Need feedback for my idea.

Se7eN

I currently have Polk's db6501 6-1/2" 2-way speakers in my rear dash of my Toyota Corolla DX (1994), powered by a Clarion amp. I have Polk's db1222 Dual 12" subs in my trunk powered by Polk's PA1200.1 amp, but I want to upgrade and already have the amp and sub that I want picked out. To match the power of the new sub, I wanted to add more to my mids and highs. So I was wondering if it would work to use Polk's PA500.4 amp to power another pair of Polk's db6501 speakers along with the current ones? And yes, my car has enough room on the rear dash to fit all 4 of the speakers.

ben62670

Welcome to Club Polk. I recommend using very good speakers up front and no rears. Ever been to a concert with the band behind you;)
Ben

Se7eN

Hahaha, I have thought about that, actually. But I don't have any room on the doors for more speakers, and the rear dash even has pre-cut holes in the metal trim to fit more speakers, given that you cut out some of the original dash.

EDIT: My doors only fit 4" speakers, which currently are Kicker KS400s.

ben62670

More speakers isn't the answer. The answer is better speakers;)

Se7eN

What speakers would you recommend? Nonetheless, would my current idea still work out?

ben62670

Any time you have speakers in the rear you end up with phasing and imaging problems. Seperates are nice because you can mount the tweeters in the pilers. Also some head units can compensate for car environments. Unless you are in SPL competitions max SPL's will ruin your ears. When you get older you will be bumming you ruined your ears.
Ben

Se7eN

So I take it that my idea is not worth it because my car's design won't support the quality of the stereo?

ben62670

Cars are a horrible environment for audio. Many reflective surfaces, and the distances from the driver are not ideal. Loud is fun at first, but after a while you will appreciate good sound quality over the extra few DB's you gain filling your vehicle with speakers.
Ben

Se7eN

I'm not looking for an opera theater, just a loud obnoxious noise box filled with bass that doesn't overpower all of the music.

domflane

What do you have in the front doors? Just to answer your question, the four channel amp will work fine powering the two pairs of DB's on your rear dash, but I'm with ben here, better speakers up front. Maybe SR components?

MCCLIPSE

if you can afford it, definitely better components up front. SR, even MM components are awesome for prices on ebay right now.

Se7eN

With better speakers in the front means I have to amp those, too. Unless I get Polk's 4 channel amp to power both the rear and front door speakers, that would work. But then the rear speakers get 10 less watts and the front with get 40 more, which is nothing compared to the extra 260 I would get with another pair of db speakers.. Hm. I have no idea what to do.. Thoughts?

MCCLIPSE

it's okay to have the main bulk of your power going to the fronts. The rear just kinda acts like fill anyways so I would say you need to at least put the DB 6.5's up front on the amp, maybe even DB comps

chu

Se7eN wrote: »

With better speakers in the front means I have to amp those, too. Unless I get Polk's 4 channel amp to power both the rear and front door speakers, that would work. But then the rear speakers get 10 less watts and the front with get 40 more, which is nothing compared to the extra 260 I would get with another pair of db speakers.. Hm. I have no idea what to do.. Thoughts?

Don't you have a 2 channel or a 4 channel amp powering your components already? One good speaker set upfront is all you need with decent clean power to match your sub.

domflane

260? Where would you get 260 watts from a pair of db's? Just because they say 260 watts on the box doesn't mean that you will get 260W more just from installing them. If you have a 4 channel amp, drive the front doors and one pair of the rear deck speakers, if you really must have two. If you only have a two channel amp, put the better speakers up front and drive them with it. Forget about the rear deck, if you want the highs and mids to match your sub for power, don't you think it'd be better if they were a little closer to you?

MacLeod

The best route is like Ben said. Get a good set of components for the front of your car.

Im not familiar with your car but check and see what kind of room you have. If you have the depth in the door panel and clearance, you can always cut out some sheet metal to fit a set of 5.25" components or better yet a set of 6.5" components.

If youre not comfortable with cutting, get the specs for the MM5251 and look into making a spacer for them. You can run down to Home Depot and grab a sheet of MDF and cut out your own spacer for less than $20.

After you get all that figured out, stick with getting the 500.4 and bi-amp your front speakers. Front amp channels power the tweeters and rear channels power the mids.

Phillips

If I were you, I would find a way to fit a component set of speakers up front. Since your Corolla has 4" factory speakers, this will either require a 4" component set (not a lot of manufacturers make this - Focal has a good set), or you can modify the location to accept a 5 1/4" component set. (I highly recommend doing this)

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_142SAC656/Speaker-Brackets.html?tp=2824&avf=Y

This speaker bracket will allow you to fit a 5 1/4" woofer from a component set in your front doors. The DB series offers a 5 1/4" component set that would sound nice. If you can afford a better pair, great, if not, that's fine as well. You don't have to have as much power as the 500.4 will offer, but the headroom would be nice to have and allow for cleaner power and will be upgrade proof if you decide to change out the component set later on.

Doing this and putting a component set up front will sound better and be louder than putting another set in the rear deck. Especially if you put an amp on them. Also, if you buy a 500.4, you can easily amp the front and rear speakers off of it. While the bi-amp configuration would sound better, hooking up the front and rear speakers would ultimately be louder. Just make sure you set the amplifier gains appropriately. We can help you when you get to this point.

Se7eN

Thank you, Phillips, for actually breaking it down for me. And everyone else, too. This is a lot of help. I appreciate it.

Using the bracket to modify the speaker size in the front sounds like the best route. I wasn't aware that you could do that, which is why I didn't have hope in using better speakers in the front. What would you reccomend I get in order to amp all four of my speakers? My current rear dash speakers run at 4 ohms, so the amp would need to match that. 100w rms per channel would be great, running at 4 channels. Now I just need to know what amp could do that with quality and what 5 1/4 speakers can run 100w rms @ 4 ohms..

Phillips

You don't have to have the full 100 watts.

Either of Polk's 4-channel amps will do just fine. Both are under-rated and will give you more power than the spec sheet tells you. Both will easily drive the speakers you will have.

Se7eN

Okay. And I should just take the DB's 5 1/4" speakers?

Phillips

It's possible that you could fit a 6 1/2" component set in the front doors, but you would have to do measurements to see if the depth is ok and diameter would be ok. I don't doubt that a 5 1/4 set would be ok with a speaker adapter. (as I listed, or you can make it out of 1/4" plywood or 1/2 to 3/4" MDF)

The DB series is good, and will sound nice with a Polk amp pushing them. Remember, that the source (your head unit) is just as important as the speakers for you to have good sound. The install itself, is MORE important than the speakers that you select. For example, you could take a set of $800 Polk SR series components in the front doors, not seal off the rear wave from the front wave, bury the tweeters under the stock grill, and they would just sound decent at best. A set of DB series installed in a professional manner would sound just as good if not better.

Se7eN

I think I would want to get another set of the DB 6 1/2" speakers, but they're components and I don't think I have anywhere decent to mount the tweeters..

I'm only using a Pioneer Premier DEH-P410UB:
http://signature.crutchfield.com/s_130P410UB/Pioneer-Premier-DEH-P410UB.html?search=pioneer+premier+deh&ssi=0

I'm using Rockford Fosgate's complete 4g wiring kit. I've been hearing I should upgrade to a 1g kit.

Phillips

4 gauge from the battery to the trunk to run the amp you have now AND the amp you are thinking about getting will do just fine. Make sure that your ground wire for the amp is also 4 gauge and short. (4-6 feet max) It should be a nice copper o-ring, attached to a good solid metal point. If that point is painted, the paint needs to be removed for an effective ground. Also, when you get your second amp, ground it to the same place as the other amp.

1 gauge would be overkill in my opinion. One really easy way to tell if your amps are starving for power is to go get in your car at night, start the engine, turn your headlights on, and crank the stereo. Do your lights blink to the bass? If so, your electrical system is straining to keep up. Depending on your alternator, battery, factory power and ground wires, you would want to upgrade one or more of them. If you do need to upgrade, I would start by upgrading the big 3 wires under the hood. If you do not know what I mean by that, hit up Google and search for "how to upgrade the big 3".

If this doesn't solve the issue, then I would want to know your alternator and battery size. At that point I could recommend a next step in solving the power issue. Most vehicles cannot even fully saturate a 1 gauge power cable with the spare power it has from the factory. Once everything else in the car is subtracted from the total power your alternator/battery setup puts out, there is usually not enough left to fully drive a 1 gauge power wire to its fullest capacity.

Tweeter mounting can be a fun and/or frustrating experience. It is highly recommended to try the tweeters in A LOT of different positions in the car to see where it sounds the best to YOU. I emphasize YOU, because your ears are unique to you, and your taste in music is unique to YOU. We can only guide you and offer tips on what to try, but no one can tell you the best place to put a speaker unless they have the EXACT same car with the EXACT same equipment. Even then it's subjective to their own ears vs yours.

Your Pioneer Premier head-unit looks nice Se7en. I wouldn't say you are "only" using it. Good pre-out voltage, nice looking deck, good parametric EQ, a nice feature that increases sound quality of a highly compressed MP3. No problems their, definitely not a weak link. Are there better units? Sure, there is always something better. Are there worse ones? Oh yes, many!

Se7eN

I gotta say, Phillips, you are my new best friend.

I've noticed that and I do have that problem. I want to upgrade my Big 3, but no one is helping me out (except here) on my situation(s). I honestly know nothing of alternators or my very own car stereo installation. I had paid an extremely experienced friend to install my system. He is the one who helped me from day 1 on what to buy for my system, too. (He works for Best Buy full time installing stereos and all that in their install bay.)

I just talked with a store called Napa Auto Parts, which is highly known store around here. When I told them what I was running in my car (800w rms @ 2 ohm amp + 100w rms @ 4 ohm amp), they said they 'did the math' and that I would need a 180 amp alternator. Is this true, or do they not know something about the Big 3 that could help this change?

Like I said before, I don't know the dynamics of installing car stereos. I want to learn, oh so very badly, but people tell me the only way to go is by 'trial and error,' which is how they learned. I don't want to take that responsibility with such expensive equipment and end up harming something, including my car. I tried to take my door panel off and almost ripped the plywood mount out. Ever since then I thought I would leave it to the experts to do it. x)

Speaking of which, Phillips, how did you learn all of your knowledge?

Well I just said 'only' because I know over half the frequent posters of this forum have insanely good stereos in their car, and seeing my I'm the little n00b on the street.. yeah.

I've also heard that if you run a hard enough system, you could also use another separate battery that the subs or amps would just pull from, aside from the car's startup battery. I was talking to people on the Fi forums about their Fi BTL 15" (which I have my eyes on, and is why I started this original post about boosting my mids and highs), but they constantly told me I would need a separate battery, 1g wire, and a new high output alternator.

Installer4life

800 watts rms plus 100 watts rms equals impossible to tell how large an alternator you need. Current draw is the only measurement that means anything. Obviously your sub amp will draw the most current and if you are listening to a 30 hz note on a continuous basis then it will probably draw max current but listening to music is a different story. Where you will gain the most is making sure your voltage stays as high as possible. Your amps are designed with unregulated power supplies which helps the companies making them cheat the actual power ratings. Yes 1/0 power wire is very large but it will keep the voltage higher. How much higher is hard to tell. Unless you are shooting for a competition vehicle you should be able to run the 1200.1 and the 500.4 off the factory alternator. One other thing to keep in mind is that this alternator is 16 years old and may not be up to factory specs.

Phillips

I doubt the person from Napa gave you solid advice, more like trying to sell you a product, which is his or her job. I've met a lot of people from places like that, most of them could barely change their own oil.

While I wouldn't say I have a lot of knowledge, I did start at a young age. 14 years ago I got my first car, and within a few months of receiving it, I start putting stereo equipment in it. My dad, a very good mechanic, helped me as he had the basic electronic knowledge to do it. He taught me a lot about electronics, computers, auto mechanics, etc.

I do a ton of reading, mostly on the internet. While you can not believe everything you read online, reputable forums are a great place to learn, mingle, and ask questions. Join up with some good car audio forums, and use the forum search engine. Thousands of threads have priceless information that will go a long way towards educating you. If you're anything like me, your brain will absorb it and you will quickly learn the basics and start helping out others with the basics.

As far as the forums go, shoot me a PM and I will give you some good forums to go to. I would put them here but I think it may be against the rules. Some forums, like this one, are more geared towards the basics. Others are more geared towards sound quality and the crazyness involved in trying to get great sound quality out of a box with tons of reflection points without a central seat. (borderline insanity, but we love it!!)

Instead of giving you the answers about batteries, alternators, the Big 3, amperage/voltage, etc., I am going to give you a homework assignment. I want you to read, IN FULL INCLUDING HYPERLINKS, the following two URL's:

http://www.caraudiohelp.com/how_to_install_a_car_amp/how_to_install_a_car_amp.htm

http://www.caraudiohelp.com/newsletter/choosing_wire_gauge_amplifiers.htm

Use google to read up on the Big 3.

Once you're done and think you have a good grasp, I want you to tell me what size power wire you think you need, and whether or not you may need a higher output alternator and/or a larger/second battery.

Se7eN

From what I understand of this, it seems as if I do NOT need a second battery whatsoever, power wire MIGHT need to be 1g, and probably should get a higher output alternator. All I can say about the alternator comes from my own reasoning from this because I can't find anything on that site about determining if you need a better alternator or not. It seems to cover the wiring mostly along with a capacitor, which I already have.

I'm going to keep this car until it blows up, practically. And when it does, I'm going to gut the sound system and see what I can salvage into a new car. I have money saved up for a new car, and I'm always putting more money towards it, I'm just using up the last bit of my current car.

The site Phillips gave me, Installer4life, has an equation for determining how many amps your capacitor will need: E=I*R (voltage = current multiplied by resistance)

Phillips

Sounds like you read it all and understand it. Good job! Personally I think that 4 gauge power/ground will be fine, as long as your Big3 are upgraded. I would do those first, then do your install, and if you need to upgrade to 1 gauge then go ahead. I'm not one to go balls out on wiring. "Enough" will sound just as good as "Overkill".

Se7eN

I guess so. I think I just need to upgrade the Big 3, then probably the alternator.

I just got my dynamat installed in my trunk and rear dash, but my friend who did it moved around some wires and now my setup isn't functioning right. The deck and I think front speakers are doing well, but the rear speakers sound underpowered and the amp to them acts funky when I turn off the car. It takes longer for it to turn off and sometimes tries to turn back on, but only for a short period of time. The subs aren't being powered and the amp to them has a red light for the LED indicator which refers to 'protected.' My capacitor also says 'Lo' on the digital display and won't turn off. Any ideas what's going on?

Phillips

I would suggest either a larger battery or a secondary battery BEFORE you replace an alternator. That just makes good electrical sense to me. Want a kick **** battery designed for car audio? http://www.kinetikaudio.com Kinetik is what A LOT of the top SPL competitors use. The site has a nice calculator on what they think you would need based on an RMS wattage number. The calculator is designed with extreme overkill in mind, so don't think you have to buy two of their largest batteries just because it says so. You're going to be running two amps with a relatively small amount of wattage. It's not like you're talking about 5000 watts here. (even that isn't much in today's game)

When you say your friend "moved around some wires", did he move the ground locations? The problems you are having sounds like a weak ground to me. Check your main ground in the trunk first (at all connection points), I bet you find at some point that you have loose connection. If he actually moved the spot that you ground to, was the new spot prepared for a good ground? Grounding through the car's paint is NOT a good idea. All paint should be removed for a good ground. Also, you're trying to ground directly to the car's chassis. Anytime a ground has to go through other bolts and/or factory welds, it becomes weaker and weaker. Electricity flows through ground first, and then through the positive side. Without a good ground, all sorts of problems will rear their head

Se7eN

Thanks for the link.

Yeah he accidentally knocked out both grounds from the cap and rear amp when he snapped the rear seats back in, so he didn't get a chance to notice the stereo not working. He fixed it for me, though. Now I think my front left speaker is blown, but I have no idea how that could have happened.. because the only thing powering my KS400s is my deck, which it's peak power output is 50w, while the peak of the speakers is at 60w. The deck only runs 14w RMS and the speakers run 30w RMS. Could my deck possibly have blown it? It makes a small small buzz/crackle noise (as do blown speakers) if I turn the volume to 40. 50 is where things get loud, and once today I played it up to 55 for about a minute.