase, your best bet is to leave it at 0 degrees. Audyssey changes the equalization in the time domain, so it should mitigate any minor phase issues you have, but changing phase after running Audyssey will play hell with the equalization it gave you. 9 times out of 10, 0 degrees is the correct phase setting, because the speaker distance settings help make sure there's solid phase correlation between the subwoofer and mains at your seat.

howardru

Kunatasensei,

Thank you so much for the detailed response.

So regarding #1, if I change the crossover from 120Hz to 80Hz, will that completely disable Audyssey from working? I thought I saw that if you LOWER to crossover, all bets are off and to NEVER do that. Quite honestly, with the L/C/R set at 80Hz it all sounded pretty good to me watching TV which is 90% of my usage.

#2. I just put those REAR L/R in a few weekends ago and I tried to pick a height that wouldn't be impacted by any new furniture we bought, or any new wall decorations that my wife may decide looks better. Initial reading for Audyssey was originally in "my spot" right in front of the rear right speaker. This weekend, I made it in the middle of the couch and did the 2nd reading to the right of that (in front of the rear right). I'll try lowering it a few DB or so.

Thanks
Howard

kuntasensei

Changing the crossover for the center won't completely disable Audyssey or negate its effects. It just means that you won't have equalized sound in that channel from 80-120Hz. So long as there aren't any major acoustic issues in that range for that particular channel, no big deal... so if it sounds good to you that way, stick with it.