Outlaw 1050 v. Yamaha

Sfox7076 · April 2003

I have read many of the postings in here, but I finally have reason to write. I am looking to upgrade my Yamaha HTR-5240 that is finally showing a few signs of aging. I can get a Yamaha RX-V630 for $350 or a RX-V1300 for $480. Is the Outlaw worth the difference in price? I only have about $500 to spend. I have RT600i's in the front, a 245i center, Rt25i rears and a PSW 350 in a room that is 15 x 11. The DTS decoding issue kind of worries me. I have a DVD player with 6 channel outs hooked up to the 5240 for DVD-A purposes right now, and it has a DTS decoder on board, but it leaves out DTS ES. I guess I just want opinions on this. How many 6.1 DTS versus 6.1 Dolby Digital DVD's exist? Sorry if any of this is uninformed, but I haven't looked too far into the 6.1 processing in the future.

dorokusai · April 2003

I would suggest the Sony STR-DA2ES, fits your price range very nicely and supports all but THX. I may be a little biased, but it is a fact either way. I am not positive but, DTS-ES is not super common as compared to standard DD, 5.1 and its derivitives. It is a great format to hear. Dr Spec I believe has a link for DVD audio formats, perhaps he will see this thread.

dorokusai · April 2003

Oh and the ES line has 5 year warranty. BTW

Sfox7076 · April 2003

I have never been a huge fan of Sony Receivers, but have never really given their Elite series a try. Any opinions on a Marantz 8000? I can get one for $499.

setzer808 · April 2003

I'd go and demo those Yamaha's. I'm a yammie man too. Sweet talk a salesman and see if you can bring in your LSi's and give em a run. My RX-V496 seems fairly similar to your 5240 and I'm also feeling a bit of a need to at least send my mains a bit beefier signal. If the processing and surround amplification is working fine for you, you could always try adding a seperate amp(s) for your mains....I intend to do that when I get some spare cash.

pjdami · April 2003

sfox,

I have a two month old Yamaha RX-V1300 that I don't use anymore. Why not do you ask?

Well, first of all it is a very nice receiver. I would say it is in the middle of the pack. For the $600 I paid for it new, it was not a bad deal at the time.

When you look at the specifications on the RX-V1300, they are totally awesome. 6 X 100 watts /channel at less than 0.04% THD; dynamic power -- 8 ohms 140 watts / 2 ohms 245 watts.
192 DACs all around with two of them for the mains, 4.0 V preout for sub, better than average tuner for a receiver, 100 db + S/N ratio...I could go on and on. I was impressed.

At the time I bought the 1300 I had a CS245i center and RT35i's mains. Personally, when I was younger, I used to like to listen to a lot of treble, so I've always been a Yamaha fan and liked the Yamaha sound. I still own an older Yamaha receiver from like 8 years ago that I keep at my parents house.

I found the Yamaha to be a bit brighter than I would prefer to listen to especially on the trilaminate tweeters of the RT series and center channel. The center channel was the most annoying for me to listen to. I could hear a hisssing sound at the end of words when watching tv or DVDs. There is a way around this though. Yamaha put a built in 5 band equalizer for the center channel and I found that at 10K hz if I toned it down to the max at - 6 db, most of the hissing went away.

It's a good receiver and built like a tank. It weighs like 33 - 34 lbs, has a brushed aluminum volume knob, volume is adjustable in 0.5 db increments, preouts, very good learning remote, etc. I just found it to not match my RT35i's and C245i very well (for my taste at least). I have ceramic tile in my living room which doesn't help the brightness / reverberations that this receiver is capable of producing in its many DSP modes.

This is just my opinion though. I tried to return the receiver last week but was told that after a month I could not return it. They asked why did I want to return it and I told them that I purchased 4 ohm speakers (LSis) and I didn't want to use my Yammer on them. They told me why not "we do it all of the time".
So, last weekend I figured I was going to try and blow this thing up by hooking it up to my LSis and giving it a good run for the money. I switched the ohm selector on the back to 4 ohms and starting playing some music just to the point of where it was getting compressed sounding. The RX-V1300 played for over an hour before I turned it down and sounded pretty decent on the LSi's (I was amazed that it pulled it off). It never got hot either just slightly warm (LSi's were crossed over at 80 hz set to small and using my PSW350 sub). The LSis have a much more "laid back" sound and the RX-V1300 really woke them up. My point here is that if you had more neutral sounding speakers then the Yamaha might be a good match. Now did it sound as good as my Rotel receiver.....no. The Rotel is double the price. Is the Rotel double as good in sound quality??? No again. Maybe 30 - 50% better.

If you like the Yamaha sound and like treble then this receiver is a good choice for you. If you like a warmer sound then this receiver may not be a good choice. I can't comment on the Outlaw because I have never heard one but they seem to have a tremendous following and people that own them love them. Fantastic value and performance but no Prologic II either.

If you can get one demoed in your house with the option of returning it then that is what I would do.

You may also want to consider Pioneer Elite or Denon in this price range because I have read that they have a more neutral sound than the Yamaha.

Hope I didn't confuse you more by writing this. I just wanted to share my experience and let you know what to expect. You might love it and that's great. Everybody hears things a little different.

Good luck,
Paul

p.s. You want to buy my RX-V1300? I'll give you a great deal:) but I'd also want you to be happy with it too.

Sfox7076 · April 2003

I tend to like the brightness of Yamaha's. The Denon 2802 I listened to was kind of dead. How much for the 1300? I live in New York City for shipping purposes. I push it on hard wood floors. Oh, and my surrounds are now f/x 300i's. Got to love liquidation sales. New in bocx for $100.

pjdami · April 2003

Sfox,

Email me at Pauly_70@cox.net and I'll give you the scoop.

P.

BeginnersLuck · April 2003

I love my outlaw 1050. It sounds great, but it lacks pro logic 2. However that was not a concern for me. 2 channel stereo music is simply awesome on this thing. I could not ask for a better receiver in this price range. I believe you can even get a B-stock unit for about $430. You might find a receiver with more goddies (extras) than the 1050, but the they can not match the performance of this highly overlooked reciever. If you are looking for a receiver that delivers beyond just movies, the 1050 is where it's at. If you give the 1050 a try, you will end up keeping it...

Just my opinion...
-BL

VR3 · April 2003

I've had a yamaha. Sounded dry in the mids, and too bright in the highs and boomy in the bass department. I've heard denon too! Sounded like S***!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dry highs, dull mids, BOOMY POS BASS! MY GOD! Pioneer Elite makes REALLY sweet stuff! Smooth highs, controlled mids, and tight bass. The Pioneer Elite VSX-41 can be had for 410 on ebay and is an excellant buy!

freid · April 2003

Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
I've heard denon too! Sounded like S***!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dry highs, dull mids, BOOMY POS BASS! MY GOD!

Which denon model are you referring to?

VR3 · April 2003

Originally posted by freid

Which denon model are you referring to?

I heard the 3802, and the 4802. The 3802, for 1,000 bucks I was not in the least bit impressed. I heard the 4802 and sounded fine. The 3802 was a joke in a box. Couldn't stand it. My Pioneer Elite cost 1/2 of what it costs and sounds a ton better. This is my opinion of course.

freid · April 2003

Thanks,

I am due to get a 3803 in a couple of weeks. Your post got me worried a bit.

VR3 · April 2003

Originally posted by freid
Thanks,

I am due to get a 3803 in a couple of weeks. Your post got me worried a bit.

Mantis has said that model has a video transfer error on something. Ask Mantis. I havn't heard the 3803. Good luck, I expect a review.

shack · April 2003

Freid - I wouldn't worry. The Denon's generally get favorable reviews and are very good quality receivers. I like mine and it goes well with Polk RTi speakers (it works well with the bright Tri-lam tweeters). The 3800 series of receivers get high marks from the HT press for the most part for both sound quality and features.

freid · April 2003

Thanks Vr3 and Shack,
I will certainly post my views on the 3803 when I get it and have it working.

dthomps · April 2003

Originally posted by Vr3MxStyler2k3
I've had a yamaha. Sounded dry in the mids, and too bright in the highs and boomy in the bass department. I've heard denon too! Sounded like S***!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dry highs, dull mids, BOOMY POS BASS! MY GOD! Pioneer Elite makes REALLY sweet stuff! Smooth highs, controlled mids, and tight bass. The Pioneer Elite VSX-41 can be had for 410 on ebay and is an excellant buy!

You do realize that you are generalizing all Yamaha's sound by your experience with one, mid-low end receiver?
Yamaha isnt my absolute foavrite either, but I definitely do not think that they should be dismissed like that. Before you jump all over them again, you should really check out the receivers that he is referring to. If that still doesnt do it for you, then check out the rx-z1.
Denon also makes great receivers. Some people do not like them, but I havent heard anything like your statement that totally bashes everything in every department. Not to discredit you or say that your wrong, but I cant really relate to "BOOMY POS BASS".
Freid- Not to worry, IMO Denon makes excellent receivers, and the 3803 is supposed to be awesome. I havent gotten the chance to hear it, but I have the avr-3801 and really love it. It is similar to the 3803. They really do match well to Polks, just like everyone says. Take it easy guys. Mike

pjdami · April 2003

You do realize that you are generalizing all Yamaha's sound by your experience with one, mid-low end receiver?

I agree also. Mx's receiver was one of the lower end units (HTR-5460?). My RX-V1300 is a middle of the road unit from Yamaha. When you look at the features of the RX-V1300 and the price you pay you get a lot of receiver for your money. Yamaha is a fantastic company and makes great products. I'm still a Yamaha fan myself. I do think that Yamaha is making a honest attempt to improve their products and has done so in the past couple of years. I think they have toned down the brightness of their receivers but its still on the bright side of neutral (my RX-V1300). This provides a very detailed sound to the listener which is exciting to listen to.

The rumor is that the next generation of Yamaha receivers are due out here in the next few weeks. (what my Yamaha dealer told me and another reason why he wouldn't take my RX-V1300 back even at a 20% restocking fee).

pjdami · April 2003

This is an interesting read. Although the reviews are a couple of years old, the receivers here are the predecessors to the receivers in question in this thread (no Outlaw though). I tend to agree with the writer's assessment of the Yamaha and my own personal experience with the RX-V1300.

P.

http://www.graskinhometheatre.bigstep.com/generic.html?pid=18

pjdami · April 2003

Hey sfox,

Here's another option for you. Accessories4less.com is now offering a factory refurbished Marantz 7200 receiver for $499. There are a lot of happy Marantz owners out there. They are also a refurbished Marantz authorized dealer so you would get a warranty.

I'd love for you to buy my Yamaha but at the same time I want to be nonbiased and give you some other options. The 7200 comes with a lot of the latest features too like 192 DACs all the way around.

Here's an excellent review on the 7200 too.

http://www.audiorevolution.com/equip/index.html

P.

MxStYlEpOlKmAn · April 2003

Originally posted by dthomps

You do realize that you are generalizing all Yamaha's sound by your experience with one, mid-low end receiver?
Yamaha isnt my absolute foavrite either, but I definitely do not think that they should be dismissed like that. Before you jump all over them again, you should really check out the receivers that he is referring to. If that still doesnt do it for you, then check out the rx-z1.
Denon also makes great receivers. Some people do not like them, but I havent heard anything like your statement that totally bashes everything in every department. Not to discredit you or say that your wrong, but I cant really relate to "BOOMY POS BASS".
Freid- Not to worry, IMO Denon makes excellent receivers, and the 3803 is supposed to be awesome. I havent gotten the chance to hear it, but I have the avr-3801 and really love it. It is similar to the 3803. They really do match well to Polks, just like everyone says. Take it easy guys. Mike

WHen I said BOOMY POS BASS, I meant it was boomy, distorted, and just sounded...bad. Maybe it was the Klipsch speakers - but I had the total opposite when I switched to a PE receiver that costed 300 less. Really scary that I almost bought the receiver. The bass was just wild, not controlled and a terror to listen to. Sorda like the highs, dried out, and dull. Nothing really interesting. The mids were completely dull, no rich detail.
I have also heard some TOTL yamaha from 10 years ago that my Dad owns. Its 13 watts of clean power per channel and it can drive 500 watt speakers to ear bleeding levels. He does not use the receiver though, he uses it has a pre and uses a HUGE YAMAHA 2 CHANNEL AMP that toally kicks. Yamaha mates well with Klipsch, not with Polk. IMO

criverajr · April 2003

Sfox,

I also have the Yammie 1300 and it great, I have 600i up front, 400i center, and three rc65i in walls in the back, all sounds good, listened to the denon and it sounded a little dull, yes the yammie is a little bright but that fits my taste and the center eq is a great feature. It also has pre-outs for all channels, (please don't kill me!) if you ever wanted to add some external amps and use this as a pre/pro, IMO you should go out get your listen on and let YOUR EARS decide. I think this forum has alot of varying opinions most very good but the ultimate choice should be what sounds good to you.

CRj:D

pjdami · April 2003

CRj,

I think this forum has alot of varying opinions most very good but the ultimate choice should be what sounds good to you.

This is good advice. Ultimately we all have a budget that we have to meet and we want to get the best that we can that fits that budget. We all hear things differently too. What sounds warm and laid back to some sounds dull and muddy to others. Another person's brightness may be the next person's detail.

Like I said above, the RX-V1300 and Yamaha in general are good products. This receiver's brother the HTR-5590 is selling at Best Buy for $799 (minus preouts, detachable power cord, and aluminum volume knob). For $500 - $600, the 1300 is hard to beat when you look at all the features it has.

P.

steve simmons · April 2003

I have a Yamaha DSP-A1 that I used to run with Polk LS-70's and I thought it sounded damn good. I have since sold the Polk's and am now running Boston Acoustic VR-M60's for my L-C-R and VR-MX's for surrounds with a SVS 20-39PC sub. Very good sounding speakers and they match well, imo, with the DSP-A1. There is nothing sonically that makes me want to upgrade but there are some features that have come out in the last 2-3 years that I would like to have such as PLII and ES/EX modes.

I have been a satisfied Yamaha owner for 10 years now- first with the DSP-A1000 and now the A1- but I believe I am going to jump ship on my next purchase. I tend to keep my big ticket equipment for 3-5 years and I want to buy the latest and greatest when I do buy(within reason) so that I don't immediately regret my purchase. I strongly considered the RX-Z1 but ruled it out for a couple of reasons such as it only has 1 rear center and I feel that even though currently there is only 1 rear center used in software that will likely change, fixed 90hz crossover, and that remote (Yamaha remotes do not impress me-even the Pronto clone). The Z1 sounds excellent but it lacks many features that the competition adds although at a higher cost.

I am leaning strongly towards the B&K 507. I was undecided on it until I saw those blue caps...............

VR3 · April 2003

WHAT THE #_)*($_@)(_)#(@_)(_%*_(%#*)(*$@! VR3 MX's for surrounds?????????????????????????????????????????/

steve simmons · April 2003

WTF are you talking about?????? Boston makes a surround to go with the VR-M series- it is the VR-MX. :rolleyes:

Dr. Spec · April 2003

Originally posted by dorokusai
Dr. Spec I believe has a link for DVD audio formats, perhaps he will see this thread.

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?threadid=19190&perpage=30&display=&pagenumber=1

Just look at the first post - it is updated as needed.

Freid: Vr3MxStyler2k3 suffers from a particularly obnoxious and irritating malady: Part 1 - he is 14 years old and has undeveloped hearing. Part 2 - everything he owns kicks ****, and everything else blows.

Rest assured, the rest of the audio world over at Home Theater Forum (there are currently well over 1,000 memebers on-line as I type this) has found the Denon 3803 to be an exceedingly high quality, well built, flexible, versatile, and exceptionally good sounding AVR. The front end processing gear is lifted directly from the flagship 5803 - the "trickle down theory" at work.

Furthermore, the SHARC 32-Bit floating point DSP and the Burr-Brown DACs in the 3803 are identical to those found in the Pioneer Elite VSX-47TX and 49TX. The very same AVR line Mx constantly raves about. Furthermore, the particular mid-level Elite AVR Mx owns does not even have this ultra high end processing gear.

I am not defending Denon because I own it. Many Club Polk members will attest I often support, recommend, and praise equipment I do not own, but highly respect. I am defending Denon because the latest generation of Denon AVRs (the 1803, 2803, 3803, and 5803) have generally garnered nothing but rave reviews and praise from both owners and professional independent audio hi-fi and HT reviewers.

Is the 3803 best AVR in the world? Of course not. Is it one of the most sophisticated and cutting edge AVRs in its price class? Few audio professionals would disagree with that statement. If it has an Archilles Heel, it reportedly has difficulty driving reactive low impedance loads and if you own LSi, I recommend a different AVR, or a separate amp and using the 3803 as a cutting edge pre-pro (something MANY Denon AVR owners have done).

Bottom line - take whatever Mx says with a large grain of salt and don't let his opinion hold one drop of water or affect your purchase decisions for even one microsecond. I'm sure you will be thrilled with the 3803.

Mx, don't even start with me - I'm not in the mood and I won't respond to your rant.

Doc

setzer808 · April 2003

Nice reply Dr. Spec. Now that was a well written/well informed reply. :-) I agree, advice on this, and ANY forum should be taken with a grain of salt. If everyone had the right answers, everyone else would be wrong.

VR3 · April 2003

Just look at the first post - it is updated as needed.

Freid: Vr3MxStyler2k3 suffers from a particularly obnoxious and irritating malady: Part 1 - he is 14 years old and has undeveloped hearing. Part 2 - everything he owns kicks ****, and everything else blows.

:: Doc, obviously you can't read! I look at all your comments and dumb@$$ remarks with a huge grain of salt, if you could read you would know about my audio demoing trips to tweeter, and sound systems. You would also know that in every one of those reviews I said just about every speaker in that room was better than mine except they didn't smash them. The only speakers that smashed mine were the Def Tech's in my opinion. I didn't hear any good subwoofers except the Velo's that day.::

Furthermore, the SHARC 32-Bit floating point DSP and the Burr-Brown DACs in the 3803 are identical to those found in the Pioneer Elite VSX-47TX and 49TX. The very same AVR line Mx constantly raves about. Furthermore, the particular mid-level Elite AVR Mx owns does not even have this ultra high end processing gear.

:: Doc, once again with the stupid remarks, my opinion is clearly my opinion. Did I see any other receiver I wanted to try in there? I turned on the Denon 3802 with high hopes and it came short by a mile. Denon does not get raving reviews all the time, and IMO I didn't like them, my receiver in my opinion sounded better. The reason I used my receiver after the denon was the fact I knew actually how to use/set up the PE. I didn't know jack squat about the Denon. If I could of tinkered with the Denon who knows what my results could of been, for all I know the bass could of been on 10+ and the treble on -10! Who the eff knows! But I suggest in future events that you respect others opinions. My opinion on Yamaha, is few and far, the bright sound to me is hissy, and I found that their Bass is sorda boomy and distorted. However I like Yamaha stuff, as I still have the Yammer receiver and did not sale it.::

Bottom line - take whatever Mx says with a large grain of salt and don't let his opinion hold one drop of water or affect your purchase decisions for even one microsecond. I'm sure you will be thrilled with the 3803.

:: Doc, My god, opinions are opinions. If you can't handle my opinions then don't read them.::

Mx, don't even start with me - I'm not in the mood and I won't respond to your rant.

:: Doc, you won't even reply to my rant? your whole effin post was practically directed to me! What world are you in? Respect opinions man, respect them and respect will set you free! You like your Denon, you like your speakers, you like your subwoofer, you like your rig! I like mine, do we have a problem? Alright!::

To get out of your hair, since you seem I know Jack squat about everything. I will take me an adscence, school is out in 27 days, and 27 days till I get to stay at my Dad's for 2 whole months, and work for thoughs 2 months. Maybe when I come back, I'll give you a review of a SVS subwoofer, and if you think I am gonna say my M&K smashes it, u better think again. When I listen to stuff I listen to it like I don't own it. When I switched from the Denon to the PE, the difference was amazing (in my opinion) to (my ears). Now what you hear and your opinion will differ. Don't even bother replying, because I won't reply back. For all I could care you could rant a entire page of insults. It won't make me reply. So don't waste your finger strength

Hey SteveSimmons! LOL! That is hilarious! I really need to find a sn that some company dosn't use. Subwoofer, JVC shelf systems - MX, thoughs surrounds........VR! Its weird! lol! Ohh well, rock on!

HBombToo · April 2003

Originally posted by Dr. Spec

Furthermore, the SHARC 32-Bit floating point DSP and the Burr-Brown DACs in the 3803 are identical to those found in the Pioneer Elite VSX-47TX and 49TX. The very same AVR line Mx constantly raves about. Furthermore, the particular mid-level Elite AVR Mx owns does not even have this ultra high end processing gear.

Doc

This is the information we need to study and discuss in more detail around here. Opinions are fine, we all have them, but how about some real substance when were discussing the differences from 1 receiver to the next or for that matter 1 amp to another.

Again, Thanks Doc for eluminating the fundamentals.

Regards
HBomb

Dr. Spec · April 2003

Thanks HBomb:

With nearly all of the media these days being digital, the digital signal processing and digital to analog converters have more bearing on the sound quality than nearly any other components in a pre/pro or AVR.

While the Denon 3803/5803 AVRs and the Pioneer Elite VSX-47/49TX AVRs are not identical, they share many of the same identical high quality pre/pro components which have a direct bearing on sound quality. It is no surprise to me that they will sound far more alike than different - and that has been my exact experience with both brands.

We have a local dealer (Rowe Photo) which carries both Denon and Pioneer Elite and I listened to the 3803 compared to the VSX-47 through 8-ohm Klipsch Reference 5's, and they sounded very, VERY similar. Almost to the point where I literally could not tell the difference between the two. And that is exactly what I expected given the fact that they share nearly identical digital processing gear. The Pioneer had a more powerful amp stage, but with the Klipsch being so efficient, this advantage did not manifest itself - both played plenty loud and clean. With less efficient speakers, the Pioneer might get the nod in this department.

My point is - I would be happy to own ANY of the big name AVRs at this price point. They are ALL high quality units, they all sound remarkably good, and it should come down to features, versatility, and price when making your decision. Unless there is an amp/speaker mismatch, if you hear HUGE differences between AVRs at the $1500-$2000 price point, those differences are more imagined than they are real - the human psyche is a very powerful thing.

Doc

Outlaw 1050 v. Yamaha

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