What Is "High End" Audio?

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  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,485
    edited February 2010
    Think of it this way, you can have 2 automobiles that perform similarly, but have a $30,000 price difference. Does this make the cheaper car not as good? Maybe, maybe not; but the $30,000 difference in price is certainly attached to the materials used, ergonomics, brand popularity, etc. These may be elements that make the car more appealing, but not necessarily perform better.
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Speakers: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
  • moodyman
    moodyman Posts: 45
    edited February 2010
    steveinaz wrote: »
    but the $30,000 difference in price is certainly attached to the materials used, ergonomics, brand popularity, etc.

    or a good chunk of that 30,000 grand diffrence could be outrageously high mark-up...(is that what you were implying by mentioning "brand popularity"?)
  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,485
    edited February 2010
    ...yes, that too.
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Speakers: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 24,296
    edited February 2010
    moodyman wrote: »
    or a good chunk of that 30,000 grand diffrence could be outrageously high mark-up...(is that what you were implying by mentioning "brand popularity"?)
    steveinaz wrote: »
    ...yes, that too.

    On the opposite there are brands that could be charging a whole lot more and get it, but they don't. They actually give ideas away which has spawned an "evil" cloning market which errodes profits even furthur and could ruin a brand image since the clones aren't really the same thing in many instances.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • steveinaz
    steveinaz Posts: 19,485
    edited February 2010
    Right or wrong, many Americans associate quality with price tag, thankfully there is some equipment that performs very, very well for its price. Having as many hobbies as I do (and not the paycheck to support them the way I would like...LOL), I have to try to capitalize on bang-for-my-buck items. I like the challenge of seeing just how good a piece I can get for the money, that will at the same time satisfy my fussiness.
    Source: Bluesound Node 2i - Preamp/DAC: Benchmark DAC2 DX - Amp: Parasound Halo A21 - Speakers: MartinLogan Motion 60XTi - Shop Rig: Yamaha A-S501 Integrated - Speakers: Elac Debut 2.0 B5.2
  • heiney9
    heiney9 Posts: 24,296
    edited February 2010
    I agree that price isn;t the sole determination and I enjoy part of the hunt, finding that piece that sounds so much better than another within my budget. I have what I think is an excellent sounding rig, and I have spent a fraction on it compared to other same performing gear. It's still mostly mid-fi gear, perhaps scratching the high-end a bit.

    But in general................and I HATE generalizing in audio, as you move up the performance ladder the price follows in a lot of instances.

    H9
    "Appreciation of audio is a completely subjective human experience. Measurements can provide a measure of insight, but are no substitute for human judgment. Why are we looking to reduce a subjective experience to objective criteria anyway? The subtleties of music and audio reproduction are for those who appreciate it. Differentiation by numbers is for those who do not".--Nelson Pass

    Pass Aleph 30 | EE Avant Pre | EE Mini Max Plus DAC | MIT Shotgun S3 | MIT Z P/C's | updated SDA 1C| SQ Box Touch/Welbourne Labs P/S- Tubes add soul!
  • DMara
    DMara Posts: 1,434
    edited February 2010
    I notice DK presented his article in this "2 Channel Audio" sub-forum. Does it mean most High-End audio devices gear toward 2-channel listening?
    Gears shared to both living room & bedroom:
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  • madmax
    madmax Posts: 12,435
    edited February 2010
    DMara wrote: »
    I notice DK presented his article in this "2 Channel Audio" sub-forum. Does it mean most High-End audio devices gear toward 2-channel listening?

    Didn't you read the cliff notes? :D
    madmax
    Vinyl, the final frontier...

    Avantgarde horns, 300b tubes, thats the kinda crap I want... :D
  • zingo
    zingo Audiophile Posts: 11,255
    edited February 2010
    steveinaz wrote: »
    Right or wrong, many Americans associate quality with price tag, thankfully there is some equipment that performs very, very well for its price. Having as many hobbies as I do (and not the paycheck to support them the way I would like...LOL), I have to try to capitalize on bang-for-my-buck items. I like the challenge of seeing just how good a piece I can get for the money, that will at the same time satisfy my fussiness.

    I would say most of us are in this pool.
  • jaxwired
    jaxwired Posts: 201
    edited February 2010
    Hawkeye wrote: »
    I frankly don't see why anybody would be offended by having their gear classified as low, mid, hi or uber

    If person A thinks their gear is high end and you call it mid-fi, at the very least, they won't appreciate it. You're dumbfounded by that concept?
    What exactly does cost have to do with anything?

    My original post stated that it is possible to assemble a system that competes with a high end system for a fraction of the price. That statement is being debated. Please read the entire thread so you won't be so easily confused.
    I have nothing but mid-fi in my rig. I'm 110% ok with that label. Anyone who thinks that a "mid-fi" branding is offensive is severely paranoid, and should take solace in the fact that the fact that they even HAVE mid-fi puts them above 99.5% of the world's population.

    LOL, I love this one. So "low-fi" is the bottom 99.4%. I guess "mid-fi" is 99.5% to 99.8%? And then "high-end" is that last 0.2% of super high performing gear? That's pretty funny. Ok. I guess I am ok with "mid-fi". Pretty fine line there. Must be tough for a manufaturer to break into that 0.2% range. Good stuff....
    BlueFox wrote: »
    High-end is like pornagraphy. You know it when you see (hear) it.

    Brilliant and I totally agree! It's all about how a system sounds. Synergy, rhythm, timing, pace, bass, detail, clarity, presence, air, whatever. Comments on that subject regarding gear that's been demoed or owned makes good sense. A blanket lable like "mid-fi" makes no sense at all.
    mini-me wrote: »
    But most of all, hearing and ability to hear the differences and appreciates these qualities totally depends on an individual. That's why I said you'll do yourself a lot of good by using TV speakers for movies and portable mp3 players for Hi-Fi listening.

    That's a slam and we both know it. You embarass yourself.
    mini-me wrote:
    You may think it was a poor argument or an attack but I was just stating the solution for you. If you can't hear a difference to begin with, all the discussions here will not be able to make you hear anymore than you already can. But you should be glad that there is no difference in sound (since it's all subjective) between portable mp3 players, Mid-Fi gears and Hi-Fi gears for you so you don't need to spend extravaganza amount of money in this unquantifiable hobby!
    [\Quote]

    I never said that I couldn't hear a difference. Not once. That's ridiculous and irrelevent. You really think I would even be on this forum or own the gear I do if I wasn't a discriminating listener? No need to respond...

    mini-me wrote:
    The bottom line - if you can't hear a difference between $300CD player and $3000CD player, I will agree that they may not make any difference. But if you can't hear a difference between $1000 speaker and $10000 speakers and keep saying there is no mid-fi or hi-fi classification based on cost and sound quality, you know the Subjective Quality you are seeking doesn't exist coz you never heard a difference in them.
    [\Quote]

    Look, when you debate with someone, have the decency not to intentionally distort their argument to make your point. You will be so much more respected. If you can't debate someone's point without misrepresenting the opposing view, you might want to rethink your own position. Enough said...
    mini-me wrote: »
    PS. I did not say anything such as Cost and Performance relates perfectly at all. There are still tons of over-priced Mid-Fi and Hi-Fi gears out there.

    So after all that, you agree with me. wow.
    McLoki wrote: »
    Hiney and others are saying a well thought out lower price piece of gear MAY be better than a much higher price (but not as well thought out) piece of gear. That is not to say that a lower price well thought out piece of gear is as good as ANY higher price piece of gear (no matter how well it is thought out).
    anyway - your 2k to 10k comparison.... I am sure SOME 2k players sound better than SOME 10k players, but I am equally sure that SOME 2k players do not sound better than ALL 10k players. (or no one - or very very few people, would purchase the more expensive player)
    Michael

    Very good post. Excellent. I don't really think Hiney was quite agreeing as you state, but your point is very valid and I agree. Given the same talented high end designer, he can create a better amp with 10k than with 2k. No question or argument. All I ever said was that a savy audiophile can assemble a very high performing system (high end, not mid-fi) for much less than typical high end prices. This is what hiney and others seem to disagree with. Do I think a 2k amp can out perform every 10k amp on the market? No, of course not and I never said that.
    heiney9 wrote: »
    I agree that price isn;t the sole determination and I enjoy part of the hunt, finding that piece that sounds so much better than another within my budget. I have what I think is an excellent sounding rig, and I have spent a fraction on it compared to other same performing gear. It's still mostly mid-fi gear, perhaps scratching the high-end a bit.

    But in general................and I HATE generalizing in audio, as you move up the performance ladder the price follows in a lot of instances.

    H9

    I agree that in general as price increase, so does performance. But it's not an absolute which is why assembly a giant killer system IS possible. And for someone that hates generalizing, what do you think labeling someone's gear "mid-fi" is doing?
    2 Channel
    NAD C545 -> Benchmark DAC1 -> Bryston BP6 -> Bryston 4B SST2 -> Dynaudio Contour S1.4
  • MANSKITO
    MANSKITO Posts: 295
    edited February 2010
    And this is to help my understanding of the topic in what way? My brain hurts from even trying to understand this.:confused:

    To boil it down I am saying that there is almost always an Objective reality i.e. 2+2 will almost always equal 4 no matter what you subjectively believe.

    How ever unlike math there are MANY branches of science where we can NOT measure the objective truth directly for example in the audio world we can not directly measure what is going on inside my head when I am listening to AC/DC but that dose not mean there is no objective truth just because we can not measure it directly. There are documented ways to measure the objective truth even if your limited to subjective measuring.

    For example in many areas of physiology your limited to just what people self report that is to say you have to ask them what is going on in there heads. But this clearly has not limited us much in finding the object truth and coming up with very convincing theories on how the mind works (something we can never take a ruler too.)

    And my point was it would be easier for some one who has limited experience (and limited funds) in the audio world, who wants to buy the high end, to form a base line opinion of the high end of audio.(aka which speakers are the best at there respective price points and where dose the law of diminishing returns start to take effect) But to my knowledge no one has tried to do an objective study of the reproduction of sound.

    Dose that make it more clear?
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 23,498
    edited February 2010
    ^^^ worse... much worse.


    I will leave it up to my ears to make the call as to what I buy, and my other senses to guide my path down the Wabbit hole.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Arcam AVR21, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Yamaha CD-S2100 SACD Player.

    In retirement...TriangleArt Reference SE with Walker Precision Motor Drive,

    “Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book has been rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered…History has stopped. Nothing exists except the endless present in which the party is always right” — George Orwell

    “If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.”
  • MANSKITO
    MANSKITO Posts: 295
    edited February 2010
    ^^^ worse... much worse.


    I will leave it up to my ears to make the call as to what I buy, and my other senses to guide my path down the Wabbit hole.

    Alas i hate being limited by text i m a very poor writer much better speaker.
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  • Jetmaker737
    Jetmaker737 Posts: 924
    edited February 2010
    MANSKITO wrote: »
    What I am saying is we can in fact (and should) scientifically say that one piece of gear is better then the other. There is no reason to let subjective opinion rule the roost so to speak.

    I can understand this opinion but you don't have the experience to know that the scientific method is limited when it comes to human perception and the subjectivity inherent in it.

    The OP makes the opposite mistake. Taking subjective experience and stating it as scientific fact (i.e. in the description of his theory of listening fatigue)

    No offense meant to the OP. The post is very interesting and thought provoking.
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 47,062
    edited February 2010
    2 Channel
    NAD C545 -> Benchmark DAC1 -> NAD C165 -> NAD C275 -> Dynaudio Contour S1.4
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    Yep, entry level mid-fi.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."


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  • mini-me
    mini-me Posts: 70
    edited February 2010
    jaxwired wrote: »

    That's a slam and we both know it. You embarass yourself.

    Slam? Does it leave a mark on ya?
    I never said that I couldn't hear a difference. Not once. That's ridiculous and irrelevent. You really think I would even be on this forum or own the gear I do if I wasn't a discriminating listener? No need to respond...
    You are a discriminating listener? So, why did you say that sound quality is subjective and gears should not be classified as "Mid-Fi or Hi-Fi" based on sound quality? Do you aware that Higher Quality Product commands higher cost?
    Look, when you debate with someone, have the decency not to intentionally distort their argument to make your point. You will be so much more respected. If you can't debate someone's point without misrepresenting the opposing view, you might want to rethink your own position. Enough said...

    So after all that, you agree with me. wow.

    How Funny! Have you looked in the mirror lately or you just kinda want to argue your way around and twist your words?

    Some savvy Audiophiles can do the high end sound on a budget, huh? Pretty interesting. I am an Audiophuck who has been doing exactly just that my whole life. Even if Synergy makes Mid-Fi components sounds like a more expensive Hi-Fi system as a whole, every individual gear is still considered a Mid-Fi product and I am totally happy to own them. But to some, it must be a hard concept to grasp...
  • mini-me
    mini-me Posts: 70
    edited February 2010
    jaxwired wrote: »
    But it's not an absolute which is why assembly a giant killer system IS possible. And for someone that hates generalizing, what do you think labeling someone's gear "mid-fi" is doing?

    Do you think Synergy works on only Low-Fi and Mid-Fi gears? Synergy doesn't work on Hi-Fi gears? :D

    A Giant Killer Mid-Fi setup? I am interested to LEARN!
  • MANSKITO
    MANSKITO Posts: 295
    edited February 2010
    F1nut wrote: »
    Yep, entry level mid-fi.

    if thats mid-fi what do i have? Fossilized dinosaur dung? lol?
    Monitor 60s, CS10 front
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 15,307
    edited February 2010
    You guys crack me up. I have a 1/4 of what my house is worth wrapped up in my rig and if anybody wants to call it mid-fi or even low end-entry level, I could care less. It's just a name.

    Remember back when you were in elementary school? There was this saying that goes something like this....."Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me".

    Please tell me that you have excelled past elementary school thinking.
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~

    ~ I have found excellence ~

    ~ The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction ~

  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 15,307
    edited February 2010
    That's right. I said it.
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~

    ~ I have found excellence ~

    ~ The best way to enjoy digital music reproduction is to never listen to good analogue reproduction ~

  • MANSKITO
    MANSKITO Posts: 295
    edited February 2010
    treitz3 wrote: »

    Please tell me that you have excelled past elementary school thinking.

    I for one haven't you big stinky do do head.
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    Maverick Audio Tube Magic D1 DAC

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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,534
    edited February 2010
    There's nothing like thread crapping to ruin a mediocre thread.
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
  • cnh
    cnh Posts: 13,286
    edited February 2010
    Even some of the greatest audio engineers/designers who have scientific training and degrees don't believe there is an 'objective' standard out there for gear, sound, etc. The question for you...is why 'they' don't?

    The answer is abundantly available above! There must be DOZENS of threads and debates over this...do a search and you'll be surprised at the depth of discussion and the knowledge available here.

    cnh
    Currently orbiting Bowie's Blackstar.!

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  • rubin
    rubin Banned Posts: 565
    edited February 2010
    F1nut wrote: »
    Yep, entry level mid-fi.

    Onkyo,Nad,Adcom,Sony,Pioneer,Emo,....Yep all are entry level mid-fi,I got some as well.
  • mini-me
    mini-me Posts: 70
    edited February 2010
    3 Krell Design Engineers working on a Krell Integrated Amplifier decided to get lunch together since they needed to finish the project in time and wanted to discuss some final design over the lunch table. One guy suggested he knew a place where there they can have a pie and a pizza just like his mom used to made.

    So, they went there together and ordered a Large Meat Lover Pizza and a house special home-made style pie.

    One Engineer took a slice of pizza and ate it. Then, he had a piece of pie too. After that, he said - "Holy Mackerel, the Pizza tastes like pie!"

    Another Engineer also took a piece of Pizza and a Piece of Pie and said - "Holy Chit! This is the best Pizza and Pie ever, they taste like my mom used to make." (meaning she microwaved the ready made pie and pizza on the busy days)

    The Last Engineer also had a bite of Pizza and a pie, then, he immediately drink water and said, "What is it they put in their pie and pizza here? Damn Pizza and Pie taste like Transistors! The crust is so hard and uneatable like Transistors!"

    The story suggests the 1st guy can't say a difference in taste since he thinks Pie taste like Pizza. The 2nd guy can't say good from bad and actually prefers the bad pizza that he used to eat at home when he was young. The 3rd guy has been obviously chewing on transistor at work so he knew what it taste like!

    Ok, It's completely fictional here! There is no Krell or Krell Engineers ever involved. It's simple that people have different eating habits, drinking habits, different sensory perception and different taste.

    Taste is a sensory perception! So is hearing, seeing, touching and smelling. We all have different preferences and we perceive all sensory information differently.

    Is the glass half filled of half empty? You know you don't get wrong answering that kind of question. But why bother arguing the fact that it is only half filled for the sake of argument?

    Be it Low-Fi or Mid-Fi or Hi-Fi, if the gear can give you the enjoyment and the happiness, why worries too much about whether it belongs to Low or Mid or Hi-Fi? The Giant Killer are a Myth.

    If Giant Killers truly exists; then, there is / will be no Giant Left to kill. Saying a Giant Killer gear X is just another way of marketing strategy! :)
  • Fongolio
    Fongolio Posts: 3,516
    edited February 2010
    treitz3 wrote: »
    You guys crack me up. I have a 1/4 of what my house is worth wrapped up in my rig and if anybody wants to call it mid-fi or even low end-entry level, I could care less. It's just a name.

    Remember back when you were in elementary school? There was this saying that goes something like this....."Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me".

    Please tell me that you have excelled past elementary school thinking.

    Thank you Tom. Exactly what I was thinking. Well minus the 1/4 of my house worth of gear part.
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  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 23,498
    edited February 2010
    mini-me wrote: »
    If Giant Killers truly exists; then, there is / will be no Giant Left to kill. Saying a Giant Killer gear X is just another way of marketing strategy! :)


    Wrong.:rolleyes:

    There are many pieces of gear that perform well above their pricepoint, and some that deserve to be called "Giant Killers." There are a number of makes that are legendary today for doing precisely that, and have become "High-End" in their own right as a result. The Stasis designs of Nelson Pass for example and the work he did with Adcom elevated him to the respect and stature he enjoys today. Most of us can only drool over the gear he creates today, but a Nakamichi PA7 is somewhat more obtainable.

    I guess that would make Adcom and the Nakamichi PA series amps Giantkillers.
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Arcam AVR21, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Yamaha CD-S2100 SACD Player.

    In retirement...TriangleArt Reference SE with Walker Precision Motor Drive,

    “Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book has been rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered…History has stopped. Nothing exists except the endless present in which the party is always right” — George Orwell

    “If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.”
  • mini-me
    mini-me Posts: 70
    edited February 2010
    Hey the poster above me,

    Can you put me back into your **** list please? I enjoy living there.

    What does Nelson's Stasis Topology got to do with any Giant Killer gear? Did his work with Adcom / Forte / Threshold / Nakamichi actually killed Any Giant / High End / Manufacturer you know? Nelson Pass achieved so much that Pass Labs become a major player with the Giants nowadays! Still, he hardly killed any Giant before him!

    *Cough Cough Cough* Now, put me back into your **** list.
  • MANSKITO
    MANSKITO Posts: 295
    edited February 2010
    mini-me wrote: »
    Hey the poster above me,

    Can you put me back into your **** list please? I enjoy living there.

    What does Nelson's Stasis Topology got to do with any Giant Killer gear? Did his work with Adcom / Forte / Threshold / Nakamichi actually killed Any Giant / High End / Manufacturer you know? Nelson Pass achieved so much that Pass Labs become a major player with the Giants nowadays! Still, he hardly killed any Giant before him!

    *Cough Cough Cough* Now, put me back into your **** list.

    Think of this way, what if one day some one comes up with an amp that uses a new tech, one that combines the best attributes of both tubes, and SS and because of the nature of this new tech it is very cheap to produce so you find extremely high grade sound at low price points. Would that amp not be the amp to own? I know I certainly would want to buy it.

    I never actually heard the term giant killer before, but i get the idea, it has happened in other industries. And most likely it will happen in this one (and i find it hard to believe it has not happened in the past) because there is a lot of money to be made by doing so. Innovation happens all the time and progress is very hard to stop.
    Monitor 60s, CS10 front
    Monitor 40s, back
    PSW10:(

    H/k AVR 325
    Sansui Tape Deck
    Pioneer PD-5010 CD player

    Sennheiser HD 650s :D
    Maverick Audio Tube Magic D1 DAC

    AMD Phenom II 940 @ 3.8 prime stabel
    4 gigs 1066, cas 5
    XFX 4890 1gig
    Seagate 1tb 7200.12
    Creative X-fI Titanium Fatal1ty
  • nooshinjohn
    nooshinjohn Posts: 23,498
    edited February 2010
    MANSKITO wrote: »
    Think of this way, what if one day some one comes up with an amp that uses a new tech, one that combines the best attributes of both tubes, and SS and because of the nature of this new tech it is very cheap to produce so you find extremely high grade sound at low price points. Would that amp not be the amp to own? I know I certainly would want to buy it.

    I never actually heard the term giant killer before, but i get the idea, it has happened in other industries. And most likely it will happen in this one because there is a lot of money to be made by doing so.


    LOL... This post I can understand;) It happens all the time in any field from aircraft to automobiles. Competition is why they do it in the first place. By having that desire to do something better for less, you go from being the little guy to the top of the heap. It is here that Giant-killers are born. It is being able to stay on top that gets dicey because someone is always trying to be better than you.


    +1
    The Gear... Carver "Statement" Mono-blocks, Arcam AVR21, Oppo UDP-203 4K Blu-ray player, Sony XBR70x850B 4k, Polk Audio Legend L800 with height modules, L400 Center Channel Polk audio AB800 "in-wall" surrounds. Marantz MM7025 stereo amp. Yamaha CD-S2100 SACD Player.

    In retirement...TriangleArt Reference SE with Walker Precision Motor Drive,

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