sub with 2 channel

mrbofus
mrbofus Posts: 297
edited February 2010 in 2 Channel Audio
Happy New Year All!
I guess this question could go in several different catagories but here it is.
As I read various posts, it seems like a sub in a 2 ch system it taboo.
Excuse me for my ignorance, but why is this?
----Or is it that if one builds a quality 2 ch system that the main speakers should produce all the bass one needs?
just wondering????
Sharp Aqous 40" LCD
Onkyo TX SR-507 AVR
Onkyo DX-C390 CD Changer
POLK RTI8 Mains--Cherry
the rest...in process...slowly!!
Post edited by mrbofus on
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  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 5,068
    edited January 2010
    You're really short changing yourself by "not" adding a good sub or two for your "complete" 2 channel enjoyment. So called fullrange speakers are pretty much non-existent.
    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,033
    edited January 2010
    mrbofus wrote: »
    Or is it that if one builds a quality 2 ch system that the main speakers should produce all the bass one needs?
    Correct.

    It seems that there are the purists that will insist that a sub is taboo and then there are those that feel that a sub is still necessary to obtain all the needed frequencies. Then there are those who could care less and just have a sub to shake the house, regardless of the sound quality.

    I have and can appreciate both sides of the fence. It all boils down to personal preference. Most of the outstanding 2 channel systems that I have run across in my travels have had no sub and full range mains. Only one or two outstanding systems have had a properly integrated sub to where you did not even know the sub was playing or on. With less than stellar room conditions, gear or speakers a sub can add depth, better dimension and in some cases better imaging to a rig.

    Going back to your quote above? If it is a quality, well thought out and assembled 2 channel rig then you will already have all that and slightly more already present.
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • Ern Dog
    Ern Dog Posts: 2,237
    edited January 2010
    Since my audio goal is to hear all the information that is present on the cd, I've always found a well integrated sub helpful. Sealed is even better. Now this has to be excuted right or it will sound worse and you would be better off without a sub.
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  • tcrossma
    tcrossma Posts: 1,301
    edited January 2010
    I have never been happy with the way a sub integrates into my system. I imaging some of that is the room itself being the issue. I am much happier with "so called" full-range speakers, in that they give me all of the bass that I require, and go plenty low for my tastes; and there's no issue with integration.
    Speakers: Polk LSi15
    Pre: Adcom GFP-750 with HT Bypass
    Amp: Pass Labs X-150
    CD/DVD Player: Classe CDP-10
    Interconnects: MIT Shortgun S3 Pro XLR
    Speaker cables: MIT MH-750 bi-wire
    TT:Micro Seiki DD-35
    Cartridge:Denon DL-160
    Phono Pre:PS Audio GCPH
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  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 5,068
    edited January 2010
    Ern Dog wrote: »
    Since my audio goal is to hear all the information that is present on the cd, I've always found a well integrated sub helpful. Sealed is even better. Now this has to be excuted right or it will sound worse and you would be better off without a sub.

    Exactly right. The key is to achieve proper integration with the mains. This has a lot to do with the quality of the sub & even more to do with the room. I fully understand when guys say that they don't like adding the sub because they could never get things to jell. If you pull it off you're in for a real treat...and it's not all about the low notes either. Those that have well integrated subs know exactly what I'm talking about. A musical experience that a single pair of speakers simply can't accomplish.
    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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  • I-SIG
    I-SIG Posts: 2,243
    edited January 2010
    tcrossma wrote: »
    I have never been happy with the way a sub integrates into my system. I imaging some of that is the room itself being the issue. I am much happier with "so called" full-range speakers, in that they give me all of the bass that I require, and go plenty low for my tastes; and there's no issue with integration.

    My room is exactly the opposite. A sub is absolutely necessary to correct for a massive 20dB canyon :eek: between 45hz and 75hz.

    Not only that, I like to feel a bit more bass too. :D Now that I am used to sub in my 2-channel, I doubt I could go without it. Plus it's nice for the movies too.

    All it takes is some time to sit down and go through all the steps (possibly several times!) to integrate the sub very cleanly. Maybe these SRS's are more sub-friendly than some other mains.

    Wes
    Link: http://polkarmy.com/forums

    Sony 75" Bravia 4K | Polk Audio SDA-SRS's (w/RDO's & Vampire Posts) + SVS PC+ 25-31 | AudioQuest Granite (mids) + BWA Silver (highs) | Cary Audio CAD-200 | Signal Cable Silver Resolution XLR's | Rotel Michi P5 | Signal Cable Silver Resolution XLR's | Cambridge Audio azur 840C--Wadia 170i + iPod jammed w/ lossless audio--Oppo 970 | Pure|AV PF31d
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  • danz1906
    danz1906 Posts: 5,144
    edited January 2010
    Rel subwoofers work good in 2ch systems.
    Linn AV5140 fronts
    Linn AV5120 Center
    Linn AV5140 Rears
    M&K MX-70 Sub for Music
    Odyssey Mono-Blocs
    SVS Ultra-13 Gloss Black:D
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  • MANSKITO
    MANSKITO Posts: 295
    edited January 2010
    Don't try it with the PSW10, I did its a POS. I love my Polk, but i have no love for the PSW10. It sounds like ****.
    With that said over the past few months I have heard a lot different gear and speaker configs. Subs are needed plain and simple.
    The best systems I have ever heard was some High end Magnepans and Paradigm Signatures on thousands of dollars worth of tube gear. In both cases I lessoned to them with a sub on and off. In both cases (the Mangnepans more so then the paradigms) the system just was not the same and a lot of information was lost with out a sub.

    The only speakers I have heard that maybe could get along with out a sub where some definitive technology speakers. I think they where called super towers or something like that. However even they could not put out enough slam for things like kick drums nor could they really hit the low string bass like a good sub could. Honestly when it comes to reproducing sound, if you can't move as much air as the real life counter parts can (kick drums, deep string bass, the roar of a T-rex in jurassic park) the speakers are not going to sound like the real life counter parts. And I don't know of a pair of speakers that by themselves can move that much air, maybe some on this forum that are more blessed then me might be able to name a few but i can't. You need a sub to hear it all.
    Monitor 60s, CS10 front
    Monitor 40s, back
    PSW10:(

    H/k AVR 325
    Sansui Tape Deck
    Pioneer PD-5010 CD player

    Sennheiser HD 650s :D
    Maverick Audio Tube Magic D1 DAC

    AMD Phenom II 940 @ 3.8 prime stabel
    4 gigs 1066, cas 5
    XFX 4890 1gig
    Seagate 1tb 7200.12
    Creative X-fI Titanium Fatal1ty
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  • leroyjr1
    leroyjr1 Posts: 8,785
    edited January 2010
    I-SIG wrote: »
    My room is exactly the opposite. A sub is absolutely necessary to correct for a massive 20dB canyon :eek: between 45hz and 75hz.

    Not only that, I like to feel a bit more bass too. :D Now that I am used to sub in my 2-channel, I doubt I could go without it. Plus it's nice for the movies too.

    All it takes is some time to sit down and go through all the steps (possibly several times!) to integrate the sub very cleanly. Maybe these SRS's are more sub-friendly than some other mains.

    Wes


    You shouldn't need a sub with the SRS's. Just my opinion. They have plenty low end for two channel
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  • wayne3burk
    wayne3burk Posts: 939
    edited January 2010
    i'm using a JBL PB10 Subwoofer Speaker with my two channel system... it takes some tweaking to get the right center frequency and volume level to integrate well.. but when it's right it does fill in the low end nicely without being boomy or boxy.
    Yamaha RX-V2700, EMI 711As (front), RCA K-16 (rear), Magnavox Console (Center & TV Stand), Sony SMP-N200 media streamer, Dual 1249 TT =--- Sharp Aquas 60" LCD tellie
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  • Hawkeye
    Hawkeye Posts: 1,313
    edited January 2010
    pearsall001 wrote: »
    Exactly right. The key is to achieve proper integration with the mains. This has a lot to do with the quality of the sub & even more to do with the room. I fully understand when guys say that they don't like adding the sub because they could never get things to jell. If you pull it off you're in for a real treat...and it's not all about the low notes either. Those that have well integrated subs know exactly what I'm talking about. A musical experience that a single pair of speakers simply can't accomplish.

    Well said Phil!

    Gordon
    2 Channel -
    Martin Logan Spire, 2 JL Audio F112 subs
    McIntosh C1000 Controller with Tube pre amp, 2 MC501 amplifiers, MD1K Transport & DAC, MR-88 Tuner
    WireWorld Eclipse 6.0 speaker wire and jumpers, Eclipse 5^2 Squared Balanced IC's. Silver Eclipse PCs (5)
    Symposium Rollerblocks 2+ (16)Black Diamond Racing Mk 3 pits (8)
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  • tonyb
    tonyb Posts: 32,967
    edited January 2010
    I am mostly in the no sub for 2 channel camp,but If you do want a sub,I would suggest dual subs. I see most of you who like the the subs for 2 channel have 2 of them, and I understand that, thats what I would do. If no sub though,you need some monster speakers that dig deep and lots of power to push those drivers.
    HT SYSTEM-
    Sony 850c 4k
    Pioneer elite vhx 21
    Sony 4k BRP
    SVS SB-2000
    Polk Sig. 20's
    Polk FX500 surrounds

    Cables-
    Acoustic zen Satori speaker cables
    Acoustic zen Matrix 2 IC's
    Wireworld eclipse 7 ic's
    Audio metallurgy ga-o digital cable

    Kitchen

    Sonos zp90
    Grant Fidelity tube dac
    B&k 1420
    lsi 9's
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  • Hawkeye
    Hawkeye Posts: 1,313
    edited January 2010
    The key was a stereo pair. I tried just one and no matter what I did or tried, the sub was still obvious. Once I installed the second one, the bass snapped into focus. Now, if the double bass is on the hard left, with a sub over there it is believable instead of the right sub trying to steer the bass to the left.

    I'm not a basshead trying to knock the drywall down :D I could do that if I choose to but it sounds very fake. Once well integrated, everything from mid bass on up has much greater authority and weight. Something I could not achieve with only one sub.

    Gordon
    2 Channel -
    Martin Logan Spire, 2 JL Audio F112 subs
    McIntosh C1000 Controller with Tube pre amp, 2 MC501 amplifiers, MD1K Transport & DAC, MR-88 Tuner
    WireWorld Eclipse 6.0 speaker wire and jumpers, Eclipse 5^2 Squared Balanced IC's. Silver Eclipse PCs (5)
    Symposium Rollerblocks 2+ (16)Black Diamond Racing Mk 3 pits (8)
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  • pearsall001
    pearsall001 Posts: 5,068
    edited January 2010
    Hawkeye wrote: »
    Well said Phil!

    Gordon

    Hey Gordon, I take it you're still thoroughly enjoying those Mac 501's!!! I'm still working on that MC 402 here though.

    I think a lot of guys simply think that adding a sub (or better yet two) is all about filling in the low bottom end. Man, they couldn't be more wrong...a quality, well integrated sub really elevates the whole listening experience. Of course they're there for the bottom end when needed, but it's the other attributes that simply have to be heard & felt to fully understand. Your main speakers (regardless of what they are) are now fully liberated & now perform in ways you never heard them attain before. It's magic I tell ya!!!
    "2 Channel & 11.2 HT "Two Channel:Magnepan LRSSchiit Audio Freya S - SS preConsonance Ref 50 - Tube preParasound HALO A21+ 2 channel ampBluesound NODE 2i streameriFi NEO iDSD DAC Oppo BDP-93KEF KC62 sub Home Theater:Full blown 11.2 set up.
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  • MillerLiteScott
    MillerLiteScott Posts: 2,561
    edited January 2010
    Are you guys using external crossovers?

    How are you blending the crossover point between the sub and your mains?

    I have been playing around with a very basic set up using the speaker wire through the sub to the speakers but it seems to be ruining my imaging. Without the sub the little Insignia's image very well with a little bass, I add the sub and I am now listening to 2 speakers with a lot more bass.

    Scott
    I like speakers that are bigger than a small refrigerator but smaller than a big refrigerator:D
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,033
    edited January 2010
    MillerLiteScott wrote: »
    Are you guys using external crossovers?

    How are you blending the crossover point between the sub and your mains?
    Hello Scott, while I can't speak for them, I am actively x-ing over with a Velodyne SMS-1. The SMS stands for sub woofer management system, I have no clue what the 1 stands for.

    In a nutshell, what it does is takes the sub and blends it with the mains. At the same time it blends both with the room, calibrated precisely to your sweet spot. The adjustments are virtually infinite and very precise to adjust to your liking. Here's aPDF made by Outlaw audio that explains all that the SMS-1 will do for you....

    http://pdf.outlawaudio.com/outlaw/docs/sms1guide.pdf

    I currently am running the SMS-1 with the VMPS Larger and whatever amp I choose. I found the best blend was with [believe it or not] a Carver M1.0t MKII. Even Bob Carver himself asked how I got the sub to blend so well. Many a folk has asked the same thing with some heavy hitters asking me if the sub was even on. It was, they just didn't notice it was on because of the integration between the sub and the mains and both to the room's acoustics.
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • treitz3
    treitz3 Posts: 19,033
    edited January 2010
    One more thing, I finally received a set of [very close too] full range speakers. They are the Tyler Linbrook Signature series speakers and I don't know as of late as to whether or not I will be keeping the sub. The speakers go down to 25Hz but I would swear that they dig lower at reference levels.

    More time and experimentation will answer my own question on whether to keep it in the loop or not.
    ~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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  • I-SIG
    I-SIG Posts: 2,243
    edited January 2010
    leroyjr1 wrote: »
    You shouldn't need a sub with the SRS's. Just my opinion. They have plenty low end for two channel

    Like I said, due to room dynaimcs, the SRS's alone have a 20dB canyon right in the middle of the midd-bass. Only way to fix that is a subwoofer or a new room and I can't afford a new room.

    Wes
    Link: http://polkarmy.com/forums

    Sony 75" Bravia 4K | Polk Audio SDA-SRS's (w/RDO's & Vampire Posts) + SVS PC+ 25-31 | AudioQuest Granite (mids) + BWA Silver (highs) | Cary Audio CAD-200 | Signal Cable Silver Resolution XLR's | Rotel Michi P5 | Signal Cable Silver Resolution XLR's | Cambridge Audio azur 840C--Wadia 170i + iPod jammed w/ lossless audio--Oppo 970 | Pure|AV PF31d
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  • I-SIG
    I-SIG Posts: 2,243
    edited January 2010
    MillerLiteScott wrote: »
    Are you guys using external crossovers?

    How are you blending the crossover point between the sub and your mains?

    Scott

    Scott,

    I'm not running any crossovers except what's on the SVS. Despite my canyon in the mid-bass, the SRS's, from 45hz down, perform strongly and when coupled with SVS and the fact that human hearing is not linear, especially in those low octaves, there's no way I would want to give up the performance of the SRS's.

    I am running the SVS crossover right at 80hz since the SRS's canyon doesn't recover until about 75hz, I need a little blending space. I'll see if I can post my response chart from Excel showing both curves, without and without the sub.

    Wes
    Link: http://polkarmy.com/forums

    Sony 75" Bravia 4K | Polk Audio SDA-SRS's (w/RDO's & Vampire Posts) + SVS PC+ 25-31 | AudioQuest Granite (mids) + BWA Silver (highs) | Cary Audio CAD-200 | Signal Cable Silver Resolution XLR's | Rotel Michi P5 | Signal Cable Silver Resolution XLR's | Cambridge Audio azur 840C--Wadia 170i + iPod jammed w/ lossless audio--Oppo 970 | Pure|AV PF31d
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  • Ern Dog
    Ern Dog Posts: 2,237
    edited January 2010
    treitz3 wrote: »
    One more thing, I finally received a set of [very close too] full range speakers. They are the Tyler Linbrook Signature series speakers and I don't know as of late as to whether or not I will be keeping the sub. The speakers go down to 25Hz but I would swear that they dig lower at reference levels.

    More time and experimentation will answer my own question on whether to keep it in the loop or not.

    I was in the same spot you are in and recently decided to let my 15" velodyne sub go and let the Linbrooks do it all. It was better with the sub, no doubt, but I had to sell it for financial reasons (upgraded amp). Dual subs would be fun to try in the future.
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  • mrbofus
    mrbofus Posts: 297
    edited January 2010
    WOW!
    Thanks for all the input. I currently have RTi8's and onkyo 507. My original plan was to do a 5.1 system, but now I am considering a surround bar for the LCD.
    I am really new to all this so I guess I need to hear some different set ups.
    Thanks again,
    Greg
    Sharp Aqous 40" LCD
    Onkyo TX SR-507 AVR
    Onkyo DX-C390 CD Changer
    POLK RTI8 Mains--Cherry
    the rest...in process...slowly!!
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  • MillerLiteScott
    MillerLiteScott Posts: 2,561
    edited January 2010
    Thanks Tom and Wes for your responses.

    I am currently just playing around with a set up I may use for a fundraiser at the end of February.

    But what this has made me realize is that I am missing the very bottom end and some weight that is not present with my SDA 2B's.

    Back when Polk was circulating the micro-pro 1000 (IIRC) I did hook it up to my main rig and I liked the weight but for some reason using a one channel on my integrateds pre-out RCA to the RCA input on the sub caused my SDA to disappear. Tom I would also consider my 2B's to be nearly full range.

    I think the passive radiator also contributes to the complication of integrating a sub(s).

    Sorry for the threadjack.

    Scott
    I like speakers that are bigger than a small refrigerator but smaller than a big refrigerator:D
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  • I-SIG
    I-SIG Posts: 2,243
    edited January 2010
    MillerLiteScott wrote: »
    Thanks Tom and Wes for your responses.

    I am currently just playing around with a set up I may use for a fundraiser at the end of February.

    But what this has made me realize is that I am missing the very bottom end and some weight that is not present with my SDA 2B's.

    Back when Polk was circulating the micro-pro 1000 (IIRC) I did hook it up to my main rig and I liked the weight but for some reason using a one channel on my integrateds pre-out RCA to the RCA input on the sub caused my SDA to disappear. Tom I would also consider my 2B's to be nearly full range.

    I think the passive radiator also contributes to the complication of integrating a sub(s).

    Sorry for the threadjack.

    Scott

    Scott,

    Try running a stereo pair of RCA's to the sub's input instead of one channel. I have never tried a single channel, but with a stereo input my SDA is strong.

    Wes
    Link: http://polkarmy.com/forums

    Sony 75" Bravia 4K | Polk Audio SDA-SRS's (w/RDO's & Vampire Posts) + SVS PC+ 25-31 | AudioQuest Granite (mids) + BWA Silver (highs) | Cary Audio CAD-200 | Signal Cable Silver Resolution XLR's | Rotel Michi P5 | Signal Cable Silver Resolution XLR's | Cambridge Audio azur 840C--Wadia 170i + iPod jammed w/ lossless audio--Oppo 970 | Pure|AV PF31d
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  • mrbofus
    mrbofus Posts: 297
    edited January 2010
    ^^^its all cool!
    Sharp Aqous 40" LCD
    Onkyo TX SR-507 AVR
    Onkyo DX-C390 CD Changer
    POLK RTI8 Mains--Cherry
    the rest...in process...slowly!!
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  • MillerLiteScott
    MillerLiteScott Posts: 2,561
    edited January 2010
    I-SIG wrote: »
    Scott,

    Try running a stereo pair of RCA's to the sub's input instead of one channel. I have never tried a single channel, but with a stereo input my SDA is strong.

    Wes

    On my list of things to do today.:)

    Thanks
    I like speakers that are bigger than a small refrigerator but smaller than a big refrigerator:D
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  • I-SIG
    I-SIG Posts: 2,243
    edited January 2010
    MillerLiteScott wrote: »
    On my list of things to do today.:)

    Thanks

    So....?

    Wes
    Link: http://polkarmy.com/forums

    Sony 75" Bravia 4K | Polk Audio SDA-SRS's (w/RDO's & Vampire Posts) + SVS PC+ 25-31 | AudioQuest Granite (mids) + BWA Silver (highs) | Cary Audio CAD-200 | Signal Cable Silver Resolution XLR's | Rotel Michi P5 | Signal Cable Silver Resolution XLR's | Cambridge Audio azur 840C--Wadia 170i + iPod jammed w/ lossless audio--Oppo 970 | Pure|AV PF31d
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  • MillerLiteScott
    MillerLiteScott Posts: 2,561
    edited January 2010
    I hooked it up with 2 RCA interconnects and my SDA was still there and it added that bottom octave that I just was not getting, Although not as drmatic as I thought it would be. After a little fiddling it sounded pretty good for less than 5 minutes of work.

    I am sure if I had one of those fancy SMS-1's i could have made it even better.

    My biggest question is how do you handle the difference between the Mid woofer and the PR when you use a sub?

    Scott ( Now A POLKologist)
    I like speakers that are bigger than a small refrigerator but smaller than a big refrigerator:D
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  • I-SIG
    I-SIG Posts: 2,243
    edited January 2010
    MillerLiteScott wrote: »
    My biggest question is how do you handle the difference between the Mid woofer and the PR when you use a sub?

    Scott ( Now A POLKologist)

    Not sure how to answer that question. I think the biggest thing is to take the time with an Excel spreadsheet with the frequency corrections, your Rat Shack SPL meter, and a 1/3 octave bass tone CD and play with the crossover frequency and phasing.

    It may take several hours but the effort is worth it.

    Wes
    Link: http://polkarmy.com/forums

    Sony 75" Bravia 4K | Polk Audio SDA-SRS's (w/RDO's & Vampire Posts) + SVS PC+ 25-31 | AudioQuest Granite (mids) + BWA Silver (highs) | Cary Audio CAD-200 | Signal Cable Silver Resolution XLR's | Rotel Michi P5 | Signal Cable Silver Resolution XLR's | Cambridge Audio azur 840C--Wadia 170i + iPod jammed w/ lossless audio--Oppo 970 | Pure|AV PF31d
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  • ben62670
    ben62670 Posts: 15,969
    edited January 2010
    I like a sub crossed at 40-60hz. I have tried it with a few different systems and have heard it with others systems.
    Please. Please contact me a ben62670 @ yahoo.com. Make sure to include who you are, and you are from Polk so I don't delete your email. Also I am now physically unable to work on any projects. If you need help let these guys know. There are many people who will help if you let them know where you are.
    Thanks
    Ben
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  • rcrook317
    rcrook317 Posts: 280
    edited January 2010
    thread 2 long to read all of posts,but my 2 cents is go for it,once i added a sub i knew i could never go back.
    i listen to mostly rock music and feeling that kick drum just does it for me,plus my setup does both music and movies,a sub is a MUST for ht imo.
    fronts=rti12s(cherry)
    center=csi3(cherry)
    sub=psw125(cherry)
    emotiva xpa-2
    harmon kardon 354
    sony cdp
    ipod 8gb
    audioquest diamondback 1m
    "Maesto" straightwire cables
    pangea ac-9
    playstation3/120gb=blu-ray/media server
    monitor=lg 55inch lcd(1080p)
    TT Set-up=Pro-Ject RM 1.3
    Kenwood Phono
    bren1 Clamp
    Herbies Slipmat

    "It doesnt mean that much to me,to mean that much to you"
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