The Good vs. Bad cable debate rages on...

concealer404

I'm a buyer, not a seller, and swapping cables certainly does change the soundstage in my rig.

treitz3

xcapri79 wrote: »

RCA's and power cords affecting the soundstage is quite an amazing statement.

No it is not. It is absolute truth. You would know this if you actually listened. :rolleyes:

treitz3

Damn, I told myself that I would not get involved in this debate but when something that stupid gets posted, self control gets the better of me.

concealer404

xcapri79 wrote: »

I want to make sure we mean the same thing when we refer to soundstage.
I stand by my statement based on the definition below.
Cables just don't have those "magical" properties.

http://stereos.about.com/od/glossary/g/soundstage.htm

Yes, we're aware of what the definition of soundstage is...

hearingimpared

xcapri79 wrote: »

I want to make sure we mean the same thing when we refer to soundstage.
I stand by my statement based on the definition below.
Cables just don't have those "magical" properties.
Now maybe my receiver, amp and LSi's do!

http://stereos.about.com/od/glossary/g/soundstage.htm

I've also have experienced ICs, speaker cable and power cords making a difference in soundstage presentation.

concealer404

I'm not sure you can assign a numeric value to synergy...

hearingimpared

xcapri79 wrote: »

Let's assume there is an improvement, everything costs money and there is a tradeoff in performance per dollar spent. Let's put everything into perspective.

As a percentage of the system cost, for a typical main room audio home system what % of total system is reasonable?
Is there a difference in percentage between low, medium and high-end systems?

1. Source Equipment (SACD, CD, DVD-A, Tape, Turntable, Tuner) %?

2. Pre-Amp/Receiver/Amp %?

3. Speakers/Subwoofers %?

4. Power Conditioner/Bar %?

5. Equipment and Speaker Interconnects %?

I don't think it is quite that cut and dry. Check out my sig for my gear as most of it is in the low-high end to high end. I paid $300 x 5 for my ICs where the MSRP was over $500 per. I paid $400 for my speaker cables (used) where the MSRP was around $1700. Off-hand I can't remember what I paid for my power cords but you get the idea.

madmax

Somehow I just knew power cables would come up eventually.

Everything matters.

madmax

madmax

hearingimpared wrote: »

Check out my sig for my gear as most of it is in the low-high end to high end.

I do not believe you have a sig, sir.

vc69

I have more $$$ worth of cables than my system would merit (to some). I probably won't spend any more on cables until I am happy with my amp/preamp/source selections. I can't really assign percentages, I really don't want to think about the money I have spent this year on audio.:o

Face

xcapri79 wrote: »

I want to make sure we mean the same thing when we refer to soundstage.
I stand by my statement based on the definition below.
Cables just don't have those "magical" properties.
Now maybe my receiver, amp and LSi's do!

http://stereos.about.com/od/glossary/g/soundstage.htm

They can make a big difference in soundstage. Check out MIT's, you'll see exactly what we mean. Even things such as tubes, capacitors, isolation devices, etc...they can all affect the soundstage, sometimes dramatically.

And yes, receivers can affect the soundstage, by degrading it.

megasat16

xcapri79 wrote: »

Let's assume there is an improvement, everything costs money and there is a tradeoff in performance per dollar spent. Let's put everything into perspective.

As a percentage of the system cost, for a typical main room audio home system what % of total system is reasonable?
Is there a difference in percentage between low, medium and high-end systems?

1. Source Equipment (SACD, CD, DVD-A, Tape, Turntable, Tuner) %?

2. Pre-Amp/Receiver/Amp %?

3. Speakers/Subwoofers %?

4. Power Conditioner/Bar %?

5. Equipment and Speaker Interconnects %?

This is a good question but unfortunately, there is no simple or definite answer for it (at least there is no one thing that can fix all others things in the chain).

From my experiences, I found

1. Everything in audio is mainly driven by synergy and not the cost or the brand or the greatness of one gear in the chain.

2. As MadMax puts it - "Everything else matters".

It always does not work if you buy 4 great expensive gears and one cheapo cables and fully expect 4 great ones to cover the shortfalls of the cheapo cables. Likewise, you don't need to buy one very expensive cable and go cheap on all other things in the chain.

It's about Balance approach! It's about Trial and Errors! It's about Synergy! It's the enjoyment of experimenting all different gears yourself! It's about finding the answers with an open mind (no offense intended).

There is no true "One Fix All" approach in this so putting numbers and percentage in this does not always matter.

hearingimpared

madmax wrote: »

I do not believe you have a sig, sir.

Yes I do Chuck. Scroll up to post #99.

concealer404

xcapri79 wrote: »

Actually that was precisely what I was trying to arrive at!
That is why the percentages, because it is the synergy of the system that we need to consider.
For synergy to work - there has to be balance, hence the percentages.

Alright, i'll bite. Here's mine:

Source: 7%
Preamp/amp: 53%
Speakers: 14%
Power conditioner: 13%
cables and wire: 14%

I rounded, so i happen to have a 101% system, because it's just that awesome.

By the way, i don't expect anyone else to have anywhere near those figures.

bigaudiofanatic

xcapri79 wrote: »

RCA's and power cords affecting the soundstage is quite an amazing statement.
If you say "noise" yes, I found that with RCA and power cords, but you need not get too expensive or exotic.
"Improving the soundstage" is way too incredible.
That is pure "marketing talk" from someone trying to sell something and separate you from your money.

A powercord that has sufficient current capacity for the maximum power being consumed with twisting and shielding to reduce noise will provide the required results. A 6ft power cord should not cost $100's of dollars.

People can believe whatever they want to believe. We see that everyday.
There's my cowpie!

I sort of have to agree with you but to an extent. I mean you can upgrade your power cord up to a point where it will just not matter. Also a bigger wire on the outside will not affect the power wire on the inside of the receiver. Same applies to speaker wire and rca wires.

kawizx9r

If you hear a difference, good on you! Keep doing what you can to improve the SQ of your system and be happy with it.

If you can't hear a difference, good on you as well. You can spend that $ elsewhere.

Can we just agree to disagree?

In my experience, everything (except power cords ONLY because I never upgraded one) has made a difference in terms of sound quality. Everything from IC's, power conditioners, capacitors upgraded to higher quality ones, positioning, tubes, speaker cables and more! And yes all of those I've listed has made a difference in my setup. I like to keep my wife involved and even she can hear the difference, I'll just tell her to sit down in the sweet spot and ask her for an opinion without ever telling her what I did.

Face

A lot of the "can nots" here are from those who "have not".

bigaudiofanatic

kawizx9r wrote: »

If you hear a difference, good on you! Keep doing what you can to improve the SQ of your system and be happy with it.

If you can't hear a difference, good on you as well. You can spend that $ elsewhere.

Can we just agree to disagree?

In my experience, everything (except power cords ONLY because I never upgraded one) has made a difference in terms of sound quality. Everything from IC's, power conditioners, capacitors upgraded to higher quality ones, positioning, tubes, speaker cables and more! And yes all of those I've listed has made a difference in my setup. I like to keep my wife involved and even she can hear the difference, I'll just tell her to sit down in the sweet spot and ask her for an opinion without ever telling her what I did.

She probably just says ya I can hear a difference just to make you happy.

hearingimpared

kawizx9r wrote: »

If you hear a difference, good on you! Keep doing what you can to improve the SQ of your system and be happy with it.

If you can't hear a difference, good on you as well. You can spend that $ elsewhere.

Can we just agree to disagree?

In my experience, everything (except power cords ONLY because I never upgraded one) has made a difference in terms of sound quality. Everything from IC's, power conditioners, capacitors upgraded to higher quality ones, positioning, tubes, speaker cables and more! And yes all of those I've listed has made a difference in my setup. I like to keep my wife involved and even she can hear the difference, I'll just tell her to sit down in the sweet spot and ask her for an opinion without ever telling her what I did.

bigaudiofanatic wrote: »

She probably just says ya I can hear a difference just to make you happy.

Nah, I do the same thing with my wife and she tells me the truth. When I first did the upgrade to my 1.2TL xovers and hadn't burned the caps and resistors in yet, I let her take a listen and she not so nicely said, "YOU EFFED UP YOUR SPEAKERS." That all changed after they burned in however.

kawizx9r

bigaudiofanatic wrote: »

She probably just says ya I can hear a difference just to make you happy.

LOL

I'll always ask her specifically what difference she thinks she's heard.

She did go into detail when I went from Signal Cable I's to Audioquest Sidewinders, and when I switched out some cheap russian tubes out for a pair of RCA clear tops. All other differences weren't as significant, but we both did hear differences.

hearingimpared

Tubes are extremely addictive.

kawizx9r

hearingimpared wrote: »

Tubes are extremely addictive.

+1

My preamp is entry-level and even that got me hooked on tubes!

hearingimpared

kawizx9r wrote: »

+1

My preamp is entry-level and even that got me hooked on tubes!

Have you done any tube rolling yet? That is where the addiction gets out of control.

kawizx9r

hearingimpared wrote: »

Have you done any tube rolling yet? That is where the addiction gets out of control.

When I had the aric audio, rolled through baldwin and some mullard 12au7's on it. Got rid of that and got the import tubed pre in my sig and have already bought some philips in place of the 12ax7's and rca clear top side getters for the 12au7 slots. Rectifier tube is a cheap chinese tube, not sure if it'd make a difference replacing that or not.

treitz3

xcapri79 wrote: »

Yes tubes make a huge difference, now we are talking.

That's funny. I thought we were talking about how an interconnect can not possibly make a change in the sound stage as you mentioned before.

F1nut

Face wrote: »

A lot of the "can nots" here are from those who "have not".

Bingo! We have a winner.

hearingimpared

Jess, there are red XXXXXXs in your sig where the "Pres. of Club Polk" used to be!?!?

treitz3

xcapri79 wrote: »

It was a compare and contrast thing and tubes are an example of what does make a difference. We are also talking about synergy, balance and putting things into perspective.

Never mind. This is a great example of why I do not engage in this type of discussion. It's like I'm talking to a brick wall.

"Perspective"...........hmmmm, look it up.

Think I'll slide out now..........

treitz3

Get your ears checked.

inspiredsports

Some can't (or simply won't) bring themselves to spend what seems to them to be exhorbitant amounts of money on IC's, Speaker Cables and Power Cables.

They will argue to the death that cables do not matter, either because they can't (or won't) introduce these items into their systems.

My Thanksgiving Wish is that we could get all of those who have not experienced the benefits of great cables into a room with a synergistically cabled Polk system and just stop these stupid threads.

No matter how intelligently the discussions start, thread after thread after thread, it always breaks down with a select few (who seem to have little experience with cable) taking it to the mat.