Will 7.1 make 5.1 sound weaker?

digitalvideo

kuntasensei how could I create a true theatrical format/theatrical presentation in my 27x27 room or even a setup you have with the current setup I have plus adding in some additional speakers and electronics?

My current 7.1 setup:

Pioneer Elite Pro-151fd plasma
Pioneer Elite SC-05 a/v
Sunfire Cinema Grand Signature 400 7.1 amp
Oppo bdp-83
Comcast HD cable box
Balanced Power Technology BP-3.5 Signature Plus power conditioner

Polk RTi A9 front towers L/R
Polk CSi A6 center
Polk FXi A6 sides L/R
Polk RTi A3 rears L/R
SVS PB 12 Ultra sub

kuntasensei

I'm not really sure what you're asking. Looks like you have all the equipment you'd need and damn nice equipment at that). Just make sure you have your speakers properly placed and dialed in so the levels match, and you should get a very cohesive soundfield.

My only caveat is if you're running your side surrounds in dipole mode, try them as bipoles instead. Dipoles work great in a 5.1 setup and may sound perfectly fine in a 7.1 setup, but having them in dipole mode prevents proper cross-channel pans to rear surrounds since dipoles alter the phase to sound diffuse.

digitalvideo

kuntasensei wrote: »

I'm not really sure what you're asking. Looks like you have all the equipment you'd need and damn nice equipment at that). Just make sure you have your speakers properly placed and dialed in so the levels match, and you should get a very cohesive soundfield.

My only caveat is if you're running your side surrounds in dipole mode, try them as bipoles instead. Dipoles work great in a 5.1 setup and may sound perfectly fine in a 7.1 setup, but having them in dipole mode prevents proper cross-channel pans to rear surrounds since dipoles alter the phase to sound diffuse.

What I meant was how can I get 9.1 or 9.2 sound like you have in my system for my room. What other speakers and equipment will I need to add and how would I connect it?

wutadumsn23

In order to run 9.1 or 9.2, you have to have an AVR that supports it, the SC-05 does not. The AVR has to have the ability to process Dolby Digital PLIIz, which is the the codec that has the "height" or "presence" speakers up front. You would wire it up just like you would any other speaker, to the back of the AVR. You could run a second sub with a Y splitter from the sub out on your AVR for 7.2, but that is the best you can do with the SC-05, since it doesn't support 9.1 or 9.2.

-Jeff

digitalvideo

I also want to move up to higher end speakers for my main room for a better soundstage and move my Polk system to my basement. I might just sell my Polk system and buy the DefTech Mythos STS for my basement. I'm thinking of these speakers for my main HT room:

Atlantic Technology
B&W
Martin Logan
PSB
Revell
Vienna Accoustics

I looked into the DefTech BP7000 series speakers and found there were too bright for my liking. I'd like to move my Sunfire amp to the basement and get a Parasound, Marantz or Krell amp for the main room.

digitalvideo

wutadumsn23 wrote: »

In order to run 9.1 or 9.2, you have to have an AVR that supports it, the SC-05 does not. The AVR has to have the ability to process Dolby Digital PLIIz, which is the the codec that has the "height" or "presence" speakers up front. You would wire it up just like you would any other speaker, to the back of the AVR. You could run a second sub with a Y splitter from the sub out on your AVR for 7.2, but that is the best you can do with the SC-05, since it doesn't support 9.1 or 9.2.

-Jeff

What a/v would you recommend for a 9.1 or 9.2 setup?

kuntasensei

9.2 is nice, but I wouldn't go upgrading just for the sake of height channels. I only have it because I was upgrading AVRs anyway and decided to throw a $100 set of speakers up there just to try it. With that Pio AVR you have, you're good for now. Height channels are pretty cool, but it's an incremental gain... not as big as the step up from 5.1 to 7.1, in my opinion.

Are you not happy with the sound you're getting, or are you just feeling upgradeitis?

digitalvideo

kuntasensei wrote: »

9.2 is nice, but I wouldn't go upgrading just for the sake of height channels. I only have it because I was upgrading AVRs anyway and decided to throw a $100 set of speakers up there just to try it. With that Pio AVR you have, you're good for now. Height channels are pretty cool, but it's an incremental gain... not as big as the step up from 5.1 to 7.1, in my opinion.

Are you not happy with the sound you're getting, or are you just feeling upgradeitis?

Polk's are decent, if I was stuck with them I would be happy. As the more speakers I hear at different stores and in different homes I can tell there are superior sounding speakers out there. The DefTech Mythos STS was amazing especially for it's price, you would think they were $25k speakers, I think those would be great in moderate size rooms in a 5.1 setup, but I'm looking for a setup for my 27x27 room and might add in 2 bases. The AV123 MFW15 beats my SVS PB12 Ultra in all shootout tests and it is almost half the cost.

wutadumsn23

digitalvideo wrote: »

What a/v would you recommend for a 9.1 or 9.2 setup?

There are a few out there that support 9.1, I know Onkyo makes a few, and their new TR series has the ability.

kuntasensei wrote: »

9.2 is nice, but I wouldn't go upgrading just for the sake of height channels. I only have it because I was upgrading AVRs anyway and decided to throw a $100 set of speakers up there just to try it. With that Pio AVR you have, you're good for now. Height channels are pretty cool, but it's an incremental gain... not as big as the step up from 5.1 to 7.1, in my opinion.

Are you not happy with the sound you're getting, or are you just feeling upgradeitis?

+1, I agree 100%, the gains would be small to say the least, IMHO not worth the cost of the upgrade.

-Jeff

digitalvideo

I've read you cannot run both front high and front wide speaker pairs at the same time unless you don't use rear surrounds. I've read some find that using the front highs are best with movies and games and the front wides are better with music.

Also does your Onkyo have the option/feature to let you set the HDMI processing to Auto "pass through" so it's untouched if you want a bd player like the Oppo to do the video processing and upscaling? Does the Onkyo TX-NR3007 as well?

digitalvideo

Looks like the Denon AVR-4810CI can operate height and width channels at the same time, whereas the Onkyos can only do one or the other.

digitalvideo

You guys should really take a look at the Denon AVR-4810CI. 9.3 channels. You can get them on ebay from $2000 to $3000.

wutadumsn23

For $2000 or $3000 that thing better be able to make me breakfast in bed. I'm good with my Onkyo, it does all I need and more for $750 brand new over a year ago. Thanks for the heads up though, that thing does appear to be rather beastly.

-Jeff

kuntasensei

I'm using the Onkyo TX-NR1007. Snagged it from Newegg for $999, which is what they typically offer it for if you check 'em on the weekends. For $1k, it's a freakin' fantastic AVR. It has connections for 11 channels, but only lets you run 9 channels of amplification at once. The Denon's the only one that lets you do a full 11 channels, though I think you might have to use an external amp to drive two of the speakers in that setup. And yes, the 1007 lets you set HDMI to pass through. It also has a full suite of ISF calibration tools (RGB gain & bias, etc.) if you're a video tweaker without access to your set's service menus.

I tried DSX width, and I don't think it's really worth it. That said, my mains are spaced out kinda' wide because of my projection screen and I have my side surrounds pulled forward slightly, so that area that widths are supposed to fill in is already pretty cohesive in my setup and I don't feel that I need more channels there. In fact, I don't really think DSX sounds very good for generating the height channel for movies either, so I'm using DPL-IIz. I do kinda' like DPL-IIx Music+DSX Height for some 2-channel music, but I'm not a stereo purist.

Again, don't upgrade just to upgrade, because it's really an incremental gain. Still, I do highly recommend the TX-NR1007. I've found myself using the network radio and DLNA streaming stuff more than I thought I would, and the ability to do firmware upgrades from the internet works well. Definitely glad I stepped up from my TX-SR705.

digitalvideo

Do you guys set your Onkyo to "pass through/auto" when watching blurays and dvd's and let your bd player do the scaling and processing or do you let the Onkyo process it? Also, when you set the Onkyo to "auto" does it cleanly send the HDMI signal through uninterupted with no jaggies or other problems? I've read some recievers can't completely pass an HDMI signal through 100% untouched even when it's set to Auto. The Pio av's seem to do it well. Not sure about Onkyo or Denon av's yet.

wutadumsn23

Have my 806 set to "Auto" and my PS3 set for HDMI. Works like a champ.

-Jeff

tvb6171

Question, I got another pair of FXi A4 coming for the back surround in a 7.1 set up, question is if I'm using Bipole mode for all surrounds, do I need to reverse the left and right surrounds for the back as you do for dipole mode?

thuchien

I am from 5.1 to 7.1 and I like it. I get more surround and open sound feeling. I think 7.1 help because i have open room 4 ft away behind my chair. All 4 surround speakers are 4 or 5 ft away from my listening chair. I have pioneer sc 05 and i set it to HTX mode so it can put sound from 5.1 to 7.1 speakers. So it depends on how much back room you have. I don't think put speaker right next to you will benefit.

triggernick

Do you guys think the onkyo 1007 (rated at 135 wpc at high current) will be able to give the lsi 15's (with 9's as surrounds). the juice they need to sing? I have been searching the forums for awhile, but im having issues with the organization of the results.

Hillbilly61

kuntasensei wrote: »

It doesn't matter if movies are in 7.1 on Blu-ray, since they will never be 7.1 in the theater. 7.1's purpose is to recreate theatrical 6.1 (or more specifically, 5.1 EX/ES) in a smaller home space. The two rear surrounds are to prevent perceived reversal and allow for more precise steering across the rear soundstage to simulate the placement of sounds in a theatrical side/rear array. Steering logic such as DPL-IIx can be applied to damn near every 5.1 track out there to recreate the theatrical sound, since the vast majority of 5.1 mixes today are done in a way that makes them compatible with 5.1 EX/ES theatrical systems.

7.1 native material on Blu-ray isn't really native at all. It's just them providing the steering logic before encoding instead of you doing it from a 5.1 track at home. Don't let the lack of 7.1 tracks on Blu-ray make you think that there isn't a use for 7.1 in your home theater. People have just forgotten why 7.1 exists and have been snowed by these pseudo-7.1 tracks being pawned off on Blu-ray.

Yea, my Yamaha 663 will effective simulate a 7.1 from a 5.1 any day and do it well - for reasons stated. The surround effects is very effective for that wrap around effect (as if you where there there - sounds come from behind you too in real life).

Just as others state, don't push it. The room size and orientation/geometry matters if you want to "play" with 7.1

fluffy

wutadumsn23 wrote: »

In order to run 9.1 or 9.2, you have to have an AVR that supports it, the SC-05 does not. The AVR has to have the ability to process Dolby Digital PLIIz, which is the the codec that has the "height" or "presence" speakers up front. You would wire it up just like you would any other speaker, to the back of the AVR. You could run a second sub with a Y splitter from the sub out on your AVR for 7.2, but that is the best you can do with the SC-05, since it doesn't support 9.1 or 9.2.

-Jeff

maybe i dont understand fully what you mean by 9.1 but the sc-05 does do that plIIz.. i get it all the time on 5.1 true hd

it displays true hd + plIIz

fluffy

fluffy wrote: »

maybe i dont understand fully what you mean by 9.1 but the sc-05 does do that plIIz.. i get it all the time on 5.1 true hd

it displays true hd + plIIz

i have a sc-05 with mythos two and three up front
polk audio rt35i for the sides and fx500i on the back wall (which is directly behind the couch )
and two prosub 1000's placed diagonally from each other .

the room is about 11.5 or so by 22 but i only use about 15 or 16 feet of the length for my 7.1

to me whatever the mixers are doing with the 7.1 dtshdma versus the 5.1 dtshdma sounds so much better... sounds like an instant boost in clarity and sound seperation from each channel

try some movies from lionsgate..for instance

hellboy II
saw IV, V, VI
rambo the latest one
pans labyrinth
see no evil with kane
punisher war zone... not the movie with travolta but the latest reboot...


i guarantee you will like the difference between that and 5.1 no matter what is technically going on with it...

wutadumsn23

fluffy wrote: »

maybe i dont understand fully what you mean by 9.1 but the sc-05 does do that plIIz.. i get it all the time on 5.1 true hd

it displays true hd + plIIz

What I mean by 9.1 is there are two additional speaker terminals on the back of your AVR that may be labeled something like Front Wide L/R and/or Front High L/R (just an example) and the SC-05 is only a 7.1 AVR, so unless there is some way to add some speakers to the Zone 2 or some other tomfoolery you will be limited to 5.1 or 7.1. It may have the ability to decode 9.1 and simulate it, but as far as it being able to do the actual 9.1, I don't see how. I may be wrong since I am just going with what I know about the technology and not the inner workings of the AVR itself. Maybe somebody else will have better/more answers.

-Jeff

comfortablycurt

fluffy wrote: »

maybe i dont understand fully what you mean by 9.1 but the sc-05 does do that plIIz.. i get it all the time on 5.1 true hd

it displays true hd + plIIz

You're thinking of PLIIx(Pro-logic IIx).

The SC-05 doesn't have Pro-logic IIz.

Very few receivers do right now, and only the newest models out there. The SC-05 was discontinued before they even released PLIIz if I recall correctly.

wutadumsn23

triggernick wrote: »

Do you guys think the onkyo 1007 (rated at 135 wpc at high current) will be able to give the lsi 15's (with 9's as surrounds). the juice they need to sing? I have been searching the forums for awhile, but im having issues with the organization of the results.

Welcome to Club Polk nick, next time you post feel free to make your own thread as this is kinda thread jacking since your question isn't related to helping the OP with his question. Having said that, IMHO the 1007 is a beast, but don't be fooled by power ratings, Onkyo and most other companies, rate their speakers at only 2 channels driven and the power output will drop considerably with every speaker you add after that. Not to mention the LSi's are 4 ohm speakers and require a lot of power to live up to their reputation as Polk's Flagship (current speakers anyway) 4 ohm speakers are not usually driven very well by an AVR alone, unless it is some tank of a unit that costs $10,000. Will the 1007 drive them? Yes Will it drive them to their potential? No Is it a good idea? Not really If you are careful with the volume knob and don't crank it up too high, you should be fine for now. What I would do is save up some cash for a good 3 or 5 channel external amp and use it to power the LSi's. What are you running for a center? I would get a 3 channel amp and use it to power the 3 front ones (Left/Right and Center) and let the 1007 run the 9's. You are, IMHO, playing with fire, but if you are careful, you won't get burned. It is only a matter of time until you put too much of a load on that AVR and it goes into protect mode or the speakers clip, neither of which you want. Onkyo's run hot as it is, using it to power 4 ohm speakers will only make it run hotter. Good luck, and welcome again.

-Jeff

wutadumsn23

comfortablycurt wrote: »

You're thinking of PLIIx(Pro-logic IIx).

The SC-05 doesn't have Pro-logic IIz.

Very few receivers do right now, and only the newest models out there. The SC-05 was discontinued before they even released PLIIz if I recall correctly.

Thanks for clearing it up Curt, I looked after I posted and saw it wasn't able to decode it, but it was too late to edit my post. I knew there was only a handful of AVR's that could, but I wasn't sure until I checked that the SC-05 coudn't.

-Jeff

vanica28

wutadumsn23 wrote: »

Thanks for clearing it up Curt, I looked after I posted and saw it wasn't able to decode it, but it was too late to edit my post. I knew there was only a handful of AVR's that could, but I wasn't sure until I checked that the SC-05 coudn't.

-Jeff

I THINK YOU NEED IT. GOOD LUCK TO YOU!!!

wutadumsn23

vanica28 wrote: »

I THINK YOU NEED IT. GOOD LUCK TO YOU!!!

???? Pretty random, lol.

-Jeff

fluffy

comfortablycurt wrote: »

You're thinking of PLIIx(Pro-logic IIx).

The SC-05 doesn't have Pro-logic IIz.

Very few receivers do right now, and only the newest models out there. The SC-05 was discontinued before they even released PLIIz if I recall correctly.

you are exactly correct.. i just went and watched a movie.. my bad..

7.1 still sounds fantastic regardless.

wutadumsn23

fluffy wrote: »

you are exactly correct.. i just went and watched a movie.. my bad..

7.1 still sounds fantastic regardless.

It's all good man, enjoy the tunes!!

-Jeff