seperates or a receiver.......which one and why?

mantis

I know this is old and I don't even now why I'm starting this thead.Troy won't allow this to die for whatever his reasons are,sounds like to me he thinks I'm dense or just miss the boat totally.
Ok got that out of the way .......
Which one do you buy and why???

The middle of the road people please jump in here with adding amps to a receiver.Rotel people can be excluded because in oreder to reply the DTS es or Surround EX DVD's you need to buy the surround back channl amps as they are not included in your receiver,why???Someone Call Rotel and get a new version why.I got one and I wasn't happy with the answer or answers......there where many.

I'm not passing judgement on anyone for constructing there system anyway they feel is right to them.
I only ask if you don't like the receiver you boughts sound,power or whatever,why not go with a matching preamp to go with your new found love power amps......Help me understand this as I have failed in the past with my adventure down this very path.......I't back I know....but humor me please.

rs159

Receivers get you the most bang for the buck in lower price ranges. If you get into the right price range seperates will sound as good as and probably better than a comparable receiver. At retardedly high price ranges seperates will probably be your only option. A receiver with a seperate amp for *some* of the channels, letting the receiver put more power into channels not powered by the amp, gets you the best of both worlds IMO.

HBombToo

I have the h/k 520 and I'm middle of the road on it. It can do matrix 7.1, has all the processors I care to have for HT so why spend the money. I was not satisfied with the 75 W/chn so I purchased an amp. It increased the performance of my system to a level never would I have imagined. Then I began taking a harder look at my 2 channel and bought an external DAC which I use for Direct TV 2 channel or my Cal Labs CL-20 player which then becomes a Transport only. I can switch between the DAC in my Cal or outboard DAC so I have much flexibility there. This tweek brought another enhancement as far as Stereo imaging on the digital side that I am very pleased with. Then I upgraded my Subwoofers to the SV line which has increased my listening experience beyond belief. Let me tell you that IMO the Subs are the best purchase I could have ever made but my original purchase of my cheap little h/k is still there. Now 1 might say after all those purchases I could have just bought a 4000 dollar receiver.... let me tell you by not and by following the path that I have a system that is very respectible even to the audiophile community. Amplifiers seperated from the DACS and speakers with more power than they can handle with NO Noise so my retort question is: Should I upgrade my h/k or my RTi line??? That is a big question and my thought is I don't know and I'll probably leave well enough alone and move into Vinal.

Subs, DAC, CD Transport, Outlaw Amp come in at around 5K but new would have ran me into an additional 2.3K so there is quite a savings. I could not imagine 1 component, a 3.5K AVR outclassing my system but if you throw the subs in I have still saved the 2.3K for other purchases so thats not too bad for being a rookie.

But again if I purchase a new 3.5K receiver that is my decision and if justified then its nobodys business. Its all about personal preference.

HBomb

TroyD

There is nothing wrong with a receiver. IMO opinion, the can and do sound great, come in lots of shapes and sizes and have can come with as many bells, whistles, knobs, buzzers etc as you want.

Separates, more expensive and the more bells and whistles you want, gets even pricier. Greater flexibility and gives you more options.

Now, if you want to EXPERIMENT with separates, even (and I recommend this) if your amp has preouts, use them. That's what they are there for. Using the receiver as a preamp, while not as good as a true separate preamp is a great way to add some add'l power to your system. I have added Carver amps to my L,C,R channels and am deleriously happy with the results. The Carver amps match quite well. The power consumption issue is, IMO, less of an issue than people make of it, as long as you are operating within the limits of the amps (not clipping) it's a fairly moot point. I don't care the rhyme or reason, if you are adding a 2 channel amp to the back channels of a receiver that doesn't have them or adding a 2 channel amp to the main preouts: YOU HAVE THE SAME AMOUNT OF AMP MISMATCH, this is the point I'm trying to make to Dan. I think he is trying to have his cake and eat it to. In either scenario, you've got the same chance of mismatching the amps. As I've said (and I think the manufactuers validate this by the mere presence of the preouts) I don't think it's that big of an issue.

Lastly, as far as the preout function being the weak link or whatever. Maybe, maybe not. But if your receiver is a crappy preamp for a power amp then why isn't it crappy for the internal amps? Preouts, as far as I know, only bypass the internal amps. So, IMO, if it's a poor preamp, it's a preamp. Of course we can get into the whole matching thing again and to a certain extent, I'll buy that argument but you see my general point.

BDT

goingganzo

i am in the debateing thing too wheather to add a good 7 channel amp or maybe save up a little longer and get a projector.but the projector i will have some problems. inorder to go big i have to get the screen that i can put my speakers behind. i would go at least 120 or more.

Ceruleance

gonzo, get the projector, enough said.

I prefer seperates. Mainly:
We all know about the upgrade bug, or else we wouldnt be in here, we'd be listening to the systems we already have. You want to upgrade a new receiver you need to buy a new receiver, and that costs. Not to mention, try selling your super top of the line was 2000 dollars new dolby PRO LOGIC receiver on the used market, maybe 10 years after you got it, what do you get for it, 2-300 dollars? If you do your research and get in on an amp model, you could use it for years and years and still get most of your money back, Im pretty sure the carver M-1.0t was 650 new 15 years ago, and it still goes for 200-450 on the used market. Dedicated preamps can be upgraded if you go that high in price, and if you dont, then just sell it and buy a new one for the next 5 years.

By the way, this doesnt even mention how easy it is to find a place in the home/bedroom/office, wherever, to throw an extra stereo amp. not so much so for a receiver.

and for the crowd using receivers as a preamp, basically you are just cheating yourselves, if you dont use the amps in the receiver, why pay for them, why not spend the same amount on a higher quality dedicated? and even if you biamp using preamp outs and built in amps, you'd probably be happier saving to buy better outboard amps. IMO preamp outs are a baby step to seperates, the try before you buy, it allows you to accumulate outboard amps over time that you can integrate into your system, and then finally phase out the receiver.

On the lookout for an H/K Signature 2.0 with or without the DTS chip ( I can get it myself )

If anyone wants my JVC RX-8010VBK, make an offer

gidrah

Separates for stereo and receiver for theater. I'm more critical about my music than I am about my movies. I'll look into separates for theater after I buy a DVD-A/SACD player. Even then it'll only be to improve the music. The theater upgrades will be an added bonus.

F1nut

Don't forget a integrated amp as a excellent choice. Much better than any receiver and can be much better than alot of seperates.

TroyD

I think this could turn out to be a pretty good thread (even if I'm an ****, right Dan?)

Pretty cogent points made.....

To address Cerrulance...ok, my reply is that most folks get into HT and so forth with a receiver. Adding amps incrementally (for those of us with a limited budget) is a common sense thing, IMO. Why not just buy a pre/pro? Well, first of all, they are expensive and fairly rare.

Gidrah echoes my sentiments exactly. HT and music are, IMO, two different things. In an HT environement there is too much sensory input to be able to REALLY listen critically therefore the threshold for acceptability is much lower, IMO. I think this would explain why quality of the internal parts of a receiver are less than separate components.

F1 makes a VERY good point. Why aren't there more HT integrated amps (no tuner) out there?

BDT

mantis

TroyD,

I think this could turn out to be a pretty good thread (even if I'm an ****, right Dan?)

You may or may not be,but your delivery sometimes makes you out to be.Yes I think this can be a cool thead.



Ceruleance,
You on the track of how I feel.You know I see the upgrade path,when it's time to move out of a receiver,maybe it's time to look into seperates that don't cost more then a given budget allows.There are a good group of I'll cam em low end seperates out there.Adcom,Rotel NAD,Outlaw all make a very good product and don't cost all that much.

F1nut,

Don't forget a integrated amp as a excellent choice. Much better than any receiver and can be much better than alot of seperates.

I think this would be the step inbetween a receiver and full bown seperates.Actually there are receivers on the market thats are in Intergraded grade level but still offer Tuners(which I feel needs to get out).Yamaha made the DSP1,this was a step in the right direction,no Multiroom and no tuner.
I fit into that class as well.I want the performance of seperates but don't want to spend over 6 grand or more to get it(In just a pre and amp alone).With my extensive recearch,I have found high quality receivers on the market that can come extremely close to performing as good as the lower end seperates do.Some are even constructed like Intergraded preamps and amps.High quality parts inside.
Rotel is one of those companies who built there receivers with part of equal quality of there seperates.So does B&K.B&K actually drops the entire reference series preamp into there receiver.It is the same exact one.The amp section is also seperate quality as they use st level internal amps.I have been to there factory and saw the avr307 built by hand from the ground up.B&K is low volume and build everything by hand.They start with a blank computer grade circuit board and make an entire receiver out of it.When the preamps are built,they are all built together,reference series and avr.I was in shock to see this go.I was also suprised to find every single circuit hand built.The only think they use machines for is to put the hot glue on the back.All people building them.At the factory I was watching the girls screw on the binding posts to the chasis,nd installing the feet.I wantedto get in there and help.It looked fun and they seemed to like there job(I'll assume B&K take good care of there employees).
The amp section goes in and all the transformers and caps are all put in,man they are of high quality and really big.The avr307 has 4 huge caps for ultimate power.They where also stacked on output devices.
Once the amp section is complete,the preamp goes in on top.Everything is connected with quick connector type connections.Seperates in one box basically.Whats cool with this design,you can unplug the surroundback channels and plug in the multiroom preouts internally.They provide youwith a quick connector to connect to the internal amps for powered multiroom.Now thats badass.Japanese reciever allow you to do this VIA software.It's easier but japanese soder all there amps right to the preamp.I'm assuming this is what or at least one of the things that seperate B&K from you tipical receiver.
When you look inside the B&K avr307 or the new avr507,there isn't any room left.They use all the real estate inside.Not to mention as said before,they place the entire preamp right on top of the amp section,they are seperate.
The way I see it,and the way B&K talks about there receivers is they are basically Intergraded.They choose to included the tuner,I asked about the tuner and they have been thinking of removing it from the receivers and preamps for sometime.And then offer one seperately.B&K already amde the choice not to include the Phono preamp section.B&K owners and there engineers all feel having the phono preamp inside creates to much noise and they can offer a high quality outboard.They also do this with there RF demodulator,it's not included inside the receiver.It's sold seperate.These 2 things I feel also seperate B&K from the tipical receiver.So what F1nut brought up here can be valid Via owning a B&K receiver.At least as close as your going to get.
You know what?Even though the B&Kavr307 and avr507 has the ref30/50 built in,which IS a preamp,I would still not use it as a preamp.When I grow out of mine,I will buy seperates then,not add amps to it.This is my choice and mine alone.This doesn't mean in no way if you plan on using a receiver or even one of this caliber thats it's the wrong choice.Thats totally up to you.Troy and I have been debating this topic for years.I think we can come to some kind of truce with this statesment.I really want all the negitive Moroon,wannabe commentsto stay in the past.I wanna grow out of that thinking and respect anyone who needs or wants to do this.I will still have an opnion against it,but will offer my best advice to accompish this.
Rotels receiver Don't have the internal amps to power surroundback as we all know.You HAVE to add the nessary amps to get the job done.As bad as it sounds to Troy or 2 faced,whatever you wanna call it,this is as close as I will ever get to using external amps from a receiver's preamp.Multiroom excluded as multiroom has no effect on the main zone.I have absolutely no problem with multiroom........which has brought up an extremely cool **** Idea.

Advice for those users who want high quality 2 channel music and home theater synergy.If you already own a high quality receiver and it has multiroom,why not usethis in the same room to pull off 2 channel?The multiroom section of a Home Theater receiver is all analog.You can bu high quality outboard DAC's,really high quality interconnects and use your killer main speakers.I would buy a second matching pair of bookshelves for the theater and use your floorstandings for music........polkatese has planted this Idea(in his round about way)to inspire me to even pull this off.Check out what I'm gonna give a try,I think even Troy and myself might agree with this Idea....check it out.......
Fro Audio in my new theater,I'm going to use Lsi all around and B&K to power it.Now the Multiroom section of the B&K isn't going to be used for Multiroom.I will have a dedicated full house system for that duty(look at B&K's CT610 if your intrested,one piece I'm considering as well as the Niles and Elan)Now what I plan on testing before I actually do it is using the Lsi7's hung on the wall to the sides of my screen (Stewart Firehawk 110 inch)and also hanging the Lsi center underneath it.Then moving the Lsi15's to the office(or even in the theaterroom)for 2 channel music.This is an intreguing Idea.B&K makes mono blocks in the ref200.1 or I could buy the mighty Ref200.2.If I listen to 2 channel music in the theater without the Lsi15's,I will Have a REL Storm III to play all the bottom end,which in my opnion can't be beat for musical playback under 2 grand.REL makes musical sub'sfirst,Home Theater force second.
So Troy what do you think about my Idea(I gotta give the credit to polkates,he inspired me to do so)?Do you think this could be my personal gap between?I mean I could easily buy the PT5 2 channel preamp from B&K at anytime,it's not even expensive.It goes for like 698.99.But with the Multiroom preamp built inside the B&K avr307,I wouldn't need to buy the preamp right away and put that cash towards all my other upgrades(which will kill me dead).

mantis

For TroyD only post..........(and anyone else wanting to know where I stand on this topic)
SO with all that mad being said allow me to voice exactly where I stand on this topic with you,and hopefully you can respect it.

1)RECEIVERS WITH EXTERNAL AMPS.

A) Adding a 2 channel power amp to a home theater reciever of a different brand,power, in my opnion ruins the home theater experience.It will heighten(if you like the sound of the power amp better then the internal amps) your 2 channel music enjoyment.

I feel that adding a 5 or 7 channel amp/s would be more Ideal,like what Ron-P did with his Marantz and Adcom setup.He uses all Adcom of the same exact all the way around.He even went for max performance and Bi amped his front 3,stress front 3.His theater won't have tonal shifts.If he would have bought a Rotel amp to run his mains and Adcom to run the center and rears,this would cause a tonal shift in the front 3 as well as from front to back.If your going to use different amps,then do it from front to back,not across the front 3.Reason,it's easier to hear the difference across the front then it is from front to rear(unless you have a more trained ear like myself, then it doesn't matter where the change allies)Highest performance will be what Ron-P did.

C) What Rotel does with there receivers by not adding the nessary internal amps to reply todays formats and having the processing power forces you to buy an external amp.I don't agree with Rotel but I say if your going to buy an external amp,try your best to match the internal amps as close as humanly possible.Rotel claims there rb1050 will match the rsx1055,so thats what I would do if I owned the rsx1055.I wouldn't however go buy a Adcom amp to use for surroundback.
What I believe You miss Troy is that there is an exception to any rule even if it falls under the Mantis Theory.As good as Rotel is,I would do it.I almost did in the rsx1065,which is the rsx1055's big brother and flagship Rotel Home Theater Reciever.

D) My new Idea with using the Multiroom preamp for 2 channel of a Home Theater/multiroom reciever such as my B&K avr307.I'm gonna give this a run.I will play with my surroundback speakers(Lsi7's) as mains ran in small.As good as these speakers are,I feel I will have positive results.Then using B&K's flagship power amps to power the Lsi15's for 2 channel enjoyment.Adding these amps to the multiroom preamp,which will match as they are of the same brand.Also the point that it will have no effect on the main Zone,which is the home theater.This is where I have the problem with adding amps to a reciever.Adding amps to the multiroom preouts,which I do for a living as well as for myself,I think is totally fine.Now Max performance still will yield in buying the PT5 B&K preamp,but with the money I will save upfront in my upgrading process,I think this is an Intelligent Idea.

A WORD(OR 2) TO TROYD........

So Troy,what do you think?This is my truce post between you and I.I completely understand why people do what they do with money restrictions,we all would love to own brands like Krell and Dynaudio(my choices anyway)but hey this is a stepinthe right direction right?You thoughts needed bud.

TroyD

You may or may not be,but your delivery sometimes makes you out to be.Yes I think this can be a cool thead.

Pot? Kettle? Black? Hello? Where did I insult you Dan? Just because I don't agree with you and think your logic is faulty. Where did I insult you?

FACT: If you have a tuner, preamp, amp in the same chassis sharing the same power source(that's important), it's a receiver. Period, end of discussion. Some are better than others but it's still a receiver. Mind you not that it's a bad thing. There are a lot of receivers out there that have EXCELLENT sound.

think we can come to some kind of truce with this statesment.I really want all the negitive Moroon,wannabe commentsto stay in the past.I wanna grow out of that thinking and respect anyone who needs or wants to do this

Truce? You, Dan-o, are the one that made all of those statements. How about instead of a truce, an APOLOGY to those folks who disagreed with a pro and used their receiver in a way that the manufacturer intended and were insulted. You wanna 'grow out of that thinking'? How about an apology. It would seem that you are the only one who seemed to have a problem with it.

As for what you want to do with your rig, who am I to disagree? Personally, if it floats YOUR boat it really doesn't make a rats behind what I or anyone else thinks. See, I don't think you need the approval of others to enjoy this hobby. Personally, rather than having a whole house rig or whatever, I like having separate rigs in each room. Hell, I enjoy my old Pioneer CS-88 / Marantz 2215 rig as much as my mancave rig. It's all about enjoyment. I think people get WAY to wrapped around the axle about this stuff.

mantis

OK,
I opologize to all that got offended by my comments stated above(morron wannabe etc)but that doesn't change how I feel about this topic.I make it clear above where I stand.
TroyD,

Pot? Kettle? Black? Hello? Where did I insult you Dan? Just because I don't agree with you and think your logic is faulty. Where did I insult you?

The way you reply to my statements,it's like your trying your best to make me look 2 faced or something.The Whole Rotel thing is different then just adding different brand amps to any home theater receiver.In my opnion.All I ask is repect for my opnion,Pro,hobbiest or whatever you wanna call me......mantis or Dan is just fine.I think you and I step over the line with each other due to our past.I wann get past all that once and for all.Address anything that come up in the future when it happens....

I don't think you need the approval of others to enjoy this hobby.

I agree with that comment but this is a forum where we all share Ideas and would like to hear what others think about them.My Idea doesn't need anyones approval but my own.And I will conduct my own trial runs to find out if this is what I wanna do or not.I think thats where many people fall out.They take advise from others without any input of there own.I find this to be lazy,or just afraid to research the unknown.....I don't really know whatto think as I find myself in different thinking/thougth process.Different strokes and all that I guess.....Lazy might be way off base.....or right on.I don't know.

RuSsMaN

Hey guys, I found some playdoh fun-factory 'guides' yesterday.

Anyway, I crammed one up against my cornhole and made some star shaped doodie. Neat huh? I think I may try to make some spaghetti doodie today!

wangotango68

hay troy when you coming back to the u.s.? just curious.:)


scott:cool:

TroyD

I dunno, man, I dunno. I'm hoping for sometime in the July timeframe.

BDT

HBombToo

Originally posted by Ceruleance


and for the crowd using receivers as a preamp, basically you are just cheating yourselves, if you dont use the amps in the receiver, why pay for them, why not spend the same amount on a higher quality dedicated? and even if you biamp using preamp outs and built in amps, you'd probably be happier saving to buy better outboard amps.

How am I cheating myself? my h/k was the first unit I bought to step into HT. so let me ask a question: would it be better for me to biamp my surround RT55i with 2 h/k internal 75 W/Chn amps or power normally with my Outlaw at 200 Watts per?

so I have 5 h/k 75 Watt amps not in service but could be used as a backup in case of a failure in my seperate amp. Adds operational diversity to my settup.

HBomb

Ceruleance

ha, I figured someone would get annoyed with that comment. To tell you the truth, If i had preouts on my receiver, I would probably be doing the same thing you are. But are the extra back up amps in your H/K worth it, just collecting dust waiting for something else to go wrong? I mean, if you could magically seperate the amp and preamp section, would you really keep the Amps?

Think about it this way, if you had an outboard H/K 75 x 5 amp and your outlaw, would you really just throw the H/K somewhere in the back of your theatre just in case? I'd bet you'd sell it, or use it somewhere else, but you cant cause your receiver limits that.

Bottom line, receiver used as a preamp is a much better alternative than just using using the included amps, but seperates are even better, because the flexibility, and you arent paying for anything you aren't using ('backup' amps notwithstanding)

The problem is the giant leap from a receiver to seperates. When I bought my 300 dollar JVC I certainly wasnt contemplating 3 amps and a preamp as an alternative.

so in summary: Preouts are a good thing, they add flexibility to a system. But in the end, it seems like its still a step on the upgrade path. Final Scenario: You have all your speakers powered by outboard amps, and you are using a receiver as your preamp, not using the built in amps. Then your receiver bites the dust and you need a replacement. Do you buy a new receiver, or do you buy a seperate preamp? Unless you really can't afford anything, its the preamp, everytime

HBombToo

Originally posted by Ceruleance
ha, I figured someone would get annoyed with that comment.

No way can the HBomb be annoyed or offended. I was just throwing my thoughts into the mix. That said, you nailed it... if the h/k **** the bed then I can buy a pre/pro and have the all mighty WAF.

Hbombed

TroyD

Ed Zachary

HBombToo

Originally posted by TroyD
Ed Zachary

but **** bro its about time ta crash is it not???? crazy shifts i'll bet!

HBomb

TroyD

we are 11 hrs ahead and I'm here about 18 hrs a day.....

BDT

HBombToo

my days are normal because no capital expenditures regarding growth so I'm enjoying... I have set more than 1000 towers in our country and its time for a breather. When you get back its called COMP Time my friend. You just make sure you get back.

Bombed

TroyD

Will do amigo, will do....

I've got it pretty easy compared to a lot of other guys....

BDT

HBombToo

Bullets may not be flying overhead but you have a responsibility beyond the call. Do what you do well and your efforts will be responsible for our accomplishments.

My prayers are for ALL of your return to the World.

H

wallstreet

Is this is a trick question? The only reason not to buy separates is cost.

Ceruleance

good work wallstreet, good work

shack

Originally posted by wallstreet
Is this is a trick question? The only reason not to buy separates is cost.

I totally disagree with this statement. While I agree that separates may sound better in many instances and certainly give you more flexibility to design your system...they are not the answer for everyone. If I can get the sound quality, build quality, power, features In one box I will go that way most of the time. I don't want a pre-amp, amp(s), tuner, DAC, Phono preamp plus interconnects between all of the above in my rack. As with anything it is a matter of degrees and diminishing returns for me. Are separates going to sound that much better that a comparable receiver?...is it going to be worth the effort, time, space to make it work?...for some the answer is yes but for me probably not. The closest I may every come to separates is something like the Outlaw pre-pro/amp combo. Two boxes...Tops! And the only reason I would consider that is because they are actually cheaper than a similarly optioned/powered receiver.

As I have stated in other threads...this hobby is not the same for all. To some it is the ablsoulte best sound, best gear, etc...and will do whatever it takes to that end. To other's it is the best compromise for what they want both in the way of sound and convienience. I personally think something like the Linn Classik (CD/receiver) is an excellent idea. A quality, high current amp, pre, tuner, and CD player in one box. I am willing to give up a little in the way of sound (but not much) for the convienience of a receiver...but you know...in reality...I think you can get the convienience and functionality of a receiver and give up very little in sound. JMO

wallstreet

Cost is a part of just about everyone's decision making process. And there is a point of diminishing returns for sound quality verus dollars spent. That point is different for each person. What some people think sounds great, I think sounds horrible and vice-versa. I think it is almost universally accepted that a top notch separates system will outperform a top notch integrated system. So whether you go separates or not goes back to your sound quality/price point. The original question was "Which one do you buy and why?". If you take the cost out of the equation, I'm all over 7 mono Krell amps with an Anthem pre-pro. Is there any chance in hell that I'll ever spend that kind of money on audio reproduction equipment? Not unless I hit the lottery.

Frak601

okay, I am going to throw myself to the wolves on this one, but being a newbie to HT, what else would you expect???haha......with all the contemplating of receiver vs. seperates........I still like the av receiver idea for my new theater room....I am considering a Marantz SR7001(110W X 7)..........if I go this way instead of seperates, would anyone still agree that adding something like an outalw 7 multichannel amp to the marantz preouts would make the system sound better, or would the difference in performance not outweigh the costs? Also, if you use the receiver as a pre.....does all the processing,sound fields and switching like HDMI still come through the receiver, it just doesn't use its built in amplifier??? Thanks for any help and all opinions are appreciated!!

Midnite Mick

Someone's been doing some searching.

Your first question is kind of subjective but if you were planning on running a 7 channel system an amp may be worthy to help out. I think it would only be worth getting a 3 channel for the front end and let the receiver handle the other channels.

In response to your second question an amp will not effect any of the digital processes of the receiver. It will just help out by supplying more power.

Mike