When is a Center Speaker Not a Center Speaker?

garypen

When it's a bookshelf speaker laying on its side.

Just an FYI to anybody who can't fit a traditional center speaker in their TV stand/credenza. All three sections of mine are designed for 17" equipment, not the larger width of almost any decent center speaker. So...

I am using a single Monitor 40 laying on it's side. And, it sounds great. In fact, it's specs are better than the CS1, CS2, or CS10, and on par with the CS20. And, it matches my Monitor 70's seamlessly across the front.

Of course, you have to buy a pair. But, at $129 for the pair, it's still cheaper than one CS20. And, you can always sell the extra one to somebody else with the same space constraints. (I plan on listing mine in the classifieds, as soon as I reach 25 posts.)

I was doing the same thing with my last set of speakers, as well. But, because of the grill design, it looked like a bookshelf speaker on its side. The Monitor 40, otoh, looks great on its side. Only if you look closely at the logo, is it noticeable.

I'm sure I'm not the first to do this. But, I haven't seen it mentioned here. So, I thought I'd mention it. I hope it helps someone.

Face

A standard bookshelf and center channel horizontal and vertical dispersion patterns are different. You may or may not notice a difference, but a standard bookshelf on it's side is not optimal.

wutadumsn23

Face wrote: »

A standard bookshelf and center channel horizontal and vertical dispersion patterns are different. You may or may not notice a difference, but a standard bookshelf on it's side is not optimal.

+1,000 Typically it's not recommended, but glad it is working for you. On the other hand if you had a CS2, you would never go back to a Monitor 40 laying on it's side, I promise, lol.

-Jeff

cnh

You think a M40 makes a better center and has better sound than a CS2 and that it's on a par with a CS20...Huh? The CS2 is just a former generation CS20? Both have 6.5 inch drivers and not the 5" drivers found in a 40...besides FACE is right about the dispersion patterns..

But hey, if you like it you like it!

cnh

wutadumsn23

cnh wrote: »

You think a M40 makes a better center and has better sound than a CS2 and that it's on a par with a CS20...Huh? The CS2 is just a former generation CS20? Both have 6.5 inch drivers and not the 5" drivers found in a 40...besides FACE is right about the dispersion patterns..

But hey, if you like it you like it!

cnh

+1,000

-Jeff

garypen

Face wrote: »

A standard bookshelf and center channel horizontal and vertical dispersion patterns are different. You may or may not notice a difference, but a standard bookshelf on it's side is not optimal.

Perhaps you can point me to some sort of graphical representation of the differences between horizontal and vertical dispersion from the dome tweeter used in the Monitor series. (A dome tweeter that sits in a round trim ring.) That would certainly help reinforce your point, and enable me to understand it better.

cnh wrote: »

You think a M40 makes a better center and has better sound than a CS2 and that it's on a par with a CS20...Huh? The CS2 is just a former generation CS20? Both have 6.5 inch drivers and not the 5" drivers found in a 40...besides FACE is right about the dispersion patterns..

I wrote none of those things. Does being an "audiophile" adversely affect reading comprehension? I guess it's true what they say about the blind having a heightened sense of hearing.

I merely pointed out the specs, and the fact I thought it sounded quite good. I also clearly pointed out that I am constrained by the size of my TV credenza opening, and this was an excellent workaround for it.

wutadumsn23 wrote: »

+1,000

-Jeff

How much is 1000 minus Jeff?


The bottom line is that for anybody who feels they need to settle for a lesser quality center speaker to fit inside of their entertainment furniture, or place a decent center on top of the furniture in front of their display, there is a viable alternative.

garypen

wutadumsn23 wrote: »

+1,000 Typically it's not recommended, but glad it is working for you. On the other hand if you had a CS2, you would never go back to a Monitor 40 laying on it's side, I promise, lol.

-Jeff

If I was physically able to place it correctly, I probably would have gotten that very model.

Conradicles

garypen wrote: »

How much is 1000 minus Jeff?

hehe good one. I like this newb. Welcome to Club Polk!

garypen

Danke.

garypen

BTW, I still haven't heard anyone explain why the Monitor 40 sound quality would be negatively affected by horizontal placement.

Please. Somebody. Explain to me in technical terms why the symmetrically placed mid-woofers and the centrally located dome tweeter would behave differently in a horizontal alignment. Will the sound pour out of the rear port and make a mess on the floor?

It is an outstanding bookshelf speaker. And, there is no reason it would make a bad center. None. The oddly negative kneejerk reaction to this thread has irked me me a little. That's right. I'm irked.

I will bet a dollar that there is no discernible difference in sound quality between vertical and horizontal placement of the Monitor 40.

I will also bet a dollar that it sounds as good and probably better in that placement as a CS1 or CS10.

And, as for the 6.5 vs 5.25 comment by CNH. Apparently, he is not familiar with how cabinet volume affects low end response. (Perhaps that is why the Monitor 40 is rated down to 57Hz -3db vs the 60 of the CS2 or 58 of the CS20) With those specs, and the fact that it uses the same tweeter, it quite possibly sounds as good as the CS2. Although, I might not be as quick to bet the dollar on that one.

nguyendot

With the monitor 40 you shouldn't have much problem with dispersion as there are no directional waveguides surrounding the tweeter or woofers. Dispersion should be the same on the horizontal and the vertical axes. If you have M40s on your sides it would make a decent center. Ideally the best sound comes from all matched speakers on your front stage. Some people on here even use two, I believe someone uses two LSI9s as their center stage.

The only problems that come from side placement of the M40's is time alignment of the drivers. This only matters when you have them in stereo however, (left and right speakers only). Since it is in the middle, all the drivers should be about equidistant, so the point is mostly moot.

wutadumsn23

Conradicles wrote: »

hehe good one. I like this newb. Welcome to Club Polk!

I must be a little slow, I don't get it.

Bottom line is, if you are happy then that is all that matters. I was merely stating my opinion.

-Jeff

wutadumsn23

garypen wrote: »

How much is 1000 minus Jeff?

I must be a little slow, I don't get it.

Anywhoot the bottom line is, if you are happy then that is all that matters. I was merely stating my opinion.

-Jeff

garypen

nguyendot wrote: »

With the monitor 40 you shouldn't have much problem with dispersion as there are no directional waveguides surrounding the tweeter or woofers. Dispersion should be the same on the horizontal and the vertical axes. If you have M40s on your sides it would make a decent center. Ideally the best sound comes from all matched speakers on your front stage. Some people on here even use two, I believe someone uses two LSI9s as their center stage.

The only problems that come from side placement of the M40's is time alignment of the drivers. This only matters when you have them in stereo however, (left and right speakers only). Since it is in the middle, all the drivers should be about equidistant, so the point is mostly moot.

Badabing!

It's good to see someone stop, think, and use actual knowledge before posting a reply.

I would certainly prefer if all components matched, and would have probably chosen a CS2 to go with my Monitor 70's. But, at least the tweeters are matched. And, even though the mid-woofers are one step down, and thus aren't a perfect match, the cabinet dimensions bring the actual low-end response down comparable to that of the CS2/20. So, it's not a bad compromise in exchange for the ability to fit in my TV stand.

garypen

wutadumsn23 wrote: »

I must be a little slow, I don't get it.

-Jeff

You have a hyphen before your name in your signature. It looks like a minus sign, especially when following a "+1000".

wutadumsn23

garypen wrote: »

It's good to see someone stop, think, and use actual knowledge before posting a reply.

Geez, ease up dude, not all of us are as smart as you after all. As I said, I was just stating my opinion, in no way was I trying to pass it as fact, as you are.

-Jeff

cnh

garypen wrote: »

Badabing!

It's good to see someone stop, think, and use actual knowledge before posting a reply.

I would certainly prefer if all components matched, and would have probably chosen a CS2 to go with my Monitor 70's. But, at least the tweeters are matched. And, even though the mid-woofers are one step down, and thus aren't a perfect match, the cabinet dimensions bring the actual low-end response down comparable to that of the CS2/20. So, it's not a bad compromise in exchange for the ability to fit in my TV stand.

Glad you like it...but while we''re 'stopping' to think....maybe we should also stop to 'listen'?

Have you 'actually' heard all of the speakers you mention above because some of us 'have' and we are not speaking from no experience with them...not to rain on your parade!

You like the M40s more power to you. I've heard all of these speakers and cannot agree....how's that for stopping to 'listen'? Specs do not ultimately determine what is most important about the sound of a speaker BTW.

Don't mean to be a PITA but it just might be true that a few people here may have some experience with most of what Polk makes!

cnh

wutadumsn23

cnh wrote: »

Have you 'actually' heard all of the speakers you mention above because some of us 'have' and we are not speaking from no experience with them...not to rain on your parade!

You like the M40s more power to you. I've heard all of these speakers and cannot agree....how's that for stopping to 'listen'? Specs do not ultimately determine what is most important about the sound of a speaker BTW.

Don't mean to be a PITA but it just might be true that a few people here may have some experience with most of what Polk makes!

cnh

That's all I'm saying. I have heard the 40's and the CS2 and know their capabilities, and their downfalls.

-Jeff

garypen

The problem was not that anyone said they preferred one model over another. The problem was the kneejerk, nearly universal condemnation of using a Monitor 40 in a horizontal position.

Another thing these replies totally ignored was the reason I was using it that way, which was due to size constraints, not because I preferred this model over the others. I was being castigated for choosing an M40 over a C2, which wasn't the case.

So, instead of saying what a poor decision it was for me to choose to use an M40 over a dedicated center speaker, perhaps some thanks were in order for sharing a decent compromise solution with those forum members who might be suffering similar space constraints, and were thinking of buying a poorer sounding center speaker to fit in their limited space.

cnh - There was no need for me to listen to those other models, as they wouldn't have physically fit in my space, which I had mentioned more than once. But, if you would have taken the time to think, you would have realized that.

wutadumsn23

I am not going to continue to go back and forth on this, there are many more things I could say. One thing I have learned being in this forum for over a year, is that no matter how many times you may state your OPINION, it isn't going to change anyones mind one way or another. Was mere offering my opinion based on my experiences, and what I had heard from other people about using non traditional centers without sucess. Glad you are happy, and it works for you. Congrats on being the first person on my "list"

-Jeff- (better?)

halo71

garypen wrote: »

perhaps some thanks were in order for sharing a decent compromise solution with those forum members who might be suffering similar space constraints, and were thinking of buying a poorer sounding center speaker to fit in their limited space.

Hell, maybe I am confused. Anyone can turn a speaker on its side. If space is a constraint I would have bought a kit from parts exchange and built a center. Who is gonna want to buy '1' bookshelf now?

everpress

While you can use a window as the main entrance into a house, it's not necessarily what it was designed for. Sure, technically it's fine and produces similar results. You open it, step in, and wow, you're inside. However that's not what it was designed to do and there are much more realistic approaches, for example a door. Not only do you go into the house in a way the architects designed for you to, you also don't look like a ****.

wutadumsn23

everpress wrote: »

While you can use a window as the main entrance into a house, it's not necessarily what it was designed for. Sure, technically it's fine and produces similar results. You open it, step in, and wow, you're inside. However that's not what it was designed to do and there are much more realistic approaches, for example a door. Not only do you go into the house in a way the architects designed for you to, you also don't look like a ****.

LOL, great post!! Couldn't have said/explained it better if I tried.

-Jeff

cnh

garypen wrote: »

The problem was not that anyone said they preferred one model over another. The problem was the kneejerk, nearly universal condemnation of using a Monitor 40 in a horizontal position.

Another thing these replies totally ignored was the reason I was using it that way, which was due to size constraints, not because I preferred this model over the others. I was being castigated for choosing an M40 over a C2, which wasn't the case.

So, instead of saying what a poor decision it was for me to choose to use an M40 over a dedicated center speaker, perhaps some thanks were in order for sharing a decent compromise solution with those forum members who might be suffering similar space constraints, and were thinking of buying a poorer sounding center speaker to fit in their limited space.

cnh - There was no need for me to listen to those other models, as they wouldn't have physically fit in my space, which I had mentioned more than once. But, if you would have taken the time to think, you would have realized that.

Looks like you're going to make a lot of friends here because you can "listen" so very well. No one told you that you COULD FIT THESE SPEAKERS INTO YOUR UNIT--NOW--DID WE?

What's your problem! People are only trying to give you some advice you don't have to 'listen' or 'think'. You find ONE person above who agrees with you and you're off to the races. What about all the others? I guess they're just thoughtless....right. Even though they've helped and Welcomed Hundreds onto this site!

Everpress seems to be doing both above.

I'm not trying to pull your chain my man. As I've said numerous times if 'you' are cool with it why worry about what anyone else is doing or not doing?

Where is that 'attitude' coming from? Chill already. It's all cool and it is ONLY audio!

cnh

Face

garypen wrote: »

It's good to see someone stop, think, and use actual knowledge before posting a reply.

You know where you could put that Monitor 40?

MANSKITO

Book shelf speaker on its side...........

*UNCONTROLLABLE RAGE!!!!!!!!!!!*

Actually i can't belive i never thought of that. Oh well too late now.

Nah i think your right on, if it was a horn loaded tweeter might be different but with a dome I belive it would be the same.

But there might be differences in volume (kind of important due to dialog coming from center) because generally center speakers have a higher sensitivity by a 1 or 2 Db.

However not a big deal kind of a cool idea.

MANSKITO

Face wrote: »

You know where you could put that Monitor 40?

lawl I bet i know.

tonyb

Face wrote: »

You know where you could put that Monitor 40?

Kids... do not try this at home. See your Proctologist to make sure your **** can handle such activity. Many side effects could occur.

Sorry Face, had to throw in the standard Club Polk disclaimer.:)

garypen

Face wrote: »

You know where you could put that Monitor 40?

In my TV credenza? But, I already put it there. Didn't I mention that?

madnod

as it was mentioned above in a ideal scenario ur front stage should be made of 3 identical speakers, but due to obvious reasions this is not the case.

as for the sound dispersions there are alot of talk that a MTM (midrange, tweeter, midrange) center speaker has a limited dispersion patern and this is being tweaked by slight lifting the center horizontal axis of the tweeter and some porting in the enclosure (that's why most of the centers have the tweeter on the higher edge of the enclosure).

howerver if there is anything to not recomand the M40 as a center is that it might not simpl be able to handle the dialog as it should and that the M70 will give it a hard time.

more about this can be found in the below:

http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=89614

garypen

everpress wrote: »

While you can use a window as the main entrance into a house, it's not necessarily what it was designed for. Sure, technically it's fine and produces similar results. You open it, step in, and wow, you're inside. However that's not what it was designed to do and there are much more realistic approaches, for example a door. Not only do you go into the house in a way the architects designed for you to, you also don't look like a ****.

What if the HOA didn't allow doors. Or, the dimensions or construction of the house didn't allow for a standard door. And, what if you found a window that worked about as good as a standard door, that was acceptable to the HOA and worked with the construction of the house?

I would think the guy that tried to ignore those limitations, and still try and use the traditional door regardless of the above, would be the one looking retarded.

wutadumsn23 wrote: »

LOL, great post!! Couldn't have said/explained it better if I tried.

-Jeff

You need to improve your 'splaining skills then, minus Jeff.

cnh wrote: »

What's your problem! People are only trying to give you some advice you don't have to 'listen' or 'think'. You find ONE person above who agrees with you and you're off to the races. What about all the others? I guess they're just thoughtless....right. Even though they've helped and Welcomed Hundreds onto this site!

Let's look at the "advice", shall we. The first reply said I was doing something wrong by placing a Monitor 40 on its side because of dispersion characteristics and such. The implication, of course, is that I didn't understand those characteristics. That "advice" was totally, completely, and utterly incorrect.

The replies that followed were basically dittohead "+bazillion" nonsense. So, yes, mostly thoughtless in that they didn't address the main issue, and they perpetuated technical misinformation.

BTW, the one reply that "agreed" with me was the only one correctly pointing out that horizontal placement would not adversely affect the audio quality. It was not opinion based on supposition and myth. It was opinion based on science. It also didn't get into a "bookshelf vs dedicated center", as the poster understood that was not the issue.

cnh wrote: »

Everpress seems to be doing both above.

Not really. Again, he ignores the basic point of my original post, and resorts to a "bookshelf vs dedicated center" argument.

OTOH, Halo has offered actual advice. He understood the basic issue, and offered advice based on the situation. He didn't imply I was ignorant about speaker placement or speaker technology in general. He came up with an alternate solution. I disagree with his solution for what I feel are valid reasons. But, I accept it as a valid opinion.

cnh wrote: »

I'm not trying to pull your chain my man. As I've said numerous times if 'you' are cool with it why worry about what anyone else is doing or not doing?

Where is that 'attitude' coming from? Chill already. It's all cool and it is ONLY audio!

The attitude is coming from the implication that I didn't know what I was doing. It was rude and condescending. Just because my username says "newbie" under it, doesn't mean I'm a newb to audio. Far from it. It merely means I'm a newb to owning Polk speakers, or more accurately to being a member of this forum.

BTW, I am not worried about what anyone else is doing, other than to offer a helpful tip to those who may be suffering from space constraints in their center speaker placement. I am also open to valid opinions and advice, and am quite appreciative of both, as is evident in my thread regarding AVR upgrade choices.