"Grandparent" speakers for under $300?

rs159

For a space around 30' x 35', driven by a Denon AVC-3030 (pro logic), I (read - my grandparents) need speakers for a HT. But, I'm havin' troubles deciding considering the requirements are

-95 db (in at least the TV part of the space)
Not terribly impressive to most of us, but they will think it's too loud anyway.
-45hz
Again, not terribly impressive, but it will probably be enough to make them think they've been missing out
-Under $300
Here's the hard part.

So far I've come up with a few options.
1)

---

-Polk R15 (2)
-Polk CSi20 (1)
-Cheapo outdoor speakers under $30 (2)
-sub, undecided
That would sound great with pro-logic, but even with everything on sale it only leaves about $30 for a sub. Waaa

2)

---

-Polk RM6005
-PSW 202
That would be a lot cheaper considering you can find the RM6005 with the 202 at a lot of places for around $300. What I'm worried about is the tiny sats' ability to sound good in a retardedly huge room. I also feel like I would be wasting the Denon's full potential power-wise.

3)

---

Same as option 1 but with a passive DIY sub tuned to about 35hz.

That would go lower and take advantage of the Denons potential. Lack of flexibility (passive) and quality of the components ($20 driver, $10 for parts and such) are my major concerns. Of all the options this is the one I like the least.

4)

---

Start with option 2, and gradually upgrade the sats. First, a CSi20 center, then R15s or R20s, maybe even RTi28s or R30s. If the planets align and the heavens rip apart and God is smiling down then maybe the sub could be upgraded too. Surrounds wouldn't change considering the nature of pro logic. This is the game plan I like the most, it's more expensive, but the cost is not all at once. There would be 3 leftover sats, I figure two could be used with a small sub for a bedroom or computer system and the other could be sold to an RM owner wanting to upgrade to 6.1 but who doesn't want to pay Polk's price.

Unless, of course somebody else knows about a sparkling bargain that I overlooked.

RuSsMaN

Don't forget, those bookshelf speaks will need stands.

$300 total budget, 5 speakers + powered or passive sub? Let me work on it for a few.

Cheers,
Rooster

rs159

Originally posted by rs159
...Surrounds wouldn't change considering the nature of pro logic. ...

What are the -exact- specs for surrounds in pro-logic? I know the top end is cut out because it's harder to maintain the proper phase to get it to matrix right at higher frequencies but where is it cut at? Is it a brick wall or a slope? Does it vary decoder to decoder?

RuSsMaN

Nothing is a brick wall in audio.

I *think* the standard was a 12db/oct slope, bandpassed from 100Hz to somewhere between 7 and 10 Khz. Hence why we saw a lot of FR, single driver 'rear' speakers during that era.

Still looking, trying to find an acceptable front stage with floorstanders.

Cheers,
Rooster

rs159

Originally posted by RuSsMaN
Don't forget, those bookshelf speaks will need stands. ...
Cheers,
Rooster

Bookshelves, yes. What about the RMs? I would think you could get better sub/sat blending with wall reinforcement to extend the response a tad.

Originally posted by RuSsMaN
...$300 total budget, 5 speakers + powered or passive sub? Let me work on it for a few.

Cheers,
Rooster

Active is preferred if a sub is used at all. Unless the passive sub is computer controlled with all the bells and whistles you could ask for to get the right integration, but good luck finding one in the set budget.

Originally posted by RuSsMaN
Nothing is a brick wall in audio. ...

Cheers,
Rooster

(Hitting self in head)

Esp w/ analog, I should've known.

rs159

Hmm, I wonder?

Flunace Speakers

The price is appealing, which would make sense considering if they sell direct the price would be less of what it would be at a dealer, but I can't shake the "white van" feeling. They have posotive feedback and a lot of the feedback is honest, they don't claim them to be the best in the world (like the "b" manufacturer), but they don't say they are aweful. I went over their website as quick as I can and if the return policy is obvious then I must have missed it. I guess I could always resell them to MX

Just a thought.

RuSsMaN

No.

Hold on, I feel it, I'm getting a reading....

Cheers,
Rooster

rs159

Ha ha. I'll trust your psycho-acoustic abilities

ncw

Originally posted by rs159
For a space around 30' x 35', driven by a Denon AVC-3030 (pro logic), I (read - my grandparents) need speakers for a HT. But, I'm havin' troubles deciding considering the requirements are

-95 db (in at least the TV part of the space)
Not terribly impressive to most of us, but they will think it's too loud anyway.
-45hz
Again, not terribly impressive, but it will probably be enough to make them think they've been missing out
-Under $300

Realistically, most TV broadcasts are not digital unless you have cable TV that specifically stated that they transmit digital signal.

Most TV broadcast channel is simply stereo with virtual surround, like the TV virtual setting you have on Sony Digital Dolby EX DVD players. The TV virtual surround setting makes 2 speakers sound like 4 or 5 speakers.

So the biggest bang for the bucks will be 2 good speaders plus a subwoofer.

For example you can use Yamaha floorstanding speakers and a subwoofer. That should be within the $300 budget. Listen to the Yamaha floorstanding speakers and you will be amazed. Add a Polk subwoofer for $150 on sale and you're all set.

[URL=http://]www.bestbuy.com/HomeAudioVideo/Speakers/Floorstanding.asp?m=1&cat=15&scat=17[/URL]

burdette

How would you power a passive sub?

Given your requirement of about 45Hz or so on the low end, I think you might be better off going for a better pair of mains and skipping the sub. I bought a pair of Monitor 5jr+ off the forums for $160 delivered, for example, and something like that could serve on its own w/o a sub.

Looking around at powered subs in the $100-$150 range... a few show a low end in the 30s, but that is NOT given as a 3dB down frequency, so you can bet -3dB is quite a bit higher.

Building a sub with a $20 driver?? Price aside, I wonder if the *quality* of bass would surpass a better pair of mains.

It seems to me that it is relatively more expensive to get quality on the low end than it is on the high end. In other words... on a budget as limited as the one you are talking about, you are going to *have to* give up something, and I think you'll end up with a better system, a more overall pleasing sound, if you go for higher quality from 45Hz - 20kHz, rather than trying to fill in the space below 45. Split 300 bucks between a sub AND mains (not even considering a potential center or surrounds), and I think you lose out all the way around.

I lived with a -3dB down frequency of 40Hz for years and years (my Monitor 7s). Yes, I can certainly tell a difference now that I have a sub... but I wasn't unhappy before.. the sound was pleasing and nice.. and on most music, heck, even most movies (especially grandparent-type movies), it was fine. On the other hand.. a cheap tweeter or weakness in the midrange or midbass... a much more grating day-to-day problem, in my opinion.

rs159

Originally posted by burdette
... Given your requirement of about 45Hz or so on the low end, I think you might be better off going for a better pair of mains and skipping the sub. I bought a pair of Monitor 5jr+ off the forums for $160 delivered, for example, and something like that could serve on its own w/o a sub. ...

Which I was starting to lean towards anyway considering you would pay for another amp that would probably be less powerfull than the Denon anyway.

Originally posted by burdette
... Building a sub with a $20 driver?? Price aside, I wonder if the *quality* of bass would surpass a better pair of mains. ...

I just threw that option in there for **** and giggles, and notice I said that's the only option I don't like.

Originally posted by burdette
... I lived with a -3dB down frequency of 40Hz for years and years (my Monitor 7s). Yes, I can certainly tell a difference now that I have a sub... but I wasn't unhappy before.. the sound was pleasing and nice.. and on most music, heck, even most movies (especially grandparent-type movies), it was fine. On the other hand.. a cheap tweeter or weakness in the midrange or midbass... a much more grating day-to-day problem, in my opinion.

Heck, I lived with an F3 of 50 for a while and it though it couldn't break wind in some heavy rap and movies, it was enough to give decent punch, some rumble, and enough dimensionality to make it more believable than a friggin clock radio or something.

BTW, my grandparents like (gasp) modern country. Some gospel, and some Christmas music and stuff like that. I'm not even sure the exact type of movies they like, but I know that they would never go see The Matrix or anything like that, and it's not like country uses giant bass drums or bass synths so subsonic bass wouldn't matter that much. However, good tight bass guitars and detailed vocals and guitars and things would probably make themselves a lot more evident in good country CDs than extension below 45.

rs159

Originally posted by ncw
... For example you can use Yamaha floorstanding speakers and a subwoofer. That should be within the $300 budget. Listen to the Yamaha floorstanding speakers and you will be amazed. Add a Polk subwoofer for $150 on sale and you're all set.

[URL=http://]www.bestbuy.com/HomeAudioVideo/Speakers/Floorstanding.asp?m=1&cat=15&scat=17[/URL]

Really, Yamaha? I've honestly never heard low end Yammers before. Best Buy is just opening a new store in Harrisburg so I might take a little fun trip one of these days.

Something also tells me that the 10 inch MTXs at CC might be suited to something like this. High power handing, high efficiency, good extension, the problem is I've never heard them. Also, consider they are $300. Going on sale for $250, that leaves $50 for the center, and the MTX center is $100. Not too far above budget, and if I got lucky with open box or something it might work.

I've never heard the MTXs before. Everybody raves about their bass and clear and loud sound, but I've read reviews that complained about imaging and recessed mids and etchy highs, but great bass, which makes sense considering MTX makes car audio. You all know car audio, right? Boom, boom, boom, "****, ****", boom, boom, boom. Not saying all car audio is like that but it's a generalization.

RuSsMaN

I wouldn't get Yamaha speakers, not the current B&M Store models anyway. BAD BAD sound.

Check out the Tivoli shelf speakers at Tweeter. They start at $99/pair, and are worth every penny (imo). They use the same mid-bass that the Celestion F series used. I think the floorstander is $199/pair.

You could even just 'phantom' the center on the mains and do away with the center altogether.

Otherwise, I would just peice a used system together as the deals come along.

Cheers,
Russ

4 Tivoli shelf speakers =$200. Dayton 10" sub at PE =$99.

$300, done.

rs159

I was also thinking about the Tivolis, just neglected to mention that. And about the center, I dare you to try to explain to a 70 year old how your brain can locate a sound based on the time delay and tonal differences from going through your head and reflected off or passed through the flappy thing (pinnea?) of your ear. You can sit them in the sweet spot and show them what imaging is, but a week later you will hear "How come I only hear one speaker? The voices used to be right on the TV? I think they're broke!" So a center would be a nice thing to have, if not mandatory. Surrounds, I figure could be ommited, at least from the initial system.

mantis

Another vote for the Tivoli line.Great value and good sounding.They even have nice binding posts on the back,go figure....nice.

ncw

Originally posted by rs159


Really, Yamaha? I've honestly never heard low end Yammers before. Best Buy is just opening a new store in Harrisburg so I might take a little fun trip one of these days.

Yes, Yammers. It's decent for low budgets. You may not need a sub if you desire an F3 of 45hz. So let's say you spent $200 for the 3-way floorstanders with 8" woofers, that leaves $100 for the center, not impossible. Then if you find a couple of open boxes R15 or something, you might be procuring them for the surrounds without going much over the budget.

VR3

RS, find some BOSE on da cheap man! Bose is the end all, no substiture for the BOSE sound. IMO.

RuSsMaN

Another 'cheap' option: $179/free ship

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&User_ID=12821754&St=7365&St2=87968494&St3=52590856&DS_ID=3&Product_ID=15621&DID=7

They have it in black and cherry finish also.

Is that Polk $299 rig still an option? Seems tough to beat for the price.

Cheers,
Russ

Check out www.hometheaterdirect.com also.

VR3

Here are some good spookers for cheap...

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F002%5F001%5F022%5F000&product%5Fid=40%2D5037 - $100 Main speakers

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F002%5F001%5F022%5F000&product%5Fid=40%2D5025 - $50 main speakers or surrounds

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F002%5F001%5F022%5F000&product%5Fid=40%2D5028 $50 center channel

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F002%5F001%5F022%5F000&product%5Fid=40%2D5030 - $100 10 inch subwoofer

http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F002%5F001%5F022%5F000&product%5Fid=40%2D5023 - $100 8 inch sub

Go to your local ratshack, the one near me is having a MAJOR sale! So you can get all these speakers for alot less1

Main Speakers - 50.00
Surround Speakers - 50.00
Center - 50.00
Subwoofer - 100.00
HD Wire - 10.00 (50 feet)

Shizelbs

I have a pair of Radio Shack RCA speakers that I would love to get rid of. Maybe good surrounds?

dthomps

If it were me, I honestly would just buy the Polk system. I heard one at Circuit City, I dont remember which model, but it sounded good for what it was. They probably wont listen too loud anyway- and if you position the speakers right, I bet that it would work fine.

If you really are stuck on buying something else, I will give another vote for the Tivoli's. Great speakers for the price, although you wont have a center.

rs159

Originally posted by dthomps
If it were me, I honestly would just buy the Polk system. I heard one at Circuit City, I dont remember which model, but it sounded good for what it was. They probably wont listen too loud anyway- and if you position the speakers right, I bet that it would work fine.

If you really are stuck on buying something else, I will give another vote for the Tivoli's. Great speakers for the price, although you wont have a center.

Which polk system? The 15s or the RMs?

How do you mean the Tivolis wont have a center? Tivoli makes a center, maybe you mean overbudget? A couple Tivoli bookshelves (100), a center (100) and a sub (100) would add up just dandy (cable aside). Or maybe Tivoli towers (200) and a center 100) which also adds up and might be better considering the towers have dual 5 woofers and with the right power would sound clearer than a budget sub.

Believe it or not, but even my grandmother likes the look of a slim tower compared to minimonitors on stands.

Or maybe a bose am system?

rs159

The more I think about it the more I think I was right with option four. Start with the RM and upgrade if need be.

dthomps

Sorry, I guess I was a bit tired when I posted that. I did mean the RM system, it really would probably give you the best results for the money you want to spend, and have a whole 5.1 setup. I meant that like everyone else was saying that the Tivoli's were nice, but within your budget you couldnt get a center chanel. If you were into just going for the 3 main speakers you mentioned (the Tivoli towers and the center chanel) I bet you would be happiest with the results... but then again, how refined are their ears? For me, bang for the buck complete out the door would probably work fine for my grandparents, and I mean its not like we are talking about terrible speakers or anything. They are actually good speakers, quality little satellites, and I am sure that they will love them. Maybe you could even consider option 1 a little more, and throw a cheap car subwoofer in some MDF and paint it black... you never know. peace. Mike

rs159

Originally posted by dthomps
If you were into just going for the 3 main speakers you mentioned (the Tivoli towers and the center chanel) I bet you would be happiest with the results... but then again, how refined are their ears?

Not very, my grandmother's White Westinghouse (or some nonsense like that) shelf system has gotten the job done for a few years now, even though it can't top 75dB, it's (estimated, by me) F3 is somewhere around 200 even though the speakers are the size of RTi38s, and the whole thing weighs in at a whopping 8 pounds. I think the AM radio sounds better.

Hopefully, that will change with some listening of even the little system we are trying to throw together here. Also, like I said before, I'm worried about using small sats in a huge room.

rs159

What's the F3 on the Tivoli towers? I can't find it anywhere?

rs159

Also, the tweeter site says they are three ways with two woofers, but the specs say they have a 6" woofer and a 6" mid, so that makes them 2.5 way and not three, right?

RuSsMaN

I do believe they are 2.5 way also, although the Tivoli website does make them out to be a 3-way.

dlew308

CC still has the $299 deal, RM6005 & 10" Sub

rs159

Just a random question - if I did go with option 4 and used two extras for computer speakers or something and was left with one, about what would it sell for?

RuSsMaN

Huh? What is option 4, the Polk HTIB? If so, why would you have 2 extras?