BLURAY Player

cnh

tonyb wrote: »

You would be surprised at how many don't have hdmi 1.3 avr's. personally, I would never buy a componant without analog outputs. Thats just me though. Besides, if you buy anything now with hdmi1.3, it will be dated allready with hdmi1.4 comming out soon. With analog outputs, you don't have to worry about it as much, for the audio side anyway. Analog gives you the option of seperating the audio and video in one machine instead of just combining the two with one hdmi output. Downside in having analog outputs....none...upside is you may not have to invest in a new receiver with every technology change.

Point taken....but regarding a PS3 it's not that relevant since it mostly does DVD and Blu-ray over HDMI. Would it be better with analog out...not really since it doesn't have the best DACs in the world.

Of course you'd want to have both on your AVR, I was not suggesting you wouldn't but just that a lot of people 'also' have HDMI....Look if I have HDMI then almost 'everyone' has it....because I am slow to adapt.

cnh

danz1906

Blackhawk Down.......CloverField

tonyb

cnh wrote: »

Point taken....but regarding a PS3 it's not that relevant since it mostly does DVD and Blu-ray over HDMI. Would it be better with analog out...not really since it doesn't have the best DACs in the world.

Of course you'd want to have both on your AVR, I was not suggesting you wouldn't but just that a lot of people 'also' have HDMI....Look if I have HDMI then almost 'everyone' has it....because I am slow to adapt.

cnh

For a PS3...sorry, thought we were talking in general about bdp's. I see no reason for analog outputs on a PS3. Unless you don't have a hdmi compatable receiver. See what I mean. As far as any benefit to SQ between the two outputs, I would say none, some may argue that point though. Also think re-sale value.

cheddar

keeneyrm01 wrote: »

The lack of analog 7.1 outputs only really matters if you're using a receiver that doesn't support the lossless formats and have HDMI. The 7.1 outs let the blu-ray player do the decoding on its own and sent the already decoded sound directly to the receiver.

Just to be clear here, you are talking about converting, not what is commonly referred to as decoding. It's a common mistake.

Decoding is the process where a TrueHD or DTS-HD MA compressed file is uncompressed (like unzipping a computer file that was compressed to save space). The new PCM file can then be sent over HDMI 1.1 and above to a compatible receiver. HDMI 1.3 is only required to bitstream. No digital information is lost, and the AVR will add its own Digital to Analog conversion (DAC) step to prepare an analog signal that can be amplified to the speakers. Using analog outs means that the player must use its own internal chips to do the D/A conversion. If the AVR needs to apply further digital processing (surround sound formats etc.), the analog signal must be converted back and forth again by the AVR. Each conversion is lossy since it's no longer digital and different DAC chips can impart their own sound to the result at each step.

cheddar

tonyb wrote: »

Downside in having analog outputs....none...upside is you may not have to invest in a new receiver with every technology change.

Except, of course, for not being able to access the processing in the AVR for things like Digital to Analog conversion. When you use analog outs, you are bypassing a lot of the processing you paid good money for in the AVR. If you have a high end blu-ray player, with expensive internal components, you may get equal or better performance out of your player. But if you have a cheap player, your AVR might have better processing.

Probably not a big issue for most when watching a movie. But for playing music (and there are even a few audio only blu-rays around now) it may make a difference.

tonyb

cheddar wrote: »

Except, of course, for not being able to access the processing in the AVR for things like Digital to Analog conversion. When you use analog outs, you are bypassing a lot of the processing you paid good money for in the AVR. If you have a high end blu-ray player, with expensive internal components, you may get equal or better performance out of your player. But if you have a cheap player, your AVR might have better processing.

Probably not a big issue for most when watching a movie. But for playing music (and there are even a few audio only blu-rays around now) it may make a difference.

Kinda sorta... Once a player decodes and sends by analog to a receiver, the receiver just passes it on as no d/a convertion is necessary. Now wether or not which componant has the better dac is strictly on a componant by componant issue. If your avr does not decode the new formats, you have no choice but to use analog outputs of the bdp, that is if it has them. Your same arguement can be had for buying two componants that both decode new formats, but your only going to use one or the other, so really your spending money you don't need to.

cheddar

tonyb wrote: »

If your avr does not decode the new formats, you have no choice but to use analog outputs of the bdp, that is if it has them. Your same arguement can be had for buying two componants that both decode new formats, but your only going to use one or the other, so really your spending money you don't need to.

Completely untrue. You also seem to be confused by the difference between decoding and DAC processing. As long as your AVR has at least HDMI 1.1, a compatible blu-ray player can DECODE (unzip the compressed TrueHD and DTS-HD MA) and send it out as PCM over HDMI. No analog outs needed. And for uncompressed PCM (the third lossless blu-ray format), AVRs 'decoding' capability is irrelevant as this is sent over HDMI as PCM anyways.

Using the analog outs just means that you take this PCM and perform the extra step of Digital to Analog conversion in the player instead of in the AVR. This step is necessary because eventhough the player and the AVR can speak 'digital' to each other, speakers are pure analog and must have an amplified analog signal sent to them to function.

tonyb

Oh, I'm not confused....but I think we are talking about different things. If you have a player that can decode everything,and has analog outputs, why do you need an avr also that can decode everything ? Assuming your avr has analog inputs of coarse.

Secondly, if all the conversion is done in the player with analog outputs, you are not useing the dac in the avr. With alot of people buying sub 1000 buck receivers, I'm willing to bet most players 300 bucks and up, can do d/a conversion just as good if not better.

Two basic statements....I take it you don't agree ?

cheddar

If you want to continue to mush DECODING together with DIGITAL to ANALOG CONVERSION (DAC), there's not much I can do to help you except tell you that they are entirely different processes which use DIFFERENT chips for DIFFERENT purposes. It is entirely possible to have expensive high quality DAC chips in an AVR WITHOUT any lossless DECODING capabilities at all.

The fact that people use analog outs as a workaround for the problem of backwards compatibility with blu-ray players can be confusing for people such as yourself, but they are really two seperate processes. DECODING TrueHD and DTS-HD MA is a simple digital process of UNCOMPRESSING the DIGITAL information contained in the two codecs and has NOTHING to do -- no connection whatsoever -- to the step of DIGITAL to ANALOG CONVERSION. DAC issues predate blu-ray lossless DECODING by decades and audiophiles pay many thousands of dollars to get quality DACs in both players and AVRs whether blu-ray capable or not. Like I said, it may not make a difference to the majority of home theater enthusiasts out there with sub 1000 receivers. I've already said that it. My point was that it CAN make a difference depending on the synergy or lack thereof for the equipment and you can't just keep mushing DECODING and D/A CONVERSION together in the same thought if you want to understand what that difference is.

pearsall001

Tony, I think you've explained it pretty well. My setup is exactly that...the Oppo BDP-83 does all the decoding & sends it via my 5.1 analog cables to my AVR which doesn't have any of the decoding capabilities. Done deal. Why spend money on gear that duplicates the process when you can only use one or the other anyway? And a lot og guys think the sound is superior coming over analog vs HDMI. I run the video direct to my TV from the Oppo.

tonyb

pearsall001 wrote: »

Tony, I think you've explained it pretty well. My setup is exactly that...the Oppo BDP-83 does all the decoding & sends it via my 5.1 analog cables to my AVR which doesn't have any of the decoding capabilities. Done deal. Why spend money on gear that duplicates the process when you can only use one or the other anyway? And a lot og guys think the sound is superior coming over analog vs HDMI. I run the video direct to my TV from the Oppo.

That was my point Phil, and yes I do understand that decoding and d/a are two different processes. Don't think I said anything different. I do the exact same with mine Phil, the problem I see, as technology changes so fast, that the industry, by not including analog outputs, forces people to invest in new gear on a shorter and shorter time span. Thats all I'm sayin'. No need for any pissing matches and I apologize for my lack of skill in getting my point across.

cheddar

tonyb wrote: »

If your avr does not decode the new formats, you have no choice but to use analog outputs of the bdp, that is if it has them.

Again, the above statement is still untrue. You don't need analog outs to pass lossless as long as the AVR is compatible with HDMI 1.1 and the player can internally DECODE the formats and send them out over HDMI. I don't like the constant upgrade cycles anymore than you do. We certainly agree there. But you still shouldn't be spreading misinformation like this if you claim to know better.

BlueFox

cheddar wrote: »

Again, the above statement is still untrue. You don't need analog outs to pass lossless as long as the AVR is compatible with HDMI 1.1 and the player can internally DECODE the formats and send them out over HDMI. I don't like the constant upgrade cycles anymore than you do. We certainly agree there. But you still shouldn't be spreading misinformation like this if you claim to know better.

This is true. My AVR has 1.1 HDMI, and I let the Oppo BD83 decode the new formats to LPCM, which goes over HDMI to the AVR. The AVR then turns this into multi-channel analog, which sounds great. I love the new uncompressed audio formats on BR.

pearsall001

What if your AVR only does video over HDMI & not audio? That's when the decoding is done in the BD player & the 5.1 analog setup comes into play. Simple really & works like a charm. Your AVR does not have to have audio over HDMI when the audio formats via 5.1 analog is accomplishing the same thing.

vc69

Wow... you guys have really beaten this to death. Thing is, you need to know a little about the different options to decide what is best in your given scenario. There ARE reason why you would want to bitstream to your AVR for decoding and D/A conversion. Jitter (ie:re-clocking to reduce jitter) happens within the AVR. If you have better DACs in your player than in your AVR, you "may" wanna use analog out of your player to your AVR but that introduces a whole other world of crap like bass management issues, etc. This is a complex issue. I have posted several links to discussion regarding this very subject at AVS forum in past threads here. I am sick of posting them to be frank. I suggest that if you want the best performance out of your particular setup, do some searching and some reading. It is NOT cut and dried for everyone.

tonyb

cheddar wrote: »

Again, the above statement is still untrue. You don't need analog outs to pass lossless as long as the AVR is compatible with HDMI 1.1 and the player can internally DECODE the formats and send them out over HDMI. I don't like the constant upgrade cycles anymore than you do. We certainly agree there. But you still shouldn't be spreading misinformation like this if you claim to know better.

I was talking about avr's with NO...NO hdmi connections if you haven't gathered that yet.

cheddar

tonyb wrote: »

I was talking about avr's with NO...NO hdmi connections if you haven't gathered that yet.

tonyb wrote: »

If your avr does not decode the new formats, you have no choice but to use analog outputs of the bdp, that is if it has them.

All AVRs without HDMI 1.3 or above do not decode the new formats because there would be no way to bitstream the codecs to the receiver. The only reason to make this non-decoding avr distinction is when talking about HDMI capable AVRs because those are the only ones that have an option to decode in the first place. There appear to be some basic misunderstandings in your posts. I mean no offense by it, just stating that your posts contain some misleading information that could confuse people making a purchasing decision.

keeneyrm01

It looks like theres a lot of correct information in all this it just got really confusing. For anybody really confused i'm going to attempt to explain it simply and hope i don't use a wrong term that throws it off.

3 possible ways to you lossless formats:

1.)Bitstream via HDMI. When the BRP send the audio info to the receiver still in a "ziped" file format. The receiver does the processing and will show up on the info display what is being decoded.

2.)Linear PCM via HDMI. When the BRP uses its built in processing to unpack the lossless format and sends it to the receiver already processed. The receiver then just reproduces the sound without using its processors. The receiver will just say LPCM on the display because it doesn't really "know" what format it is playing.

3.)Analog 7.1. which is the same principle as option 2 only it uses 8 different analog cables one for each channel instead of HDMI. This is convenient for older receiver that do not have HDMI inputs.

I hope that can help clear up some info for anyone that is in need of knowing the differences. It can be important to know which does what so you can match the new BRP up with existing equipment you are using. (no need to buy more new stuff if you have possible ways to use what you have)

cheddar

Good basic summary. You just have to know what would work best with your existing equipment as you stated. That's probably more important than any minor differences in sound quality, if there are any, between the three methods.

TrueHD and DTS-HD MA are the only lossless formats that can be bitstreamed. The third lossless format, uncompressed LPCM, is transmitted via #2. So you still have to deal with #2 even if you bitstream the others. (If not using analog outs.)

Bitstream is probably the least amount of 'set-up' work as the receiver 'knows' what to do with the signal. There are some manual bass configuration settings, etc., that are sometimes necessary for #2 and #3.

And, almost all HDMI versions 1.1 and above work with #2. #1 requires HDMI 1.3 or above. So there are many combinations of older equipment that will work with both #2 and #3.

But all three, properly set up, can sound stellar.

cnh

I really don't know what the debate is above.....Tony was talking about AVRs with No HDMIs in that case....you need analog ins...this was a direct response to one of my posts...everything else that follows is really just talking past each other.

The most recent posts pretty much clarify and review what both tony and cheddar think...because I do not see that there is 'any' real disagreement above....just some misplaced semantics and definitions.

cnh

cheddar

Agreed, I apologize for letting things get out of hand. Should have focused more on helping the OP and not reading too much in to Tony's comments. Rereading the posts, I don't think I was responding to Tony so much as my frustration that the path to lossless audio is often so much more complicated than it needs to be. Sorry Tony, my bad.

tonyb

It's cool brotha, not a big deal. It's the internet, sometimes hard to transfer info without sounding gruff. It's all good though. Now lets mone on to the next...cable debate.:eek::D

cheddar

Ha, yeah right, I know myself better than to throw myself into a cable debate. My head would probably explode...:o

Krazyz1

Look at specs and price for Samsung BDP-3600. You could forget the HDMI and go composite. It's only 1 step down. If you ever upgrade AV- Samsung will do HDMI and composite. REAL close in specs to the Pioneer Elite.

polkatese

Question guys: TrueHD and DTS MA, are they much better than the standard DD and DTS, SQ and experience-wise?

My Sammy Duo BD-UP5000 (BD/HD-DVD) for all practical purpose doesn't do these formats, but PQ is awesome due to REON on both BD/HD-DVD and standard. I've been thinking of the Oppo 83 which does, but obviously I am not ready to give up on HD-DVD. Hence, the question. I am looking for subjective comments on these (i.e mind-blowing improvements vs. marginal at best). TIA

keeneyrm01

Yeah theres a big difference with the lossless formats compared to regular dd and dts. Your samsung should be able to take advantage of these formats according to the samsung website but you might need a firmware update.

polkatese

thanks Keeney...unfortunately the Samsung firmware last update was in 2008. This is an excellent unit which was the casualty of the format war (Bluray vs. HD-DVD) and right around the time it was settled in favor of BD, the unit got discontinued.

It has three audio options: PCM, Bitstream (Re-Encoded - to DTS) and Bitstream (Audiophile - to DD Plus).

keeneyrm01

http://www.samsung.com/us/support/detail/supportPrdDetail.do?menu=SP01&prd_ia_cd=03020100&prd_mdl_cd=&prd_mdl_name=BD-UP5000

Have you checked that out, it looks like they still have the updates on the samsung web site for your player. Just look for the firmware updates link. It says it should let you bitstream the lossless formats. Don't know if you already tried that but maybe it will help.

polkatese

yep. I have firmware version 1.4 which is the latest. Thanks for looking it up though.

Out of the box, it does do TrueHD and DTS MA, but, get this, only for 2 front channels (left and right), which obviously doesn't do enough justice. They (Samsung) supposed to release a new firmware release to do a full TrueHD and DTS MA, but the plan was killed since they pulled/discon the player off the market, and replaced it with BD-1000 (I think) which only does BD. oh well.

keeneyrm01

thats weird. sounds like you got the short end of the stick on that one. is there any difference between what it can do between bitstream and LPCM with the lossless formats