sub with 2 channel

Hawkeye · January 2010

I'm not using any crossover at this time. I'm considering a Bryston, Lyngdorf, or McIntosh in the near future to utilize the room correction available in the Lyngdorf and McIntosh.

The JL's have quite a few controls to effectively blend them with the mains. I used my trusty SPL meter and several test CDS which generate test tones. I must have had four pads of paper strewn about the room while integrating with 1000's of numbers written down:eek:

I still think it could sound better if my room was dedicated. Real world says that won't happen for a few more years.

Gordon

Hawkeye · January 2010

pearsall001 wrote: »

Hey Gordon, I take it you're still thoroughly enjoying those Mac 501's!!! I'm still working on that MC 402 here though.

/QUOTE]

Hi Phil. I'll keep you in mind this year when I'm ready to get rid of the 501's. The 1.2k's are looking better and better and just about have the better half convinced A couple more Coach bags and some baubles should just about seal the deal!

Gordon

sucks2beme · January 2010

I've done it both ways. Most of what I listen to isn't that bass intense.
The Proac's do a fine job of most material, so the sub isn't needed.
The Rega's and Hales bookshelf speakers would be better with a sub.

dkg999 · January 2010

As others have alluded to, I think it depends heavily on what you are using for speakers. It takes some work to integrate a sub into a 2 ch system, however you do get the option of optimizing the placement of the main speakers and the sub separately. Most people I know have thought they needed dual subs in a 2 ch system were running only one channel into the single sub. Not that there aren't benefits to dual subs, it's just that most people don't integrate and hook-up a single sub properly.

MillerLiteScott · January 2010

wrong thread

pearsall001 · January 2010

Hawkeye wrote: »

pearsall001 wrote: »

Hey Gordon, I take it you're still thoroughly enjoying those Mac 501's!!! I'm still working on that MC 402 here though.

/QUOTE]

Hi Phil. I'll keep you in mind this year when I'm ready to get rid of the 501's. The 1.2k's are looking better and better and just about have the better half convinced A couple more Coach bags and some baubles should just about seal the deal!

Gordon

WOW! Gordon...moving up the chain already? You know it doesn't end with the 1.2K's!!! Let me know when your ready to make the move. Hopefully the timing will be right for me.

esowden · January 2010

dkg999 wrote: »

As others have alluded to, I think it depends heavily on what you are using for speakers. It takes some work to integrate a sub into a 2 ch system, however you do get the option of optimizing the placement of the main speakers and the sub separately. Most people I know have thought they needed dual subs in a 2 ch system were running only one channel into the single sub. Not that there aren't benefits to dual subs, it's just that most people don't integrate and hook-up a single sub properly.

I love the punch a properly setup subwoofer can provide to a 2.1 system. Many people tend to over-emphasize the bass signal resulting in a sloppy, muddy mess when any amount of volume is applied.

cnh · January 2010

I've always had a little problem balancing subs for 2.1 music...they're fine in HT...Blend in perfectly at 80hz....but once we go 2 channel I always have to tweak the sub(s)--back them off..to the point where they are just barely audible.

cnh

mrbofus · January 2010

I guess I should add 1 reason I ask is beacuse I may be replacing my RTi8 with Rtia3's. long story explained in different post. So with RTia3 for music--sub or no sub?
cant you turn on or off the sub depending on if you are listening to music or watching movies as well?

Erik Tracy · January 2010

mrbofus wrote: »

I guess I should add 1 reason I ask is beacuse I may be replacing my RTi8 with Rtia3's. long story explained in different post. So with RTia3 for music--sub or no sub?
cant you turn on or off the sub depending on if you are listening to music or watching movies as well?

I have the RTiA3s as fronts and an Epik Valor sealed sub.

And I would say if you can afford it - you should run a sub with them.

I will qualify that somewhat by saying that the RTiA3s can produce some pretty satisfying bass for music.

In playing with my setup - I have run my AVR in Pure Direct mode which turns the LFE output off to the sub and the AVR becomes a 2-channel setup. And I have on several occassions have put my ear up to the sub just to make sure it was off cuz the sound coming from the RTiA3s seemed pretty full.

So yes, for music you could turn off your sub and I think you'd be surprised at what you can get from the RTiA3s.

You can leave your sub on and if your AVR supports holding different memory configurations, you could have one setting that is for HT (Sub on, Speakers set to "small"), one for Music w/o sub (Speakers set to "Large", AVR set to Pure Direct), or one for Music w/ sub and Mains (Sub on, Speakers set to "Large", AVR set to whatever mode you want-multichannel, PLIIX, Orchestra, Rock, etc).

Then you can simply recall the settings on the fly and pick which one sounds best to you.

But for the RTiA3s a sub does offer that completely filled in low end sound - and for movies you do need a sub to pressurize your room for the scary dangerous LFE effects.

I'm very happy (for now) with my setup.

esowden · January 2010

cnh wrote: »

...back them off..to the point where they are just barely audible.

cnh

...which is the correct level for proper integration into your 2.1 system.

mrbofus · January 2010

Erik Tracy wrote: »

I have the RTiA3s as fronts and an Epik Valor sealed sub.

And I would say if you can afford it - you should run a sub with them.

I will qualify that somewhat by saying that the RTiA3s can produce some pretty satisfying bass for music.

In playing with my setup - I have run my AVR in Pure Direct mode which turns the LFE output off to the sub and the AVR becomes a 2-channel setup. And I have on several occassions have put my ear up to the sub just to make sure it was off cuz the sound coming from the RTiA3s seemed pretty full.

So yes, for music you could turn off your sub and I think you'd be surprised at what you can get from the RTiA3s.

You can leave your sub on and if your AVR supports holding different memory configurations, you could have one setting that is for HT (Sub on, Speakers set to "small"), one for Music w/o sub (Speakers set to "Large", AVR set to Pure Direct), or one for Music w/ sub and Mains (Sub on, Speakers set to "Large", AVR set to whatever mode you want-multichannel, PLIIX, Orchestra, Rock, etc).

Then you can simply recall the settings on the fly and pick which one sounds best to you.

But for the RTiA3s a sub does offer that completely filled in low end sound - and for movies you do need a sub to pressurize your room for the scary dangerous LFE effects.

I'm very happy (for now) with my setup.

Excellent reply, thank you. Are your RTia3s on stands or shelf? By the way My AVR is an Onkyo sr507 that i am still learning all it has to offer.
Thanks again
-Greg

Erik Tracy · January 2010

mrbofus wrote: »

Excellent reply, thank you. Are your RTia3s on stands or shelf? By the way My AVR is an Onkyo sr507 that i am still learning all it has to offer.
Thanks again
-Greg

I have them wall mounted

gp4jesus · January 2010

twin subs help w/integration; the add'l power & reduced distortion doesn't hurt either.

Sometimes the "integration problem" is an XO issue detracting from what are great speakers that have become satilites, hurting w/other issues rather than helping (reducing) dopler effects.

I've discussed this with many people haven't found two agree on XO type: symetrical, asymetrical, 2d order, 4th order, Bessel, LR, butterworth, etc, etc, etc!

I'm currently using the filtering in my SSP w/a single SW.

Allow me to describe a system I had when I single and had the space. XO: symetrical 4th order LR filters. A quad amped system in a big room, high ceiling. Twin subs (dual 12"s) each with their own 2 channel high current amp. Dual 8" driven w/Meridian monos between 60-180hz. Meridian active speakers handling 180hz on up. That system sounded full & effortless at ANY volume setting!

concealer404 · January 2010

Twin subs may help with integration if you get them set up right, but assuming that when you say "twin" you mean "stereo" rather than stacked, they're an absolute **** to get set up correctly. One sub with proper research is cake to blend. I've had a few through my setup and never had a problem with blending or lumps. I ended up with that "i have gigantic floorstanders" sound, rather than "i have a 2.1 system."

AudioFilet · January 2010

If you take a looks at the specs on the Polk RTi A9, they go from 18-27khz. That's lower than most subwoofers go. Don't know how good they are for 2 channel though.

lhester · January 2010

Hello all,

First post. I've been reading and learning for a while. I even updated my Monitor 10s xovers using the info learned here.

After fiddling with subs for 25 years or so here is my two cents:

Active crossover with a crossover point between 60 and 40hz.
Two subs run in stereo.
Plenty of power, I run mine with two Hafler DH-200s.
Room placement is critical. Corner placement will not produce good results most of the time.
Equalization is good-I have an AudioControl Richter Scale III. It is actually two components in one, a programmable crossover and a six band half octave equalizer with tone generator for each frequency-22.5hz, 31.5hz, 45hz, 63hz, 90hz and 125hz.
And most importantly-remember that many recordings don't contain any information in the bottom octave. The subs will be sitting mostly idle much of the time.

LH

Ranger0912 · February 2010

Not necessarily. As a matter of fact REL Sub-Bass systems are specifically tailored for 2 channel.

ViperZ · February 2010

I love the sub in 2.1 system... I am sure there are speakers that just don't need addition of a sub and dig deep enough, but IMHO whether you need a sub or not really depends on your speakers.

For example, I have Maggies in my 2-channel setup. These speakers simply do not dig deep by definition. Therefore, I added 15" Velo ULD-15 to the picture and love it. It took me forever to find the sweet spot between speakers and the sub, and only after I got Paradigm X-30 crossover, I got what I wanted.
Also, I would cross the sub at just over lower frequency boundary (at -3dB) of the main speakers (mind it, only for 2-channel setup). A lot of crossover tends to mud the upper range of low frequencies.

Oh yeah, I do NOT use LFE output for the sub or anything like that. 2-channel is 2-channel stereo. My Carver C-1 preamp has 2 sets of outputs: 1 goes to the amp, 2nd goes to the active sub crossover, then to the sub amp.

98Badger · February 2010

I've done both the 2.0 and 2.1 for my music setup. I prefer to include the sub. It's not necessary for everything I listen to, but it doesn't hurt either. My thought is why not take some of the load of my Paradigm S8's and let them shine? I let the sub handle anything below 50 Hz.

madmax · February 2010

I guess a sub is ok in a two channel system but very few people set it up like they should. You should only hear it once in awhile and anyone unfamiliar with your system should walk away believing you only have the two main speakers hooked up. Any more sound level than that is unnatural and takes away the beauty of the really important sounds.
madmax

MANSKITO · February 2010

madmax wrote: »

I guess a sub is ok in a two channel system but very few people set it up like they should. You should only hear it once in awhile and anyone unfamiliar with your system should walk away believing you only have the two main speakers hooked up. Any more sound level than that is unnatural and takes away the beauty of the really important sounds.
madmax

While its true that you should not be able to tell where your mains end and your sub begins, when it comes bass SPL with certain types of music for example Rap a sub is part of the music I don't think you can dial a sub in perfectly and then leave it alone, I actively change the settings all the time. IMO there is no perfect setting while I've found I don't need to touch the cross over point, I m constantly changing the Gain on the sub, because the demands of music are dynamic. Some times I just need more bass and other times less.

pearsall001 · February 2010

madmax wrote: »

I guess a sub is ok in a two channel system but very few people set it up like they should. You should only hear it once in awhile and anyone unfamiliar with your system should walk away believing you only have the two main speakers hooked up. Any more sound level than that is unnatural and takes away the beauty of the really important sounds.
madmax

Setup & seemless integration are key factors. However, when properly done...look out!!! It doesn't get any better for musical enjoyment. And don't forget it's not all about the pipe organ notes.

Conradicles · February 2010

madmax wrote: »

You should only hear it once in awhile and anyone unfamiliar with your system should walk away believing you only have the two main speakers hooked up. Any more sound level than that is unnatural and takes away the beauty of the really important sounds.
madmax

Well said madmax and I just accomplished this on a small scale.
Added a Mission 700ASi sub to my 2-channel rig (nothing fancy, 150 watt class D power and a 10" subwoofer) just to see how it sounds. Crossover point is 50Hz and it goes down to 30Hz.
My goal is to get another VMPS sub, but I need to save more pennies.

Krazyz1 · February 2010

If someone one had told me 5 years ago I would own subs I would have called them a liar. I have A9 towers and 2-DSW PRO 400 subs set up as a dedicated left and right. Don't get me wrong , the 9's sound fantastic , but the subs complement them so much is un real. I fired up the system once and intentionally left the subs off. Holy crap!!!! Where did the music go?? LOL!

gavn8r · February 2010

Gotta say that I was pretty pleased without a sub in my system. But I recently bought a pair of bookshelf speakers from a manufacturer that shall not be named (but rhymes with schmlorel). As part of the deal I got a nice little powered sub. I waited about two weeks before I installed it. I didn't feel like I was missing bass before the installation, but I was blown away by what it added to the system. Having said that, I still haven't found the perfect positioning for the sub. It's just not sounding like it's part of the performance yet (I listed mostly to rock). But I think it has to do with where it sits in my room and where the crossover point is. It has a tunable crossover. Right now it is set to 65Hz. I think I'm closing in on that front, though.