Surge Protector/Power Strips

westom

kolyan2k wrote: »

BUT inside it gets filtered and isolated. And if you look at specs, unlike all outlets which get filtered by 80bd filter, high current outlets gets filters by different 60db filter which proves that its isolated from all other power sources.

Learn how large (and expensive) a filter must be to exceed what is already inside electronics. If you need filtering, then view products from Zerosurge, Brickwall, or Surgex.

Any filtering that would be done in electronics must already be inside electronics. For example, power starts by being filtered. Then converted from AC to high voltage DC. Then filtered again. Then converted from high voltage DC to high voltage radio waves. Then converted to low voltage radio waves while being filtered and galvanically isolated. Then converted from radio waves to DC. Then filtered again. Why so much filtering? Because all electronics must contain massive filtering to meet international standards.

What will a filter on a power cord do? Virtually nothing because a power supply already does superior filtering - as described in an above paragraph. To be better, well, see the size of those Brickwall, et al solutions.

Posted were claims not backed by any specs or circuit description. Even after requested, those numbers are still not provided. Why? Because those numbers do not exist. Virtually no isolation exists - as made even more obvious by the expression 'non-inductive noise filtration'. IOW that filter can be a 20 cent capacitor - that every electronic power supply already contains.

Show us numeric specs. Not subjective claims from a sales brochure. Those devices DO what they state. And they do not claim to accomplish mythical claims that others have posted. Take a three dollar power strip. Add some ten cent protector parts. Sell it as a $7 grocery store protector or a $150 Monster Cable protector. And both claim to do the same thing. Which is not noise reduction.

What does the protector do? Nothing. Absolutely nothing until 120 VAC exceeds 330 volts. Even that number - the let-through voltage - is stated clearly on its box. How does it do any of those things you claim it does? Even its spec numbers do not make those claims.

Well it does those other things. And then we view numbers. It does claim to do 'near zero'. 'Near zero' is sufficient to claim numerous miracles on a sales brochure. That is what subjective sales brochures are for. To make you wish a 'near zero' solution is a complete soution.

Those AC power receptacles on a magic box rear connect directly and non-isolated to AC mains. Which is what they mean by 'non-inductive noise filtration'.

Somehow a magic box will eliminate all power problems? Wow. That company must own the market having done what nobody could do for generations. Or maybe the sales brochure is doing what sales brochures do best - promote myths to those who just want to believe. Again, where are those spec numbers? Still not provided. Those devices do not do what so many want to believe.

concealer404

^How many times do i have to point out that many of these will TRIM or BOOST an electrical current to stay at optimum levels?

A surge protector only, like what you're saying, may not step in until 330v. That is NOT the case with my unit.

bigaudiofanatic

I am going to agree with concealer on this one. He points out a lot of good info on his posts that make it all make sense.

concealer404

nguyendot wrote: »

Nice writeup. One problem - you forgot to address the part about power conditioning, voltage stabilization, and how much power it can handle.

These are generally the most important things to get a power center for in home audio as they affect the sound quality that your equipment produces. Yes surge protection is important, but if it can't do any of these 3 things correctly, all it does is cut off the power when a surge hits. We want good sound, do your whole house protectors do this?

Westom, please address this post. You've neatly avoided these points in every one of your posts, despite multiple people agreeing with this, and even offering up these same sentiments on their own.

halo71

Wow, someone has a hardon to prove we're all stupid for buying these types of units ehh?

concealer404

halo71 wrote: »

Wow, someone has a hardon to prove we're all stupid for buying these types of units ehh?

Power conditioners: SERIOUS BUSINESS

nguyendot

Eh I like mine. No matter how many page-long posts he makes on how he doesn't like them or how there aren't any published numbers (you can ask for them....should be filed with FCC) .... I'm not gonna stop using my unit. It makes my audio better.....The end.

concealer404

nguyendot wrote: »

Eh I like mine. No matter how many page-long posts he makes on how he doesn't like them or how there aren't any published numbers (you can ask for them....should be filled with FCC) .... I'm not gonna stop using my unit. It makes my audio better.....The end.

Bingo. He's only talking about numbers, hasn't once touched on the sonic aspects of them. I like the way it sounds with it, and it gives me some peace of mind. That's plenty of perks to keep it in my system.

nguyendot

Dude, do you live on here? It's like you're glued to polkaudio forums while at work. (I only notice because I am as well)/

concealer404

nguyendot wrote: »

Dude, do you live on here? It's like you're glued to polkaudio forums while at work. (I only notice because I am as well)/

Hahah! Yeah. A lot of my job consists of just running programs at the moment, so i have a lot of "down time". That'll probably change once the new year hits and i get my new accounts.

grimmace19

I enjoy the 60 dollar monster hts1600 I got from ebay about a month ago. Surge protection is like an insurance policy... spend money today to save your **** in the future (maybe). It's all a risk, I can't say I will ever need this thing to protect me but guess what... it also has the advantage of safely plugging 8 things into an outlet that normally houses 2.

TSWisla

I just upgraded to a Hydra 2 from my panamax 5300 for my amp. I am using an adcom ace 515 for the rest of my components. I think that spending the money for a better one is surely worth it. I can't see how spending 6K for one would make that much of a difference though, but I have been wrong before...

westom

concealer404 wrote: »

^How many times do i have to point out that many of these will TRIM or BOOST an electrical current to stay at optimum levels?

How many times must I then ask, "Show me the numbers." Not sales brochure myths. Where are the numbers?

Described is exactly what the power supply inside every electronic appliance already does. For example, how low must voltage drop and a computer must still work perfectly fine? Voltage drops so low that incandescent lamps are at 50% intensity - and every ATX computer must work uninterrupted. It has been a standard for decades. Intel even says a fully loaded computer must start up OK when voltage drops that low.

So what does that magic box do? Something that is already done inside electronic appliances for how much money? That assumes the magic box really does that. Show me numeric specs that make that claim.

What does low voltage harm? Electric motors. Not any electronics. A voltage below 5% is harmful to electric motors. Which is why utilities must maintain voltage in that region or completely stop supplying power. Why are you spending massive sums on that magic box for electronics? If voltages need be maintained, it must be maintained on electric motor appliances; not on electronic appliances.

Meanwhile international standards from even 40 years ago say that low voltage must never damage any electronic appliance. In fact, the chart is quite blunt about it. The phrase in all capital letters is, "No Damage Region". Low voltage only cause damage when myths are promoted.

So again, where are manufacturer spec numbers that claim what you have posted. I only see subjective claims from a sales brochure. Sales brochures - where lies can be promoted to those who 'know without learning'. Where are those manufacturer spec numbers that claim what you believe? Still not provided. Hearsay (from a sales brochure) does not create reality.

You spent how much for a magic box that only does what is already inside every electronic appliance? Why? Hearsay - not facts - recommended those expensive boxes. Where are the actual manufacturer spec numbers?

concealer404

westom wrote: »

How many times must I then ask, "Show me the numbers." Not sales brochure myths. Where are the numbers?

Described is exactly what the power supply inside every electronic appliance already does. For example, how low must voltage drop and a computer must still work perfectly fine? Voltage drops so low that incandescent lamps are at 50% intensity - and every ATX computer must work uninterrupted. It has been a standard for decades. Intel even says a fully loaded computer must start up OK when voltage drops that low.

So what does that magic box do? Something that is already done inside electronic appliances for how much money? That assumes the magic box really does that. Show me numeric specs that make that claim.

What does low voltage harm? Electric motors. Not any electronics. A voltage below 5% is harmful to electric motors. Which is why utilities must maintain voltage in that region or completely stop supplying power. Why are you spending massive sums on that magic box for electronics? If voltages need be maintained, it must be maintained on electric motor appliances; not on electronic appliances.

Meanwhile international standards from even 40 years ago say that low voltage must never damage any electronic appliance. In fact, the chart is quite blunt about it. The phrase in all capital letters is, "No Damage Region". Low voltage only cause damage when myths are promoted.

So again, where are manufacturer spec numbers that claim what you have posted. I only see subjective claims from a sales brochure. Sales brochures - where lies can be promoted to those who 'know without learning'. Where are those manufacturer spec numbers that claim what you believe? Still not provided. Hearsay (from a sales brochure) does not create reality.

You spent how much for a magic box that only does what is already inside every electronic appliance? Why? Hearsay - not facts - recommended those expensive boxes. Where are the actual manufacturer spec numbers?

If $97.99 is a massive sum, then i'm afraid you've 1) decided on the wrong hobby, and 2) decided to preach to the wrong masses.

I'm the one that's happy with it. If you're so against it, you can look it up. The one in question is an APC H10.

And still. You've neatly avoided the sentiments that they DO make a sonic difference. How about you either 1) admit that you don't know or 2) let us "sheeple" go ahead and buy our useless conditioners in peace without your heretic rantings.

I KNOW that it's trimming or boosting, because a pretty blue light comes on, and the 120v field stays where it is. Yet, if i take a measurement, i'll see that the outlet may be putting out 122, 123, or even 126v.

I don't care if the gear is fine at 126v or 114v or not. It was designed with 120v in mind, so obviously it'll work IDEALLY at 120v, will it not? If i can ensure that it gets fed 120v consistently for the low low low price of $97.99, then you bet your **** i will do so.


Here, i'll do your research for you:

http://www.apc.com/products/resource/include/techspec_index.cfm?base_sku=H10&tab=models

Have a blast. I don't see "near zero" anywhere in there. Do you?


And PLEASE address the other posts, for christ's sake.

concealer404

nguyendot wrote: »

Nice writeup. One problem - you forgot to address the part about power conditioning, voltage stabilization, and how much power it can handle.

These are generally the most important things to get a power center for in home audio as they affect the sound quality that your equipment produces. Yes surge protection is important, but if it can't do any of these 3 things correctly, all it does is cut off the power when a surge hits. We want good sound, do your whole house protectors do this?

fbm211 wrote: »

+1--My LCR2400 provides conditioning and voltage stabilization and also has seperate outlet banks for digital gear.And my system does sound better hooked up to the 2400.

fbm211 wrote: »

My LCR2400 also has plugs for high current.I had the amps plugged into the wall before I fixed my 2400 but after I tried the amps plugged into the 2400 the SQ was improved so there they stay.Everything was just cleaner sounding and the soundstage was greatly improved.

nguyendot wrote: »

Eh I like mine. No matter how many page-long posts he makes on how he doesn't like them or how there aren't any published numbers (you can ask for them....should be filed with FCC) .... I'm not gonna stop using my unit. It makes my audio better.....The end.

Soooo.... how 'bout it, naysayer?

westom

xcapri79 wrote: »

I agree. I've lost a TV (fortunately an old one), and other electronic equipment due to power surges using the elcheapo or no power bars.

We periodically autopsy surge damaged equipment to learn what failed. Most "surges" never existed. Surges are often blamed when the consumer has no electrical knowledge. Most failures are due to manufacturing defects. Parts fail. Then many somehow *know* it must have been a surge. Many believe what they are told to believe rather than learn reality.

What does that meter report? Nothing relevant. All electronics are perfectly happy even when AC voltage drops so low that incandescant bulbs are at less than 50% intensity. That expensive meter only says what you already knew. Your light bulbs reported the same thing.

What is the difference between the elcheapo power bar and your expensive one? Fancy paint. Both contain the same protector circuit. Both make the same protection claims in numeric specs.

Surges will never appear (be reported) on that meter. Surges are microsecond events. That meter will only report what it sees after a full second of monitoring. But the meter does get many to believe myths.
Surges occur typically once every seven years. Either energy is connected harmlessly to earth before entering a building. Or that energy hunts for earth destructively via appliances. A protector too close to appliances and too far from earth ground give surges even more paths to find earth, destructively, via any appliance in the room. Yes, we have traced surge damage because the protector earthed a surge through a network of powered off computers. But then we not only demand spec numbers. We also traced surges. And we also designed protection – so that direct lightning strikes did not even damage the protector.

Learn the circuit. That plug-in protector contains the same protector circuit selling for less than $7 in a grocery store. I guess they forgot to tell you that part. Surge protection is about where energy dissipates. Once inside a house, surge energy seeks earth destructively via appliances - no matter where that protector is located. No wonder that expensive protector with meter only claims to do what that $7 grocery store protector does.

The only effective protector is located when utility wires enter the building. Makes that short (ie ‘less than 10 foot’) connection to earth. Costs about $1 per protected appliance. What protects your other critical appliances such as dishwasher, furnace, and bathroom GFCIs? The effective and much less expensive ‘whole house’ protector. BTW, that power bar protector also needs protection from a ‘whole house’ protector. Did they forget to mention that?

westom

concealer404 wrote: »

Soooo.... how 'bout it, naysayer?

I got the exact same statements by people so anti-American and naive as to believe Saddam had WMDs. We viewed spec numbers such as those from the advance physics labs (ie Los Alamos) and from other responsibe sources (including Amb Wilson). Why did the minority who learn from facts also know reality? Responsible posters learn and can post numbers - which is also why the Saddam WMD 'subjective' claims were myths.

You can post subjective claims all day long. An expenisve power bar protector still has the same circuit selling for $7 in grocery stores.

So, let's see what most every fire department has also seen - scary pictures:
http://www.hanford.gov/rl/?page=556&parent=554
http://www.ddxg.net/old/surge_protectors.htm
http://www.zerosurge.com/HTML/movs.html
http://tinyurl.com/3x73ol
http://www3.cw56.com/news/articles/local/BO63312/
http://www.nmsu.edu/~safety/news/lesson-learned/surgeprotectorfire.htm
http://www.pennsburgfireco.com/fullstory.php?58339

A fire marshal even describes why the problem exists. You would locate ineffective protectors on a desktop of papers or behind furniture on a rug? Yes, that is where those expensive and ineffective protectors are located to even cause the Boston apartment fire.

A minimally sufficient protector never spits sparks. Norma also expensive protectors (which cable companies recommend removing). On 27 Dec 2008 in alt.fiftyplus entitled "The Power Outage" also describes the danger of power strip protectors:
> Today, the cable company came to replace a wire. Well the cable
> man pulled a wire and somehow yanked loose their "ground" wire.
> The granddaughter on the computer yelled and ran because sparks
> and smoke were coming from the power surge strip.

You quoted many who approve of those scary pictures? Who would even deny what Norma saw. So how often did you analyze surge damage as an engineer? Zero times. Hearsay is also called junk science. Your protectors are recommended, in every example, only by hearsay and wild speculation. Claims that even violation of what manufacturer's numbers report. Scary pictures are reality - protectors grossly undersized to maximize profits. To even fail so that the naive will recommend them.

Where is that manufacturer spec number that lists each type of surge and protection from that surge? Oh. You again forgot to post those numbers? I wonder why?

concealer404

^Go to my link, and click documentation. You didn't look very hard.

I didn't realize that we were talking about WHERE we put these things... Mine is on an audio rack. Ball in your court. I don't have a separate ground wire, either. But i get it... i'm anti-american because i don't use a $12 (or was it $10?) power strip from the grocery store.

I don't give a **** about science. It sounds better. You think it might have something to do with the components getting the 120v they were designed for? Maybe? I sure do.

Just hedging a guess here... but i imagine that you don't believe there's a difference in cables, either, and that your homebase is Audioholics?


But here's the fact that justifies MY purchase: I had this stuff in a simple $7 power strip that you can get in grocery stores, (Wait, not sure if i got that... i may need you to post that a 7th time.) and it didn't sound as good.

May i also present Scenario C:

The last time i REALLY pushed my system, i was dimming the lights throughout the entire house. (50% or something? I thought you may have said something about that. Once or four times.) The indicator on the conditioner stayed at a rock solid 120v. I know for sure that i wouldn't feel comfortable doing that on a $9 power strip from my local grocery store. (Or was it $8? I don't think it's set in yet, you'll have to refresh my memory.)

This hobby IS subjective. It's NOT a science. We. Don't. Care. If it sounds better to us, it sounds better to us, and that's all that matters. Get over it.

But seriously... cables? Don't make a difference, right? And where is your home forum?

concealer404

Oh screw it. I don't care enough.

I LOVE MY POWER CONDITIONER!

Bye bye!

concealer404

This thread seems a lot shorter all of a sudden.....

halo71

I'd just like to know who "we" is!

concealer404

halo71 wrote: »

I'd just like to know who "we" is!

Him, and the "cables don't make a difference crowd."

westom

halo71 wrote: »

I'd just like to know who "we" is!

People who also designed this stuff. And who learned by autopsying failures. Who traced the problem. Who literally replaced semiconductors to make electronics work - so that we knew our original analysis was correct. Who could do this stuff because we know how electricity works.

And we are also a minority. An overwhelming majority know only because it was the first thing they were told - often by retail store salesmen. Knew without bothering to first learn the numbers. An overwhelming majority here demonstrate same. Want to attack rather than learn.

We knew that we knew nothing until we also had learned the numbers. Such knowledge always gets the most naive to post insults rather than learn numbers. Those line conditioners are promoted mostly by those who have no electrical knowledge. Many only know the first thing they are told rather than ask damning questions. Rather than first demand numbers from that technically naive salesman.

Where are the manufacturer's numeric specs? Why do so many recommend that product when not even one can provide the numbers? This is also why Saddam had WMDs. A majority will automatically believe the first thing they are told to believe rather than first learn facts and numbers. Power conditioners are another example of how scams can be so easily promoted by myths, hearsay, wild speculation, and junk science. That reality only makes the most na

halo71

So these "scams" are what pays your bills? I find it hard to believe that the masses of people that own this equipment are as "naive" as you say.

Also are UFO's real? I also wonder if Sadam's WMD launchers use surge protectors or power conditioners. Things that make ya go hummmm eh?

concealer404

halo71 wrote: »

So these "scams" are what pays your bills? I find it hard to believe that the masses of people that own this equipment are as "naive" as you say.

Also are UFO's real?

PLEASE tell me he just admitted to working for a company that produces power conditioners, or even sells them. If so, PM me with the company he said he works for.

westom

halo71 wrote: »

So these "scams" are what pays your bills? I find it hard to believe that the masses of people that own this equipment are as "naive" as you say.

Then you do not come from where the work gets done. Why are over 50% of the engineers in the Silicon Valley now Chinese and Indian immigrants. It is especially scary how technically naive our 20 year olds are. And how few Americans now are educated in things technical.

One need not even know how electricity works to pass the A+ Certified computer tech exams. That right. Most every computer repairman does not even possess basic electrical knowledge.

Believe all you want. That is what myth purveyors (salesmen) love to hear. The informed, instead, know. Know, like in reading and posting those manufacturer spec numbers. Why did you not read those tech specs? Why are you instead 'believing' - also called speculation. That is the point. You are too busy believing rather than doing what is necessary to know. Where are the manufacturer spec numbers that make those claims? Those numbers do not exist. No problem. A majority would rather believe than know.

halo71

Hey, I take offense to that statement. I am not a "naive 20 year old", I am a naive 38 year old thank you very much!

Either way, seems like you joined this forum just to try to make everyone see through the same set of beer goggles as you do. Seems rather pointless to me. But some don't have nothing better to do I guess.


Next you gonna tell us all that tube amp manufacturers are pulling the wool over our eyes?

concealer404

Amps all sound the same. Power conditioners are worse than $9 (or was it $7?) power strips from your grocery store. All cables sound identical. Bose rules. Emotiva is the best at any price range. You're all unamerican. Tubes are a dead technology and sound like crap. But they all sound the same.

Did i cover it all?

concealer404

westom wrote:

Then you do not come from where the work gets done. Why are over 50% of the engineers in the Silicon Valley now Chinese and Indian immigrants. It is especially scary how technically naive our 20 year olds are. And how few Americans now are educated in things technical.

One need not even know how electricity works to pass the A+ Certified computer tech exams. That right. Most every computer repairman does not even possess basic electrical knowledge.

Believe all you want. That is what myth purveyors (salesmen) love to hear. The informed, instead, know. Know, like in reading and posting those manufacturer spec numbers. Why did you not read those tech specs? Why are you instead 'believing' - also called speculation. That is the point. You are too busy believing rather than doing what is necessary to know. Where are the manufacturer spec numbers that make those claims? Those numbers do not exist. No problem. A majority would rather believe than know.

I KNOW that the conditioner made a positive sonic improvement to my sound. Suck it. Belief has nothing to do with it.

westom

halo71 wrote: »

Hey, I take offense to that statement.

Who said anything about you? Cited was how technical knowledge has so decreased that the Silicon Valley cannot find enough 20 year olds to do the work. Rather than deal with facts, you would take insult even at something that was not said? What kind of logic is that?

Demonstrates why so many emotionally believe myths about line conditioners rather than get logical - to first learn the facts. Why are you posting without those manufacturer spec numbers? That is the point. That is the topic. You would post offense rather than learn facts and numbers? That is the marketplace where line conditioners at massive profits are recommended only on hearsay and junk science.

Monster Cable has a long history of selling scams to the naive. Monster even sold speaker wire with polarity. If you reversed the wire - amp to speaker - then audio sounded worse. So many believed that lie as to pay $70 for Monster Cable speaker wire. Monster Cable is notorious for only selling the most profitable scams. But they are also selling to 20 year olds who never learned Monster's tainted history. Never learned how easily scams get promoted to the na