Wrong mating of cable/amp/receiver? = brightness

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  • danger boy
    danger boy Posts: 15,722
    edited April 2003
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    Another problem cropped up now. As you know I want to change out the connectors. from those angled pin connectors to either spades or banana plugs.

    problem is that most all spades and banana plugs only accept one set of wires.. not two like i have in my biwire cable.. does anyone know where I can get such a spade that will accept two 12 guage wires in one terminal?

    The pin connectors that are on the cable right now are modified.. in that the amp end that has two wires to each connector is crimpted down on a piece of copper then smashed down upon the angled pin connector. I may have to build something similar to that i think.
    PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
    Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin:
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,006
    edited April 2003
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    Al,

    Try this, http://www.monstercable.com/home_av/connectors/speaker_monsterlock.asp
    It says it will fit multiple gauge wires in the pin lock base and then you buy your choice of spades or bananas, which just screw on to the base.

    Jesse

    BTW, don't get the flex tips, they suck!!!
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • dthomps
    dthomps Posts: 352
    edited April 2003
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    Al, I was talking to a fellow forum member about CD players, and he highly recommended that very unit to me.
    I think he knows his stuff pretty darn well too, and I would trust his opinion well enough to buy it without listening first...
    He said that the DAC's in that unit were awesome. Peace. Mike
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  • danger boy
    danger boy Posts: 15,722
    edited April 2003
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    Jesse, I saw that too. I think i'll buy a pair of those and try them out. That is the way I'd like to go. The monster lock system is very flexible.


    Al
    PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
    Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin:
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  • F1nut
    F1nut Posts: 50,006
    edited April 2003
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    Cool, I hope it works for you.
    Political Correctness'.........defined

    "A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."

    President of Club Polk

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  • byteme
    byteme Posts: 73
    edited April 2003
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    Al,

    Sounds like you had a fun night! Sorry to hear it didn't yeild the results you were looking for, but at least you've narrowed some stuff down!

    You've got a couple routes you can go now. A dedicated CD player is one option and the Cambridge would be an excellent choice, as would a Rega Planet '99 or Ah! Njoe Tjoeb and all would be around $300-350. However, from my experience even the WORST dedicated DAC sounded better than the best one box player I listened to and it wasn't really even close. That being said, I should mention that the CD players I heard all cost less or the same as the DACs I've listened to so I would think the SHOULD sound better.

    If you do think it's the receiver that's causing the brightness then we might be barking up a whole new tree. When I added a preamp for two channel that really helped a lot too, and since you're already using outboard amps it's an easy hookup as well.

    Best case if you can get that Cambridge or another CD player in house to hear and see what affect it has that'd be great. Short of that, if it were my money, and having gone through a similar situation already I'd start with a DAC, if that still didn't do it then I'd try a preamp. If you'd like some suggestions there I can tell you what I went through!

    Good luck, keep me posted.
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  • danger boy
    danger boy Posts: 15,722
    edited April 2003
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    byteme,

    I'm thinking a DAC does make more sense as well. Although that Cambride Audio player does sound great.. I think an external DAC would sound better in the long run.

    I have seen a few Parasound DAC's on line recently. Do you know anything about them? I tried to look up and find out what I could on the other DAC's you suggested.

    The TubeDac looks interesting. If i went with that one.. i have heard of other people upgrading the tube in it. to something like a Telefunkin (sp)? Warmer sound.. etc.

    Anyway, i'm still learning about DAC's. I know very little about them... and I lilke to do my homework before i spend any money on anything audio or otherwise. I'll keep my eyes out for DAC's in the near future.

    thanks for your help and all the other guys who contributed to the tread.

    Al
    PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
    Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin:
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  • byteme
    byteme Posts: 73
    edited April 2003
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    Sorry, no experience with the Parasound. I'd check audioreview.com - I know I read up a little on it and it's gotten good reviews, but, it's a little bit older. If it were me, I'd spend the extra $50 or so and get the Scott Nixon Dackit. A used Channel Island VDA-1 with or without power supply would also be a great buy. Good thing about that one is if you don't like it you can turn it around and not lose anything. If you do go with the parasound, the 1000 model is a '92 and the 1100 has HDCD and is a '96 model. I'd stay away from the 1000 just because they are 10 years old - you'd be better off with an Adcom 600 for that same $200 range in that case, the Adcom was Stereophile "C" recommended in '96&97 for whatever that's worth ;)

    As far as the tubedac goes, I've talked to Scott pretty extensively and the way things are configured in the Tubedac, tube rolling won't change the sound much - if at all. It's not in nearly a critical position as preamp or especially amp tubes are, so you wouldn't have to worry about spending extra dough on tubes with that one. Now, a Cal Audio DAC is another story and tubes will make a sound difference in that one.

    I think you're wise to take your time. Read up on things and educate yourself. I like to do the same thing, trouble is, it always ends up costing me more money! A little knowledge is a dangerous thing!! :lol:

    As far as the Cambridge deck goes, I understand completley! When I had the Rega Planet in my system it sounded very good, I like the Sherwood Newcastle player better but they both sounded good. Then I got a DAC and it was a whole 'nother world all together.
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  • rscamer
    rscamer Posts: 70
    edited April 2003
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    I ran into this same problem when I added a carver to my front two chans for that extra umph. I ended up changing speaker placment and the most important thing was my room -the extra power really showed me I needed to start filling up my room with stuff that would not let the highs bounce everywhere. I managed to solve my problem without new audio equipment.
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  • jrausch
    jrausch Posts: 510
    edited April 2003
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    I have had all of the Parasound DAC's made and the one that smokes them all is the Ultra2000. The others are not as transparent and the music sounds dull in comparison. Unfortunately the 2000's were limited in production and are hard to find. I paid $500 for mine and I consider it the best component in my system. There are new 24bit DACs out that should be worth their weight. Perpetual Technology's and MSB are suppose to have some high ratings from stereophile, This would be where I would start again. Having the ability to to decode 24/96 DVD audio would be a plus. Look for the lowest jitter possible, below 100 picoseconds should do. The S/N ratio should be 110db or higher and channel seperation that's better than your pre-amp and amp. this will maximize your investment.

    Good luck
    "The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it."
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  • jrausch
    jrausch Posts: 510
    edited April 2003
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    Here is an edited sterophile review of the Parasound ultra DAC.

    Long a mainstay on the Stereophile magazine Recommended Components list, the Parasound D/AC-2000 Ultra produced (in the USA) in conjunction with the UltraAnalog company, is Parasound Products, Inc.’s latest, top-of-the-line digital-to-analog converter.
    Esteemed reviewer Robert Harley, after doing virtual handsprings over the unit, in direct, head-to-head comparison with other DACs that cost up to twice the price, concluded, “…the $2000.00 Parasound …delivered the musical goods. In short, the D/AC-2000 Ultra is a bargain and tops my list of recommended processors under $2500.” He fervently praised the unit up-and-down, in particular, for its authoritative bass response, “…with a nice tightness and punch that extended all the way to the bottom octave …a satisfying solidity and impact that conveyed the music’s rhythmic drive and power,” and for its spatial qualities, saying, “The D/AC-2000 Ultra’s soundstage performance was beyond anything I’ve ever heard in a similarly priced processor. The Parasound presented instrumental images against a jet-black background, with deep silences between notes. The sense of air… was… extraordinary…” adding, “Soundstage depth was [also] outstanding… [and] the expansive soundstage was surrounded by a wonderful bloom that extended beyond the loudspeaker boundaries.” He, also, highly praised the unit’s, “…fine rendering of detail and crystal clear transparency,” and noted, “…the Parasound D/AC-2000 Ultra sounded clean, tight, and spacious, and displayed a wonderful dynamic agility.” He, finally, went all out to say, “Vocal sibilance, hi-hat, and violin were all rendered with a purity of timbre that was among the best I’ve heard from any processor,” and exclaimed, “I had to constantly remind myself that this was a $2000.00 processor, not a megabuck unit. The D/AC-2000 Ultra was a real find.” (The full review appeared in Stereophile magazine Vol. 19, No. 4,
    "The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it."
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  • danger boy
    danger boy Posts: 15,722
    edited April 2003
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    thanks jrausch...

    the Parasound I was looking at on ebay was an older model from 1996. I think byteme pinned it down. it's the 1100 with HDCD. Retail new was around $1000. Sold on ebay for about $200. As much as I'd like to have a decent DAC.. i know I can't afford one that goes for two grand. I'm sure it's worth every penny too.

    I"ll keep looking and doing some more homework.. and keep my options open. It does look like i'll be going that route with a DAC though.

    Al
    PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
    Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin:
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  • jrausch
    jrausch Posts: 510
    edited April 2003
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    They now sell on the used market for a 1/4 of the original price.
    "The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it."
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  • brettw22
    brettw22 Posts: 7,621
    edited April 2003
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    If you have a receiver that has 192 dac's, wouldn't that be better than an external dac that only processes 96?

    I don't totally understand the DAC thing, but for the techno/trance/house music that I listen to, I don't know that it would make *THAT* big of a difference.........who knows.......
    comment comment comment comment. bitchy.
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  • danger boy
    danger boy Posts: 15,722
    edited April 2003
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    good question brettw22, I don't have the answer to that one.. i'm sure someone will though.

    My receiver does not have those DAC's (96/24) in it. My two channel music listening always sounded muddy in the mids and highs. That was untill i installed the Monster Z2 and it brought everything up front. I can now hear things I was missing. That also brought forward a little to much brightness in my system. I'm still trying to figure out where that brightness is coming from. It is the receiver, the DVD player I use for CD music, is it the front main speakers? Hence this thread I started.

    I guess with an external DAC. A decent one at least it will make whatever you play out of your player sound better. I use my DVD player as my CD player too. Brett are you doing the same? Or do you have a stand alone CD player?
    PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
    Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin:
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  • byteme
    byteme Posts: 73
    edited April 2003
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    brett,

    Not necessarily. It's gonna be based on the quality of the DACs and surrounding components. The advantage a DAC is going to have is that it's built ONLY for that and has much more dedicated power and quality parts. Your receivers DACs, while they might decode at potentially higher rates, most won't upsample to those rates so you'll be getting a lower bitrate anyway. The receiver DACs will also in some cases be multi purpose decoding damn near everything from the digital stream from a DVD all the way down to redbook cd.

    Danger boy, here's an excellent option for a DAC that includes a cable as well - http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?t=2230 - blue book on the used unit is $450 for mint. They seem to be going for much more than the asking price on audiogon.com too! If your interested, this won't last. Original retail was $2500!
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  • danger boy
    danger boy Posts: 15,722
    edited May 2003
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    After a month of moving things around.. burning in the Monster Z2 cables and getting used to the brightness in my system now.

    I've come to the conclusion that I'd like to add an external DAC to my dvd player.. for two channel music listening. that's the place where I find the harsh upper end highs to be to much to take for very long.

    I did my homework over the past month and think that a DAC would be the best solution to my problem. I even thought about adding a pre amp.. or a better receiver. BUt that too may not take care of the brightness in my system.. so a DAC makes sense at this time.

    I've heard nothing but good things from people here about external DAC's. I've read everything on the internet there is to read about DAC's, and reviews up the ying - yang to know that I want one now. Problem is.. which one? Isn't that always the toughest question of all? Which one?

    I've got about $600 (or less) to spend on one.. so i'm looking for one right now.

    that's it.. anyone have anything to add, please do.

    thanks, Al
    PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
    Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin:
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  • jrausch
    jrausch Posts: 510
    edited May 2003
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    DOes your DVD player have Coax output. This will give you a much smoother more analog sound than an optical output. If it's smooth high and killer midrange with musical bass find something with a 20bit Ultranalog DAC. In your price range this is all I can recommend. Granted there a 24bit procs out there, but they will not come close to what this DAC can do. Here is a DAC in your price range. The only thing it does not have is HDCD and it only gives you a marginal performance gain over the all ready killer performance of the DAC.

    http://cgi.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cl.pl?dgtlconv&1057284625
    "The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it."
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  • gidrah
    gidrah Posts: 3,049
    edited May 2003
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    byteme: I've been looking at Scott Nixon's site almost daily for a couple of months now. Have you done any of his kits?

    I'm planning on getting an ampkit and maybe a dackit down the road.
    Make it Funky! :)
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  • danger boy
    danger boy Posts: 15,722
    edited May 2003
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    jrausch,

    I don't think i'll need a DACwith HDCD abilities. I have very few HDCD's anyway. Yes my Toshiba DVD player has coax out. I use the coax out to the receiver right now.. so I was thinking of using the optical out to do to the DAC. but i can always switch those to around without any problems. Using the optical out to the receiver and the coax out to the DAC.

    Any difference in quality if a DAC has 18 bit chips as opposed to 20 or 24 bit chips? Can the chips be upgraded?

    I have read a lot about people upgrading their DAC's.

    Do any of you have more than one DAC in your system?

    How about tube DAC's? I've been looking at the Cal Audio Sigma and Alpha's.

    thanks, Al
    PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
    Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin:
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  • jrausch
    jrausch Posts: 510
    edited May 2003
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    The thing about the bit rating is kind of like an amp rating. Design and quality play into a DAC’s ability to give you a more accurate and resolute signal. Burr-brown is the most well known and widely used DAC’s and although they are used in some of the most expensive outboards they are certainly not the best. It would take some time explaining the differences in how they work. All I can say is the best way to judge them is do a personal demo or read as many of the reviews on the ones in your price range. See if the descriptions of how it sounds match your personal tastes and what you expect it to do. From your descriptions you gave in prior posts I concluded the Ultra was your best bet because I was having the exact same issues. As far as upgrading to a newer chip some manufactures build DAC’s with upgradeable boards that must be sent into the factory at some times substantial prices and can only be upgraded to a certain point. The older PS audio DAC that I was recommending is not upgradeable, but for it’s time got very favorable reviews from Stereophile and Audioreview that described fixes for your downfalls. I would like to recommend the Parasound Ultra, but it was a limited production unit that very few are willing to give up. I waited 6 months before I found one on e-bay for $500 and the guy called me personally to make sure his baby had arrived. Once I plugged it in I understood his feelings toward the unit. The only reason he sold it was he became a Classe’ dealer and replaced it with a $4k unit.


    Another couple of factors to consider are how it reacts with your pre-amp and amp. Is the pre clean enough to pass the higher resolution and possibly more linear signal? Will the amp have enough power reserves to meet the demands of a more dynamic output signal? A good DAC will have a profound influence on the way your entire system sounds and if the rest of your equipment is not up to the task it could create a negative effect. I’m using Parasound’s top of the line 2/ch pre with Adcom’s top 2/ch amp and I can’t think of any way to improve the sound except trying a higher quality transport. It sounds exactly the way I expect it to. I have Parasounds AVC-2500U pre/pro with quality 24bit DACs and the 20bit Ultra smokes it in every conceivable way. I have another DAC in mind to beat this one, but @ $3500 it will have to wait.
    "The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it."
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  • jrausch
    jrausch Posts: 510
    edited May 2003
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    Here is a link to the Manley version of this DAC. Manley is considered to be the ultimate DAC by the most elite audiophile snobs. They also build killer tube amps.

    http://www.manleylabs.com/containerpages/dualatod.html

    these reviews helped me make my choice.

    http://www.audioreview.com/DACs/Parasound,DAC,2000,ULTRA/PRD_117043_2738crx.aspx
    "The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it."
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  • dorokusai
    dorokusai Posts: 25,577
    edited May 2003
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    Why is it disco'd? Is Manley still is business?
    CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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  • jrausch
    jrausch Posts: 510
    edited May 2003
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    Manley is still there. They have since upgraded to a 24bit DAC considered to be the best made DAC. I was just pointing out that the Ultra made into some of the best products just a few years back. These DAC's can best alot of today's 24bit wannabe's. Manley has a full range of tube products. A full system would cost an average man's yearly salary. This is usually reserved for trust fund audiophiles.
    "The only way to get rid of a temptation is to yield to it."
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  • danger boy
    danger boy Posts: 15,722
    edited May 2003
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    I finally found an inexpensive DAC I'm going to try out. Bought it on eBay last night. Should get here hopefully (knock on wood) by Saturday.

    It's a California Audio Labs Alpha DAC w/ Mullard tubes. I read everything I could find out about that DAC and i kept coming back to it. I also read some stuff on different tubes.. dang some of those German made tubes can get ahem... pricey. :p

    Anyway guys.. thanks for your help.. and i'll let you know how it sounds once it arrives and I get it installed.

    I do have a few questions for anyone that might know the answer.

    When using a DAC with tubes... does turning it on and off burn out the tube faster? Do tubes need time to warm up to operating tempature? Is it a good or bad idea to leave the DAC on all the time? How do you know when a tube is burned out? It's been a long time since I used anything with tubes in it.

    Here is a pic off the auction. I'll take more pics when it arrives.

    thanks guys,
    Al
    PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
    Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin:
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  • danger boy
    danger boy Posts: 15,722
    edited May 2003
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    I posted a review of my new DAC in the electronics section here. CHeck it out.
    PolkFest 2012, who's going>?
    Vancouver, Canada Sept 30th, 2012 - Madonna concert :cheesygrin:
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