OPPO BDP-83 (Non-SE) Official Discussion Thread

kuntasensei

Stacey Spears wrote: »

All of the deinterlacing tests, except for the one called "24p", are encoded as interlaced with a pyhsical cadence pattern. You may see some moire until the deinterlacer locks onto the pattern. You may also see it lose lock when it loops. This usually occurs on the 2-2 tests because 2-2 is the most difficult pattern to detect.

The only time you will see it occur on the "24p" is if you are outputting as 1080i and something downstream must deinterlace.

On the "wedge", it may lose lock more often. It usually occurs around 2, 4, 8 or 10 o'clock and it is often just for a moment. The wedge is a synthetic clip and may contain frequenies not found in real-world content. Its easy to see the artifact, but you should never tune for the wedge. If so, it may actually do worse on real content. This is why we include both the wedge and the race car (Super Speedway). Super Speedway is actually pretty close to the wedge in terms of high frequency and is almost a worse case for live material. There is a scene in Gladiator that pans over the city. This is even more difficult, but is also synthetic.

Stacy, Mike has stated on several other forums that he is using STANDARD mode for his Sony set. Standard leaves on Edge Enhancement and Detail Enhancement. I don't have anything personal against Mike, but he has been told repeatedly that he needs to change to custom mode and turn off DE and EE, color temp on Warm 2, Sharpness between 18-28 depending on the pattern. That's my only issue with him. He jumps from forum to forum having the same circular discussions on the same topic, then doesn't actually take the advice given him. This is true both of the advice he sought on the BDP-83 and on his Sony display.

For reference, he asked about the settings here (he's Peter Marlowe there):
http://www.highdefforum.com/archive/t-77139.html
And here (Linksys2.4 is his name, but he was banned):
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?p=2265840
And at AVS as Vive Ardyss... and at Tweak TV, etc.

If he will turn off those adjustments and calibrate the set's contrast and brightness per every forum that he has asked about it, then he would get a more accurate picture. Until then, please try to assist him without getting too frustrated. Glad to see you at the forum!

Stacey Spears

Standard leaves on Edge Enhancement and Detail Enhancement.

If you put up the sharpness pattern, you should be able to see what happens when these are turned on and off. In the on position I suspect you will see halos (ringing) around the circles, lines, etc... I also recommend turning them off. I would also turn off any noise reduction modes in the display.

Mike LoManaco

Stacey Spears wrote: »

The break-up does not sound normal. If you can better describe, I can look into it.

I will do that as soon as I can.

The bridge clip is noisy and has banding the in the source. There is also some pretty bad ringing if I recall correctly. It was stock footage I licensed. I have not seen anything do really well on it. The ships is also difficult. There are spots that clean up and others that do not. For example, the yellow stripes on the side of the ship clean up well. The ropes, do not in all places. Where the horizontal and vertical ropes intersect on the mass of the ship, you can see difference in players. The point where they intersect will be jagged, but further to the left and right should be better. I think I have an example of this in the help, if you press the up arrow while the clip is playing.

This explanation helps a great deal, Stacey! Thank you...makes me feel a bit better knowing some of these artifacts are there in the source. I have noticed that the yellow stripe on the ship does clean up nicely, you are right.

You should compare the OPPO to your Sony and see the difference on the clips. I am not familiar with the display, so I don't know the level of quality, but try and compare them.

You mean by bypassing the ABT processor by changing the primary output of the OPPO?

I would try this.

1. Set player to native (might be called direct) You can find this by pressing the resolution button on the remote. This will ensure the player outputs 480i over HDMI on step number 2.
2. Go to the setup screen on the disc and select VC-1 SD.
3. Go to source adaptive and start with Jaggies.

Look at this and then change the player resolution back to auto (or 1080p) and compare. Then do the same thing on ship and the bridge. The auto or 1080p should be OPPO/ABT processing while direct/native should be 480i and therefor display processing.

Okay...guess that answered my question!

Should I be always be selecting VC-1 SD when I watch these clips, no matter what, to test the scaling?

Sometimes it is difficult to know how something should look without looking at it on some other devices.

Indeed. Thank you!

Mike LoManaco

Stacey Spears wrote: »

If you put up the sharpness pattern, you should be able to see what happens when these are turned on and off. In the on position I suspect you will see halos (ringing) around the circles, lines, etc... I also recommend turning them off. I would also turn off any noise reduction modes in the display.

On my display, the "Standard" picture mode doesn't add copious amounts of edge enhancement and detail enhancement; they're at varying low degrees of application. I have tried using the "Custom" mode, but I notice ringing there too with these enhancements turned off.

I correctly set the Sharpness pattern with your disc, and the ringing and halos stopped around the "25" mark on my display (out of "100").

I left Noise Reduction on LOW on the display just for a safe starting point; what about Noise Reduction on the OPPO...can this be engaged safely? OPPO recommended not going beyond "+4" on NR, but this didn't seem to crush much compression noise from standard sources; I have since raised it to "+6" which doesn't kill detail quite yet.

Mike LoManaco

Stacey Spears wrote: »

Its not really bad advice. Once we get to our article, then you will be able to try the options and see what does the best. It involves looking at various patterns on the disc. We will point out what to look for and try and explain why certain artifacts occur. Right now we are trying to finish up our color article, which is a few months past due.

Oh, I'm not saying it was bad advice; I'm just pointing out what they have been stressing to me via e-mail conversations. While Deep Color at 36-Bits has been said to switch the player into a "higher mode of processing" for better resolution, I'm just weary about the Color Space. OPPO claims my Sony display is best matched at a 4:4:4 Color Space, but I originally had it on "Auto"...

Do you think these suggestions are justified?

BlueFox

kuntasensei wrote: »

If he will turn off those adjustments and calibrate the set's contrast and brightness per every forum that he has asked about it, then he would get a more accurate picture. Until then, please try to assist him without getting too frustrated. Glad to see you at the forum!

He should spend a few dollars, and have an ISF certified professional adjust his set. Of course, as soon as the tech leaves he probably will readjust it, and then complain it doesn't look good. :rolleyes:

Mike LoManaco

BlueFox wrote: »

He should spend a few dollars, and have an ISF certified professional adjust his set. Of course, as soon as the tech leaves he probably will readjust it, and then complain it doesn't look good. :rolleyes:

That is absolutely not true, nor would it be something I would do.

Stacey, do not "worry" about getting "frustrated" with me because of what these members are telling you -- there's no reason to be frustrated, and as you can see, you and I are having a completely civil conversation as you attempt to assist me here. Thank you for your continued help on the disc's parameters; the childish bantering between our posts is something that is just going to have to be ignored while we try and work this out.

Stacey Spears

You mean by bypassing the ABT processor by changing the primary output of the OPPO?

Yes.

Should I be always be selecting VC-1 SD when I watch these clips, no matter what, to test the scaling?

The idea was that the VC-1 would use BD constraints. (15 Mbps, 1 or 2-second GOP) The MPEG2 were done to mimick DVD bitrates. (9.8 Mbps, .5-second GOP) This was a way to try and offer something that might behave close to DVD.

I would stick with the VC-1 as they are higher bitrate and should look better.

Do you think these suggestions are justified?

We have not really shared the details with anyone on how to choose the best color space, so I think they are fine. Turning on deep color enables the 10-bit path in the ABT part. With it off, it uses the 8-bit path. The higher bitdepth should help in resizing and color space conversion.

He should spend a few dollars, and have an ISF certified professional adjust his set.

That assumes you hire a good ISF calibrator. They are not all created equal. There are a dozen or so that are excellent. One issue is experience with a particular display. You might spend all of your time with Panasonic Plasmas and never touch a Sony.

One of the best is David Abrams at Avical. He does a lot of high end installs, studios, post houses, etc... There are many more, my luck is I name one, leave another out and get hate mail.

Mike LoManaco

Stacey Spears wrote: »

Yes.

Gotcha.

The idea was that the VC-1 would use BD constraints. (15 Mbps, 1 or 2-second GOP) The MPEG2 were done to mimick DVD bitrates. (9.8 Mbps, .5-second GOP) This was a way to try and offer something that might behave close to DVD.

I would stick with the VC-1 as they are higher bitrate and should look better.

Alright; I'll do that. But interestingly enough, here's what OPPO just sent me:

Synthetic tests are designed to stress both the player and the television. They are designed to be at their absolute worse. For DVDs and Blu-rays there may only be occasional times where the disc video has been poorly mastered to the same degree that the synthetic tests are. For this reason, you may occasionally, or never, see any visual errors during real world DVD and Blu-ray watching.

We have not really shared the details with anyone on how to choose the best color space, so I think they are fine. Turning on deep color enables the 10-bit path in the ABT part. With it off, it uses the 8-bit path. The higher bitdepth should help in resizing and color space conversion.

But does "36-Bit" sound right, or should I select the lower value?

As for the display, I simply cannot get another right now.

kuntasensei

Stacey Spears wrote: »

If you put up the sharpness pattern, you should be able to see what happens when these are turned on and off. In the on position I suspect you will see halos (ringing) around the circles, lines, etc... I also recommend turning them off. I would also turn off any noise reduction modes in the display.

Detail Enhancement on the Sony creates similar artifacts to Velocity Modulation on CRT sets. If he's not setting sharpness with these off, he may not notice the artifacts, since he's calibrating based on the artificial sharpening it creates. His past threads indicate that he won't turn them off, and unless I'm crazy, it seems as if he's saying this again. It may not add "copious amounts" of artificial enhancement as he says, but ANY artificial enhancement is too much. Standard Mode on his set also reportedly leans toward a very cool color temperature, whereas most information indicates that Warm 2 mode in Custom gets it closer to the proper color temperature (though with the white balance controls, it looks like that set could really be dialed in nicely by someone with the proper instrumentation... or a patient enthusiast with an Eyeone Display LT and HCFR).

I know you probably have me on ignore, Mike, but most reviews of the Oppo seem to indicate that its noise reduction is one of its weaknesses (or more to the point, one of the weaknesses of the ABT chipset). Secrets' benchmark lists it as "borderline". I recommend leaving it off, as it is unnecessary unless you're watching poorly compressed material. Why you feel that you have so much mosquito noise that you need it on +6 is beyond me. You're taking the accuracy of the Oppo, which is why it's worth the premium in my opinion, and altering it to the point that you might as well have bought a $150 player instead.

Good call on David Abrams, Stacy. But you left out Gregg Loewen and Michael Chen, so now blood must be spilled.

Ricardo

I don't understand half of what's being said here. I love watching movies, but for me it's plug it and press play. And for me it just looks great. Color Temperature, color space, ringing.....whatever.

So happy I'm not a videophile and just sit down and enjoy the movies.

kuntasensei

Ricardo wrote: »

I don't understand half of what's being said here. I love watching movies, but for me it's plug it and press play. And for me it just looks great. Color Temperature, color space, ringing.....whatever.

So happy I'm not a videophile and just sit down and enjoy the movies.

Honestly, that's the biggest strength of the Oppo to me. Once you've done the easy setup routine, odds are good that you're already at the optimal settings for the player so you can assess the behavior of the display itself and calibrate accordingly. I made a few adjustments (like locking it at 1080p and 36-bit) but out-of-the-box, it's fantastic at just showing the unadulterated content that's on the disc.

Stacey Spears

Detail Enhancement on the Sony creates similar artifacts to Velocity Modulation on CRT sets.

In that case, you want to look at the contrast test pattern. On the far left and right you will find a white line through black and a black line through white. This is often called a needle pulse. If it behaves like SVM, then one line will appear thicker than the other. At least that is the way I recall it. You can see a good example here: http://www.tru-line.com/svm.htm

But does "36-Bit" sound right, or should I select the lower value?

It is display dependent. Use the contrast pattern and look at the gradient of the ramp. (middle part of pattern) Try each mode and see if one produces a smoother gradient. If so, select that bitdepth.

So happy I'm not a videophile

There are plenty of times I wish I wasn't. Funny thing is I get the most enjoyment when I watch SD on a 20" CRT from 10' away. I have low expectations and I just get into it. When I watch in my theater, I go into critical viewing mode.

But you left out Gregg Loewen and Michael Chen, so now blood must be spilled.

And so it begins. I try and have dinner with Micheal when he is in town, but it has been awhile. Last time I saw Gregg as at the Ranch...Skywalker Ranch. That was a fun day. Is the was the dry run through for the THX Display Calibration program.

kuntasensei

Stacey Spears wrote: »

And so it begins. I try and have dinner with Micheal when he is in town, but it has been awhile. Last time I saw Gregg as at the Ranch...Skywalker Ranch. That was a fun day. Is the was the dry run through for the THX Display Calibration program.

Gregg calibrated my old Hitachi 43UWX10b projection set during one of his tours of the South, which was my first foray into HD. I had done a lot of tweaking (and ended up doing even more once I got into the service menu because it had red push issues that I was using a line-level attenuator on the component leads to fix), but Gregg did a fantastic job. Plus, he was just a really great guy, and though he was tearing my TV open and spreading the parts all about the room (insert butt-pucker sound), I had a lot of fun that day.

Mike LoManaco

xcapri79 wrote: »

Welcome to Bluray Mike.
You are right to ignore the peanut gallery.
They are just trying to bring you down to their level.

I find the technical video discussion quite informative.

Thanks, 'Capri; I have received some informative detail from Mr. Spears as well as Oppo representatives.

Two things: What did you mean in the Proposal review I did that your review would be too "controversial" and what do you mean above by "Welcome to Blu ray Mike"? Do you mean, welcome to the headaches associated with getting an accurate picture?

F1nut

Mike LoManaco wrote:

It's simply not true. It's simply not true. It's simply not true. It's simply not true. It's simply not true. It's simply not true. It's simply not true. It's simply not true. It's simply not true. It's simply not true. It's simply not true. It's simply not true. It's simply not true. It's simply not true. It's simply not true. It's simply not true. It's simply not true. It's simply not true. It's simply not true. It's simply not true. It's simply not true. It's simply not true. It's simply not true. It's simply not true. It's simply not true. It's simply not true. It's simply not true. It's simply not true. It's simply not true. It's simply not true. It's simply not true. It's simply not true. It's simply not true.

Now, spin around and click your heels together.

kuntasensei

xcapri79 wrote: »

Welcome to Blu-Ray is a welcome to an awesome picture and awesome sound.
After I purchased my first Pioneer BDP-51FD this summer and it wasn't long before I got my second unit, this time a BDP-23FD. I found using Blu-Ray was and is a great experience. I started off with watching the Planet Earth video series and thoroughly enjoyed it. The BDP-51FD mated well with my Pioneer KRP-500M as did the BDP-23FD to my Samsung LN40B500.
Now that you have Blu-Ray I'm sure you will greatly enjoy it. I look forward to your Blu-Ray movie reviews.

Wow... were you even reading his reviews before? Mike already had a Panasonic BD player. This isn't his introduction to Blu-ray. It's just his introduction to a player accurate enough to show that his display is poorly calibrated.

digitalvideo

Hire an ISF Calibration certified specialist to calibrate your tv professionally then. It will cost around $400 to $500 bucks.

hearingimpared

xcapri79 wrote: »

I reviewed the controversial film "Inglourous ****" and found it quite offensive for several reasons which I pointed out in that thread. Several members who liked the movie were upset when I pointed out that Tarantino had duped them. There were several pages of this controversy and eventually Doro mercifully ended it.
As such, I don't want to rehash it.

.

Mike, I never disrespect you so I hope you take this in the spirit that I'm just trying to inform you of something.

Xcapri singlehandedly mucked up the Inglorious **** thread so bad that it got shut down. He has a habit of trolling and causing trouble in many, many threads and causes them to get shut down. He does this by taking a contraire stance on subjects and then beats them to death and then plays a martyr roll.

Don't let him fool you. He uses passive aggressive tactics and if he disagrees with you he will muck up your thread anyway he can and cause it to get shut down. That is his MO.

Joe

digitalvideo

Mike needs a new Panasonic plasma high end model that supports 1080p/24fps for bluray HD, get it professionally calibrated by a ISF Calibration specialist, then he'll notice a difference.

Mike is your tv in a bright room with glare on the screen or in a dark room? TV's are best suited for dark rooms where you can see more details.

hearingimpared

xcapri79 wrote: »

Give it up. Your personal attacks are tiresome. Agree to disagree and get on with life.

The truth hurts doesn't it Mr. Martyr.

hearingimpared

xcapri79 wrote: »

In an completely open forum, you wouldn't stand a chance.

What the hell are you talking about?

xcapri79 wrote: »

But here I'll be civil, except that you're hopelessly wrong. Good day and see if you can be nice to someone.

In your passive agressive way.

BTW I'm always nice.

vc69

kuntasensei wrote: »

Wow... were you even reading his reviews before? Mike already had a Panasonic BD player. This isn't his introduction to Blu-ray. It's just his introduction to a player accurate enough to show that his display is poorly calibrated.

Ding!

Come on guys...

We have a respected industry professional posting valuable information in this thread regarding a player several of us own. Let's not **** it up with posts that are completely OT and personal.

Regardless of your personal feelings, this can be very informative to all HT enthusiasts. Take the personal BS elsewhere.

tonyb

His display is probably close to correct if he likes the picture normally. I would suggest connecting the hdmi directly to the TV and see if the video is any better. If it is,then the receiver is doing something funky with the signal.

I have mine setup directly to the TV and use analog outputs for the new codecs,works like a charm.

vc69

Although I cannot confirm the 605's behavior, I have every reason to believe it is passing unadulterated digital video to his display. The 606 I own has zero issues in that regard.

Stacey Spears

I would suggest connecting the hdmi directly to the TV and see if the video is any better.

That's good advice. It is worth doing at least once to make sure nothing bad is taking place by going through the receiver. Some devices do alter the video. A lot of the, early on, would change the color space. If this is how you also get your audio into the receiver, not much you can do to bypass in the end.

tonyb

vc69 wrote: »

Although I cannot confirm the 605's behavior, I have every reason to believe it is passing unadulterated digital video to his display. The 606 I own has zero issues in that regard.

Maybe so, but Mike could have some handshake issues too. The least amount of gear to touch the signal, the better in my book.

vc69

tonyb wrote: »

Maybe so, but Mike could have some handshake issues too. The least amount of gear to touch the signal, the better in my book.

Oh I agree completely. I do however use my 606 to switch HDMI video to my display and have had excellent results.

As a troubleshooting measure though, eliminating any possible culprits is absolutely necessary and the repeater in his 605 could surely be one.

kuntasensei

I had a 705 before my TX-NR1007, and there were no issues with the pass-through on it. The 605 used the same chipset for the HDMI pass-through, so as long as he hasn't turned on the 720p conversion in the hidden menus, it should be solid. I really think it's a display-level issue, and until he's willing to get into the Custom mode and turn off all the "enhancements", he's not gonna get an artifact-free picture.

snow

Here is an interesting article on this player and the Lexicon BD-30


http://audioholics.com/reviews/transports/high-definition-dvd-players-hd-dvd-blu-ray/lexicon-bd-30-blu-ray-oppo-clone/oppo-inside-lexicon-outside-1


REGARDS SNOW