SACD - why it failed commercially, from an insider's perspective

reeltrouble1

alas, my bad.........the straycats is a DVD-A, before I send Danny into a fury.

carrry on.

RT1

Danny Tse

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

Didn't mO-Fi just release The Band stuff????

If your glass is half empty get a smaller glass.

MoFi has announced 2 other SACD titles from The Band. Also, MoFi has announced 2 additional SACD titles from The Doobie Brothers.

Meanwhile, Analogue Productions has announced 2 Elvis SACD titles and a new Sam Cooke SACD. In additional to the Nat "King" Cole SACDs.

RT1 - you got the David Elias SACD, right?

The way I see it, SACD hit its commercial peak about 5 years ago when both Sony and Universal were releasing pop/rock/country titles. Both Sony and Universal promoted SACD giveaway samplers within Rolling Stone magazine and through full page ads in magazines like Sound and Vision, respectively. However, by that time, the digital download steam train has pretty much destroyed all hopes of SACD achieving mainstream success. Even the audiophile press was talking of the demise of the CD. SACD was just the wrong product at the wrong time. If SACD was to have been introduced back in the early 90s... I'd imagine companies like Sony and Universal have more interest, right now, in selling digital downloads than even CDs. Still, Warner Bros. Music, a previous proponent of DVD-A, licensing its music to Mofi is a good sign for SACD. Same with Sony licensing Elvis' music for SACD (Sony in Asia has never given up hope on SACD and is still issuing new titles). This give me hopes of getting Van Halen and more Springsteen on SACD.

Still, more than 500 new SACD titles each year is not so bad.

vc69

I agree 100% Danny. I actually had an SACD capable player by 2000 but wasn't into the hobby enough to realize I was missing all of the buying opportunities. The stuff I want these days is hard to find. I won't buy a title just because it is an SACD release. I would be more interested in replacing favorites than adding new stuff.

Danny Tse

vc69 wrote: »

I won't buy a title just because it is an SACD release. I would be more interested in replacing favorites than adding new stuff.

I do that too but I have also expanded my music horizons because of SACD. I'd never buy a Tony Bennett title if not for SACD getting me hooked (Got Tony's "Playing With My Friends" SACD yesterday at Fry's for $15.00)

reeltrouble1

yes Danny I got it and I owe you a huge one, I played the disc for several nights straight away, the SQ is quite phenomonal and Elias is a much happier fellow than AK, although the music moves from major (more happy sounding) and minor keys where you get a bit of the more haunting minor colored ballads, the lyrics are at times quite interesting, I would suspect dependant in meaning to each listener and their life experience, as an example "winter wheat waits for no one" likely means different things to each person. Elias is more of a Folk Rock writer than Krause. I suppose Elias and the Dave Alvin sacd mofi disc BlackJack David draw from similiar view points.

I played this at the Fest and recall a comment of how this disc was music for the sake of music.

Thanks again Danny and this one remains in heavy rotation

RT1

pitdogg2

Keiko wrote: »

I recall reading something awhile back that Super Audio was the original intent for CD to begin with. Not sure if this is true or not, but if SACD was advertised and marketed properly, I think it had potential. It still can be, as I believe there is a market for hi-rez audio. Sure, I enjoy HT as much as the next person, but my passion has always been the music. Always will be.

I jumped on the SACD/DVD-Audio band wagon with two Denon universal players 2900 and 3910 they rock. I have some disc's that i NEVER had on any media and must say that the Elton John's IMOH were the best they really took their time to put the instruments in the right locations and then there are some that just suck. Sony has such a HUGE catalog I never ever knew why they didn't put more mainstream rock out as a hybrid CD/SACD. But IMHO just how many incarnations of classical music that's 75yo or older do you need. I did read in one of my many audio mag's that they will make Blu-ray multichannel recordings soon to take place of the SACD but then again Sony did tell us that they would have 500 new release's of SACD by the end of the year several years back only to make a statement 4-5 mo. later saying they were going to abandon it completely.

I will state that I'm hooked on HI-REZ multi channel music and hope that Denon and others continue to make some sort of universal player that also will play BR that is more affordable than the 5000.00 player they are selling now

vc69

pitdogg2 wrote: »

I will state that I'm hooked on HI-REZ multi channel music and hope that Denon and others continue to make some sort of universal player that also will play BR that is more affordable than the 5000.00 player they are selling now

Oppo BDP-83 for $500 / SE (analog upgrades) $800

I love mine.

vc69

Ooops... The SE is actually $900 ^^^^

Danny Tse

For those who ponders who could have been....

Second phase of multi-channel hybrid SACD rollout from Elton John (see bottom of article)

louhamilton

I actually think vinyl will make a bigger come back before SACD does. I'm seeing more and more people showing interest, including me. I just need to figure out where I would setup a TT rig.

I love my Oppo(s) that I use for my SA-CD playing. There are also a few really good non-classical/jazz titles out there -- Pink Floyd: Dark Side of the Moon, Nine Inch Nails: The Downward Spiral, Elton John: Madman Across the Water, Billy Joel: The Stranger, and Dire Straits: Brother in Arms to name a few. There are some that are very difficult to find for less than $100 -- Most Sting SACD's, for example.

Because of the visual aspect that people usual get drawn to, I'm surprised that DVD-A did not do better. I know that I have purchased more concert movies with BD than I ever did on DVD.

I'm afraid that BD audio will have a similar fate as SACD's. Great quality sound, but not enough following. Out of all the people I know, I would say maybe one or two of them is NOT satisfied with lossy audio and rip all of their music to FLAC or ALAC. This is also a limiting factor with SACD and BD-Audio. There is not software that will rip the music to a data format. I would love to rip all of my SACD's to a DSD file and stream them directly to my Denon. Heck, I would be satisfied with a multi-channel WAV file.

F1nut

I love my Oppo(s) that I use for my SA-CD playing.

No offense, but you haven't really heard what SACD can do.

Because of the visual aspect that people usual get drawn to, I'm surprised that DVD-A did not do better.

A common misconception. DVD-A had nothing to do with video, hence the A for audio.

Out of all the people I know, I would say maybe one or two of them is NOT satisfied with lossy audio and rip all of their music to FLAC or ALAC.

I know a whole lot of folks you can add to your list, including me.

There is not software that will rip the music to a data format. I would love to rip all of my SACD's to a DSD file and stream them directly to my Denon. Heck, I would be satisfied with a multi-channel WAV file.

Sadly, that seems to be the way for many. I've seen, heard and played with it. I still don't get what the attraction is other than the desire for instant gratification, which seems to be sweeping the nation these days. Of course, there are many that say it's all about convenience. The irony I find in that is I'd bet I can find the SACD or CD, place it in the player and push play before most could locate their file. Not to mention, I've got the art work and liner notes if I want to look at them.

louhamilton

F1nut wrote: »

No offense, but you haven't really heard what SACD can do.

That may true, but I've been more than happy with my experience thus far.

A common misconception. DVD-A had nothing to do with video, hence the A for audio.

I understand that. I have a couple titles. However, most from what I have seen through some videos or had images in a slideshow while the music played. My Nine Inch nails DVD-A is a good example. I know its all gimmick, but it was more of a draw than audio only.

I know a whole lot of folks you can add to your list, including me.

I guess I don't know as many people who appreciate the music.

Sadly, that seems to be the way for many. I've seen, heard and played with it. I still don't get what the attraction is other than the desire for instant gratification, which seems to be sweeping the nation these days. Of course, there are many that say it's all about convenience. The irony I find in that is I'd bet I can find the SACD or CD, place it in the player and push play before most could locate their file. Not to mention, I've got the art work and liner notes if I want to look at them.

May be true, but I can find most of my music rather quickly with my Apple TV, especially with playlists for genres, artists, decade, etc.

dorokusai

Aside from a handful of rag covers and hype, vinyl will continue to be a niche market with it's buddy SACD and red headed stepchild DVD-A. I can't wait to ignore the wax pandering at CES this year.

F1nut

That may true, but I've been more than happy with my experience thus far.

Well, that's a good thing.

louhamilton

F1nut wrote: »

Well, that's a good thing.

Out of curiosity. What would you recommend as a better SACD path?

I currently use the Oppo to stream the DSD signal to my Denon 3808ci for decoding.

KASR

ntculenuff wrote: »

HTIB (home theater in a box) is also a high contributor of killing hi rez audio IMO. people are just satisfied with the sound of those little systems and you just can't hear the difference with these box systems. but a lot of people feel that these systems are adequate for all music and movies and for most people i suppose it is but for the rest of us that enjoy and geek out on sound know and can hear the differences unfortunately i guess there is just not enough of us for the industry to justify making all the sacd and dvd-a stuff. sad sad.
well that is just my opinion. kinda like people wanting to make sure their little Sony htib with 1200 watts can do true hd, really??!! (1200 watts is more than what I'm running. guess i should have just got that instead of all the stuff i have)

This is a great illustration of how the mass is fed consumer products at a sub-par quality and then the benchmark is set ... I have a ton of friends who had never heard of Harman Kardon, Marantz, Sennheiser, B&W...yet, you say Sony, Yamaha, and/or any of the readily available components at your local wal-mart and they're like: "yea....I heard they sounded/looked really good!"

Sigh....

Danny Tse

KASR wrote: »

This is a great illustration of how the mass is fed consumer products at a sub-par quality and then the benchmark is set ... I have a ton of friends who had never heard of Harman Kardon, Marantz, Sennheiser, B&W...yet, you say Sony, Yamaha, and/or any of the readily available components at your local wal-mart and they're like: "yea....I heard they sounded/looked really good!"

Sigh....

But there are hardly any alternatives around. I live in an area that used to have a chain called "The Good Guys" that carried brands like, Energy, Parasound, Mirage, Monitor Audio, upper-end Denons, Sony ES, etc. Now "The Good Guys" are long gone. No more Circuit City either....at least they carried HK, Onkyo, Infinity, etc. All that it's left is Best Buy, Walmart and Target. Best Buy does operate some "Magnolia HiFi" stores within the bigger Best Buy stores, but selection is still limited to whatever they carried (Definitive Tech., Denon, Pioneer Elite, Martin Logan, etc.)

Of course, there're the independent hifi dealers. I suppose those can be intimidating to the mass consumers. Not to mention many have bad attitude about dealing with customers.

I do have to say that Sony did make SACD available to many of its HTiB systems. Onkyo also has a mini shelf system, for about $300.00, with SACD as well. Unfortunately, people would rather spend $300.00 on an iPod nowadays.

pitdogg2

louhamilton wrote: »

Out of curiosity. What would you recommend as a better SACD path?

I currently use the Oppo to stream the DSD signal to my Denon 3808ci for decoding.

Well I think you may be confused or I am by this statement....Your Denon 3808 is only "decoding" the lower freq. and sending it to the sub or full range speakers that can handle it. As far as I know the 3808 like my 3805 cannot decode DSD it only has "bass management".

I'm not knocking the OPPO's as I do not know much about how it handles SADC/DVD-A in the signal path. some of the players that decode DSD just switch it to a CD like PCM signal. My Denon 3910 and Denon 3805 use the "Denonlink" that keeps the signal in the digital form thru all bass management until output to the speakers. I can hear a big difference between it and using the analog outputs on the 3910 it can also use HDMI and a firewire link. I cannot use the HDMI as the 3805 has no input's for it.
The Denons,marantz & Sony's I know use the latest Sony chips to keep everything DSD as do most of the upper end gear but as stated above some others don't and you really aren't getting the TRUE SACD experience.

The younger generation will never grab anything like SACD,DVD-A,Vinyl and a host of others there the lost Ipod Sanza and all the other like them generation because for them it's not about sound it's about I have 13 gazillion tunes on mine and I bought non of them. I liked my cassette player and will admit to recording friends stuff i didn't have or knew that i would like and it for the most part turned me into a buyer of that album or CD...aaaa the good old days and I'm all of 44....:D

louhamilton

pitdogg2 wrote: »

Well I think you may be confused or I am by this statement....Your Denon 3808 is only "decoding" the lower freq. and sending it to the sub or full range speakers that can handle it. As far as I know the 3808 like my 3805 cannot decode DSD it only has "bass management".

I'm not knocking the OPPO's as I do not know much about how it handles SADC/DVD-A in the signal path. some of the players that decode DSD just switch it to a CD like PCM signal. My Denon 3910 and Denon 3805 use the "Denonlink" that keeps the signal in the digital form thru all bass management until output to the speakers. I can hear a big difference between it and using the analog outputs on the 3910 it can also use HDMI and a firewire link. I cannot use the HDMI as the 3805 has no input's for it.
The Denons,marantz & Sony's I know use the latest Sony chips to keep everything DSD as do most of the upper end gear but as stated above some others don't and you really aren't getting the TRUE SACD experience.

The younger generation will never grab anything like SACD,DVD-A,Vinyl and a host of others there the lost Ipod Sanza and all the other like them generation because for them it's not about sound it's about I have 13 gazillion tunes on mine and I bought non of them. I liked my cassette player and will admit to recording friends stuff i didn't have or knew that i would like and it for the most part turned me into a buyer of that album or CD...aaaa the good old days and I'm all of 44....:D

Actually, the 3808 accepts a native DSD signal over HDMI. That was a key selling point for me.

I have tested the Oppo with a DSD signal versus a PCM signal over HDMI. Without changing anything, I preferred the sound of the DSD. Granted, I did not play with any of the settings within the Oppo. I felt the DSD signal provided a fuller mid-range.

I also listen to my music in 'Direct" mode. I used to use the 'Stereo' mode when I had bookshelves, but my towers can go down to 38Hz so no need for the sub for 2-channel.

BTW, I'm the ripe age of 37.

vc69

I am not sure what the above poster (pitdogg) is talking about, or F1 for that matter.

The Oppo BDP-83 can decode DSD-->Analog or DSD-->PCM-->Analog. It can also bitstream DSD to a capable DAC or Receiver/Pre/Pro.

.02

To say it isn't the "best" SACD player is surely true. However to say one cannot experience what SACD is "capable of" with the Oppo is kind of a stretch. If nothing else, it certainly gives one that exact experience. It is rather well reviewed by people that have way more depth of experience with many different players than I have. I have no doubt there are better players, but it does let SACD shine and on a budget the regular guy can afford.

/.02

danger boy

SACD would probably do much better if released today.. with the bugs worked out.. and all Blu ray players were able to also play SACD's via HDMI instead of the analog RCA's that they used to have to back when the format was first launched.

multi-format players are what people are looking for.. remember back then when you had to buy a SACD player from Sony just to play them? whereby DVD audio in most cases also held a DVD track.. where the listener didn't have to go out and buy an expensive SACD player.

danger boy

i also find it funny how people wil spend a tremendous amount of money for their cell phones and cell phone plans but won't spend anything on a decent player..

for instance.. say you purchase a $299 cell phone.. with a data plan and 1500 minutes.. and your monthly cost is $120 - $160+ per month.. think of how may SACD or Blu ray players you could buy in just one year. but people don't see it that way.

at $150 per month for a cell phone plan. you could buy a $1800 SACD player.. a mighty nice one i would think.

vc69

Phone = necessity

Player = luxury (for most)

I hope to goodness you aren't paying those kinds of prices for cell phone service. THAT would severely cut into my audio budget.

danger boy

vc69 wrote: »

Phone = necessity

Player = luxury (for most)

I hope to goodness you aren't paying those kinds of prices for cell phone service. THAT would severely cut into my audio budget.

you'd be surprised what people pay per month for cell phone plans with data and unlimited texting. :eek:

for the record. i don't have a data plan or unlimited texting.. i pay $85 for three cell phones on a family plan.

danger boy

vc69 wrote: »

Phone = necessity

Player = luxury (for most)

I hope to goodness you aren't paying those kinds of prices for cell phone service. THAT would severely cut into my audio budget.

phone = necessity? says who? there are still people who don't own a cell phone.

vc69

danger boy wrote: »

phone = necessity? says who? there are still people who don't own a cell phone.

Right.

There are still people that don't need a SACD player too.

Edit: My parent's have a cell phone. They can't figure out how to answer it... but they have one.

hearingimpared

danger boy wrote: »

phone = necessity? says who? there are still people who don't own a cell phone.

I don't have one, don't need one nor do I want one. If someone needs to call me I have a lan line in my home.

pitdogg2

vc69 wrote: »

I am not sure what the above poster (pitdogg) is talking about, or F1 for that matter.

The Oppo BDP-83 can decode DSD-->Analog or DSD-->PCM-->Analog. It can also bitstream DSD to a capable DAC or Receiver/Pre/Pro.

.02

To say it isn't the "best" SACD player is surely true. However to say one cannot experience what SACD is "capable of" with the Oppo is kind of a stretch. If nothing else, it certainly gives one that exact experience. It is rather well reviewed by people that have way more depth of experience with many different players than I have. I have no doubt there are better players, but it does let SACD shine and on a budget the regular guy can afford.

/.02

Well as i said:

I'm not knocking the OPPO's as I do not know much about how it handles SADC/DVD-A in the signal path. some of the players that decode DSD just switch it to a CD like PCM signal

got home last night had several audio mags in the mailbox and a couple had the Oppo BDP-83 they were testing and all seemed to like it very well and at 500.00 seems to be a steal. I will look into it for a blu-ray player when I can afford to upgrade to 7 ch amp and pre/pro and new panel TV to replace my 3805 Denon receiver... then again who knows things change so much the Oppo my have something better.

louhamilton

pitdogg2 wrote: »

Well as i said:

I'm not knocking the OPPO's as I do not know much about how it handles SADC/DVD-A in the signal path. some of the players that decode DSD just switch it to a CD like PCM signal

got home last night had several audio mags in the mailbox and a couple had the Oppo BDP-83 they were testing and all seemed to like it very well and at 500.00 seems to be a steal. I will look into it for a blu-ray player when I can afford to upgrade to 7 ch amp and pre/pro and new panel TV to replace my 3805 Denon receiver... then again who knows things change so much the Oppo my have something better.

I'm bitstreaming the DSD signal to my Denon, so my Oppo really is not doing anything as far as processing. :shrug:

vc69

I am using 2ch analog out of my -83 and it does a direct DSD-->analog conversion. I can set it to do a DSD-->PCM-->analog but I have no desire to.