Electricity/power into system

NJPOLKER
NJPOLKER Posts: 3,474
edited February 2010 in 2 Channel Audio
Just trying to get further into that damn hole.

OK, here we go. Some of you guys may remember when I had a humming/buzzing noise coming through my tweeters a few months ago. That was solved by rearranging how I had everything plugged into the outlets. Since then I bought some Signal Cable power cords and have them in the system now. All is great, well kind of. My TV and cable box are plugged into a separate outlet in the wall behind the system. My amp, pre and cdp are all plugged into a cheap power strip. The power strip is plugged into a different outlet than the TV and cable box which eliminated the humming/buzzing noise. Am I a **** :(:o or what for having my system plugged like that? Go ahead and let me have it, I can handle it.

Here are my questions/concerns
How much am I restricting the performance of my components by having them plugged in like that?

I guess I need a dedicated circuit and line from the electric panel to the back of my system. Do I buy the hospital grade outlets and have the electrician install them. Its about 20 feet from the panel to the system. Any idea what something like this will cost?

How will my system be protected? By the breaker in the electrical panel? I have about $3,500. into my amp, pre and cdp so I guess they should be protected.

I'm thinking I better address this before buying some monitor speakers to fool around with. Right?

Thanks in advance for all advice.
Post edited by NJPOLKER on
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Comments

  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 5,068
    edited January 2010
    Here's a great read for you...I've had the Son of Q model for years I wouldn't ever want to be without one. I'm even thinking about moving up the chain within their product line.
    http://www.equitech.com/
    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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  • Krazyz1
    Krazyz1 Posts: 256
    edited January 2010
    Yes. Dedicated system with hospital recept. Use a good power conditioner like a A.R.T. or APC/AV. If your goodies have I.E.C. power cords I suggest Monster Powerline 200 low noise cords.
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  • Amherst
    Amherst Posts: 695
    edited January 2010
    Why all the hubbub over hospital grade receptacles? What advantage are we trying to seek here?
    Parasound C1, T3, HCA-3500, HCA-2205A, P/DD1550, Pioneer DV-79avi, Oppo BDP-83, WD Media Server W/HDD,
    Dynaudio Contour 3.3, Dynaudio Contour T2.1, Polk OWM3, Polk DSW micropro 1000 (x2),
    Pioneer Kuro 50" Plasma, Phillips Pronto Control w/Niles HT-MSU.
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  • curved
    curved Posts: 664
    edited January 2010
    IMO, you need to run a dedicated circuit - http://www.tweekgeek.com/_e/AC_Receptacles/product/OyaideACReceptacle/Oyaide_AC_ReceptaclesDesigned_from_the_ground_up_for_audio_use.htm
    Living Room:....................[HTML] [/HTML] Zone 2 (Workout Room):
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  • Amherst
    Amherst Posts: 695
    edited January 2010
    curved wrote: »
    IMO, you need to run a dedicated circuit - http://www.tweekgeek.com/_e/AC_Receptacles/product/OyaideACReceptacle/Oyaide_AC_ReceptaclesDesigned_from_the_ground_up_for_audio_use.htm

    Somebody is getting really rich on this one, $90. What performance aspect do you seek from a receptacle?

    OyaideACReceptacle_1147374471.JPG
    Parasound C1, T3, HCA-3500, HCA-2205A, P/DD1550, Pioneer DV-79avi, Oppo BDP-83, WD Media Server W/HDD,
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  • Krazyz1
    Krazyz1 Posts: 256
    edited January 2010
    You can buy a hospital grade at Lowe's for 10.00. Advantage is better quality copper , 3 contact points on your plug , and isolated ground. Sure there are ones that rape you on price but research will save you money. Next time your in the hospital in critical care and your hooked up to some very sensitive high tech equipt. supporting your life , just tell them any outlet will do. They also make them in different grades. Some are silver plated. The needs in the lab or X - ray room differ as the same in a general recovery room.
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  • Krazyz1
    Krazyz1 Posts: 256
    edited January 2010
    Mr. NJ POLKER. Food for thought. You say items are plugged into different recepts. Are they all on the same circuit? What appliances are sharing that circuit. Modems , wireless modems , microwaves to mention just a few put dirt back into your electric line. That is 1 of the reasons people are saying dedicated service. Then if your gonna take it that far , use a quality power conditioner to clean what you have. I have a Buckcherry DVD that the sound quality SUCKED!!!. I installed a A.R.T. power conditioner WITH APF filtering. Now the DVD sounds as good as the CD wich sound quality greatly improved. Garbage in garbage out , but no conditioning or filtering is garbage AMPLIFIED!.
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  • Amherst
    Amherst Posts: 695
    edited January 2010
    Krazyz1 wrote: »
    You can buy a hospital grade at Lowe's for 10.00. Advantage is better quality copper , 3 contact points on your plug , and isolated ground. Sure there are ones that rape you on price but research will save you money. Next time your in the hospital in critical care and your hooked up to some very sensitive high tech equipt. supporting your life , just tell them any outlet will do. They also make them in different grades. Some are silver plated. The needs in the lab or X - ray room differ as the same in a general recovery room.

    There are NO homes with an isolated ground system to be able to incorporate a hospital grade receptacle into. Which is what I was really headed tword to point out. Therefore a waste to seek out. Most standard spec grade receptacles will more than suffice and cost about half your hamilton.

    There are many,many,many receptacles that will provide proper contact for full load situations in a home/AVR situation, according to Underwriters Laboratory all of those bearing their approval. Although I personally do not buy into that.

    Save your cash.
    Parasound C1, T3, HCA-3500, HCA-2205A, P/DD1550, Pioneer DV-79avi, Oppo BDP-83, WD Media Server W/HDD,
    Dynaudio Contour 3.3, Dynaudio Contour T2.1, Polk OWM3, Polk DSW micropro 1000 (x2),
    Pioneer Kuro 50" Plasma, Phillips Pronto Control w/Niles HT-MSU.
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  • NJPOLKER
    NJPOLKER Posts: 3,474
    edited January 2010
    Amherst wrote: »
    Why all the hubbub over hospital grade receptacles? What advantage are we trying to seek here?

    Since you have to ask you should not participate in this thread. Thanks anyway.
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  • NJPOLKER
    NJPOLKER Posts: 3,474
    edited January 2010
    Krazyz1 wrote: »
    Mr. NJ POLKER. Food for thought. You say items are plugged into different recepts. Are they all on the same circuit? What appliances are sharing that circuit. Modems , wireless modems , microwaves to mention just a few put dirt back into your electric line. That is 1 of the reasons people are saying dedicated service. Then if your gonna take it that far , use a quality power conditioner to clean what you have. I have a Buckcherry DVD that the sound quality SUCKED!!!. I installed a A.R.T. power conditioner WITH APF filtering. Now the DVD sounds as good as the CD wich sound quality greatly improved. Garbage in garbage out , but no conditioning or filtering is garbage AMPLIFIED!.


    I will check on what all is on that circuit.

    I suspect I am pulling a lot of current. I don't want to restrict the performance because of it.

    You are correct in stating "**** in **** out" and some around here don't get it.


    Krazy, I am not busting your balls but you should use spell check. It will pick up some of the typo's. I know that because my spelling sucks as does my typing skills.
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  • Amherst
    Amherst Posts: 695
    edited January 2010
    NJPOLKER wrote: »
    Since you have to ask you should not participate in this thread. Thanks anyway.

    :eek: Really???:eek:

    Are you afraid of information?
    Parasound C1, T3, HCA-3500, HCA-2205A, P/DD1550, Pioneer DV-79avi, Oppo BDP-83, WD Media Server W/HDD,
    Dynaudio Contour 3.3, Dynaudio Contour T2.1, Polk OWM3, Polk DSW micropro 1000 (x2),
    Pioneer Kuro 50" Plasma, Phillips Pronto Control w/Niles HT-MSU.
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  • concealer404
    concealer404 Posts: 7,440
    edited January 2010
    Amherst wrote: »
    :eek: Really???:eek:

    Are you afraid of information?

    No. He's not. But the information that you kindof sortof not really offered was the exact opposite of his question.

    He's not asking for reasons or information on why he SHOULDN'T BOTHER doing this. He's made up his mind. Give information pertaining to that, or get out.

    If you want to argue about it, start a thread or go dig up one of the hundreds that are out there on this. While you're at it, there's some cable and Emotiva threads that could use some attention, too.


    Drew, Krazy seems to be on the right track, and exactly what i would do if i could. Unfortunately, i have to live with just a power conditioner. :(
    I don't read the newsssspaperssss because dey aaaallllllllll...... have ugly print.

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  • Amherst
    Amherst Posts: 695
    edited January 2010
    concealer404 wrote: »
    No. He's not. But the information that you kindof sortof not really offered was the exact opposite of his question.

    He's not asking for reasons or information on why he SHOULDN'T BOTHER doing this. He's made up his mind. Give information pertaining to that, or get out.

    If you want to argue about it, start a thread or go dig up one of the hundreds that are out there on this. While you're at it, there's some cable and Emotiva threads that could use some attention, too.


    Drew, Krazy seems to be on the right track, and exactly what i would do if i could. Unfortunately, i have to live with just a power conditioner. :(

    Didn't mean to piss you or anyone else off. My apology. Gone
    Parasound C1, T3, HCA-3500, HCA-2205A, P/DD1550, Pioneer DV-79avi, Oppo BDP-83, WD Media Server W/HDD,
    Dynaudio Contour 3.3, Dynaudio Contour T2.1, Polk OWM3, Polk DSW micropro 1000 (x2),
    Pioneer Kuro 50" Plasma, Phillips Pronto Control w/Niles HT-MSU.
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  • DarqueKnight
    DarqueKnight Posts: 6,765
    edited January 2010
    NJPOLKER wrote: »
    How much am I restricting the performance of my components by having them plugged in like that?

    The problems that could arise are:

    1. Ground loops due to differences in voltage between the two AC circuits and
    2. Power demands and noise from other devices on the circuit.

    For #1, if you are not hearing hum, you should be OK.

    For #2, even if you are not hearing hum or other noise from florescent lights, dimmer switches, electric motors, your audio electronics may be starved for power by the demands of a refrigerator, air conditioning unit, etc. on the same circuit. This can cause a loss of dynamics and clarity in music reproduction.

    My two channel and home theater systems are each served by three dedicated AC circuits apiece. I haven't had any ground loop issues with the two channel system. I did get ground loop hum when I changed two of the home theater receptacles from Power Port Premiers to Soloist Premiers. The ground loops went away when I removed the ground pins of the power cables plugged into the outlets.
    NJPOLKER wrote: »
    I guess I need a dedicated circuit and line from the electric panel to the back of my system. Do I buy the hospital grade outlets and have the electrician install them. Its about 20 feet from the panel to the system. Any idea what something like this will cost?

    Expect anywhere from $200 to $800 per AC circuit. The cost depends on the going rates in your area and the difficulty of the installation. I paid $425 per additional circuit. In my case, installation was moderately difficult due to the required drilling through the firebreaks in my walls and the difficulty in accessing the locations to drill through the wall caps. Get a licensed, reputable electrician to do the work (unless you are able to do the work yourself and conform to building codes).
    NJPOLKER wrote: »
    How will my system be protected? By the breaker in the electrical panel? I have about $3,500. into my amp, pre and cdp so I guess they should be protected.

    The breaker will protect your gear from power surges resulting from things within the home. You need to be more concerned with surges resulting from outside the home like lightning strikes, surges that result from utility company equipment malfunctions and coincidental surges resulting from a large number of people in your area turning on devices at the same time (rare, but it happens).

    Power conditioners and surge protectors between the wall and your gear protect against outside surges. You can also install a surge protector at the breaker box. Even if your equipment is protected behind power conditioners and surge protectors, a surge protector at the breaker box is added insurance. They are not expensive and are easy to install, but again, you will need to have a licensed electrician install it. I use a combination of power conditioners and breaker box surge protection.
    Proud and loyal citizen of the Digital Domain and Solid State Country!
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  • headrott
    headrott Posts: 5,496
    edited January 2010
    pearsall001 wrote: »
    Here's a great read for you...I've had the Son of Q model for years I wouldn't ever want to be without one. I'm even thinking about moving up the chain within their product line.
    http://www.equitech.com/

    I heave read enough great reviews about these conditioners, I bought a used one (the 1RQ). Can't wait to hook it up to see (actually hear) the difference! Gonna have to sell my monster 5100MKII now.:D
    Relayer-Big-O-Poster.jpg
    Taken from a recent Audioholics reply regarding "Club Polk" and Polk speakers:
    "I'm yet to hear a Polk speaker that merits more than a sentence and 60 seconds discussion." :\
    My response is: If you need 60 seconds to respond in one sentence, you probably should't be evaluating Polk speakers.....

    "Green leaves reveal the heart spoken Khatru"- Jon Anderson

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  • lightman1
    lightman1 Posts: 10,788
    edited January 2010
    I ran three dedicated 20A circuits with isolated ground hospital grade recepts at Trey's house for his gear. He said the difference was night and day from the way it was before. No noise at all bleeding into the goodies.
    Dig it?
    Gimme a buzz NJ and i'll pack up the tools....:cool:
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  • Krazyz1
    Krazyz1 Posts: 256
    edited January 2010
    Yes my spelling sucks. But hey , some of other comments on other posts were 2:30 AM. LOL. I will do my best to get my poo together on the spelling. I gracefully bow to all that caught my errors.
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  • Krazyz1
    Krazyz1 Posts: 256
    edited January 2010
    I beg to differ on houses being properly grounded. Some electrical contractors cheat and think the neutral is a ground. It is a return. Buy a ground rod , pound it in the ground , put assc. ground bar in your breaker box and wala! Do it on industrial machinery all the time. Copper is expensive. Why pull 100' of ground wire with your conductors. Cost is high and most industrial power panels aren't properly grounded anyhow. Remember , ground is suppose to be a safety. So if your running a 100A. circuit better use ground wire that will carry same or higher load.
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  • Krazyz1
    Krazyz1 Posts: 256
    edited January 2010
    Most breaker panel conditioners/spike protection are throw aways. Cutler-Hammer makes some nice units you can replace the module. You keep the base and plug in a new protection block.
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  • Andy_
    Andy_ Posts: 15
    edited January 2010
    DarqueKnight wrote: »
    The breaker will protect your gear from power surges resulting from things within the home. You need to be more concerned with surges resulting from outside the home like lightning strikes, surges that result from utility company equipment malfunctions and coincidental surges resulting from a large number of people in your area turning on devices at the same time (rare, but it happens).

    This is a subject at work where we have all agreed to disagree. I would argue that a circuit breaker is designed to protect the wire and is NOT designed to protect anything plugged into the circuit. The basis of my argument is that if a given size wire is exposed to an amperage above its rating for continuous period of time, it gets VERY hot. Hot enough to catch its surroundings on fire.

    In fact, if you dig into the NEC you will see details about how a given circuit should not be loaded above 80% of its rated value for a period of greater than 3 hours. This is due to the heat generated by the current moving through the wire. It has nothing to do with protecting the equipment plugged into the circuit.

    While it is true that a surge or spike in current will (most of the time) trip a breaker, ultimately this is not its intended design. I think of it more as an added benefit.

    As to where that leaves you is your decision. Feel free to invest in surge protection equipment and/or line conditioning equipment. It probably helps and certainly does not hurt. Also, it looks really cool.

    For me, I just make sure my homeowners' insurance is up to date and my deductible is nice and low.

    Just my $0.02

    -Andy
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  • unc2701
    unc2701 Posts: 3,587
    edited January 2010
    Install a new circuit, 20amp, and put a brickwall on it:
    http://brickwall.thomasnet.com/item/industrial-surge-protectors/panel-mount-unit/pwp20?&forward=1

    On the outlet, put the surge/noise filter device of your choice. Personally, I use leviton hospital grade surge outlets:
    http://www.leviton.com/OA_HTML/ibeCCtpSctDspRte.jsp?section=22335&minisite=10028

    The brickwall will supress damn near any line surge; a MOV surge protector will pick up the rest. For most gear, you've got to be running it full-tilt to stress a 20-amp line, apart from the initial in-rush current, but most the cost of installation will be drilling holes and pulling wire, NOT the materials, so run one more line that you think you need and you'll be glad you did.
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  • NJPOLKER
    NJPOLKER Posts: 3,474
    edited January 2010
    I guess its a good thing my system and panel are close, about 20 feet apart, and the wires can easily be run from one to the other.
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  • doctorcilantro
    doctorcilantro Posts: 2,028
    edited January 2010
    How loud a hum were you hearing?

    I have some minor hum on my speakers from my tube amp, but I have to stick my ear right to the driver?

    94Db/w Omegas and an Eastern Electric tube-rectified power amp. It's pretty quiet.
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  • Krazyz1
    Krazyz1 Posts: 256
    edited February 2010
    Mr. doctorcilantro. Had same issue with my CROWN amp and it had a ground lift switch and could still hear very slight hum with ears to speakers. Put a 3-2 prong adapter and hum went away. Worth a shot if your interested
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  • TNRabbit
    TNRabbit Posts: 2,168
    edited February 2010
    You need a PS Audio Power Plant. Or two.
    TNRabbit
    NO Polk Audio Equipment :eek:
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