SACD - why it failed commercially, from an insider's perspective
Danny Tse
Posts: 5,206
There is currently an interesting thread over at stevehoffman.tv on how and why SACD failed commercially, from a Sony insider's perspective. If you're not a member of stevehoffman.tv, what you will miss are photos of test pressings of SACDs, all of which never made it to market or rejected by various music labels.
http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=199295
http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/showthread.php?t=199295
Post edited by Danny Tse on
Comments
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Without even clicking on the thread and reading it.......my thoughts are that it failed miserably because they didn't advertise the product appropriately or adequately.~ In search of accurate reproduction of music. Real sound is my reference and while perfection may not be attainable? If I chase it, I might just catch excellence. ~
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Without even clicking on the thread and reading it.......my thoughts are that it failed miserably because they didn't advertise the product appropriately or adequately.
I would have to agree. Not that I'm any sort of expert, but I am about 40% geek 60% mortal, and I never really heard of it until I started poking around here a few months ago. -
Thanks for the link Danny. Sony really dropped the ball.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Blu-ray will not suffer the same, it's already proven to be much, much more successful.
Even if SCAD was advertised appropriately it still would fail. Why? There's just not a high enough demand for HD audio. This is a generation of portable audio.
The visual stimulation of HD video is a much greater sensation then with audio. Seeing something like Blu-ray on a 1080p TV provokes a greater sensation then SCAD on a 2-channel rig (speaking from a general public standpoint).
Thousands upon thousands have 1080 TVs where not nearly that amount have dedicated 2-channel rigs.
Most (like myself) just don't get the same stimulation from listening (audio) to music as I do seeing something on the screen (video and audio).
SCAD is a single person experience where as a HD HT rig can be shared by many.If...
Ron dislikes a film = go out and buy it.
Ron loves a film = don't even rent. -
It would have succeeded with the general public if Sony had done what they stated, which was that all issues would be a single inventory of hybrid SACD's. No more Redbook only issues.
Blu-Ray has a long, long way to go before it takes over standard DVD.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Taking over and being successful are two very different ball games.If...
Ron dislikes a film = go out and buy it.
Ron loves a film = don't even rent. -
In that case Ron, I'd have to say SACD is successful. There have been over 6000 titles issued, they are still being made and most players today support SACD playback.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
Without even clicking on the thread and reading it.......my thoughts are that it failed miserably because they didn't advertise the product appropriately or adequately.
Agreed 100%Linn AV5140 fronts
Linn AV5120 Center
Linn AV5140 Rears
M&K MX-70 Sub for Music
Odyssey Mono-Blocs
SVS Ultra-13 Gloss Black:D -
HTIB (home theater in a box) is also a high contributor of killing hi rez audio IMO. people are just satisfied with the sound of those little systems and you just can't hear the difference with these box systems. but a lot of people feel that these systems are adequate for all music and movies and for most people i suppose it is but for the rest of us that enjoy and geek out on sound know and can hear the differences unfortunately i guess there is just not enough of us for the industry to justify making all the sacd and dvd-a stuff. sad sad.
well that is just my opinion. kinda like people wanting to make sure their little Sony htib with 1200 watts can do true hd, really??!! (1200 watts is more than what I'm running. guess i should have just got that instead of all the stuff i have)
Speakers:
Definitive BP7001sc mains
Definitive C/L/R 3000 center
Polk RT800i's rears
Definitive supercube I Sub
Audio:
Onkyo TX-NR3010
Emotiva XPA five Gen 3
OPPO BDP-103 CD, SACD, DVD-A
Video:
Panasonic TC-P65ZT60
OPPO BDP-103 Bluray
Directv x's 2 -
Video is just such an easier sell on a best buy/walmart floor.... people have have the intent and the time to find good audio.My Iron Man training/charity blog.
HT:
32" Sharp LCD. H/K dpr 1001 to Outlaw Audio 7900 to Polk LSi + Paradigm Studio center. Hsu DualDrive ULS-15. PS3/Wii. Outlaw 7900. -
Without even clicking on the thread and reading it.......my thoughts are that it failed miserably because they didn't advertise the product appropriately or adequately.
Actually it goes way deeper than that from what I read. There was so much infighting & management changes within the various companies, and the egos of the talent that wanted things their way that happened during that period that the format didn't stand a chance of surviving regardless if they had promoted it.:mad:Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2 -
Blu-Ray has far exceeded SACD and is clearly a front runner. If they can lower the price per title, it will grow exponentially.
SACD is not a succesful format. 6000 releases means nothing to anyone but DVD-A.CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint. -
In that case Ron, I'd have to say SACD is successful. There have been over 6000 titles issued, they are still being made and most players today support SACD playback.
Hardly any mass market CD players I have seen support SACD's. Doesn't seem to be common among BluRay players either.
What players are you speaking of?Front - Polk LSiM 705, Center - Polk LSiM 704c, Rear - Polk LSi 7
Subwoofer - Epik Legend
Receiver (as Preamp) - Sony STR-DA3400 ES
Amplifier - Outlaw 7125
Television - 58" Samsung Plasma PN58B860
Blu Ray - OPPO BDP 83 -
I really like what I heard SACD wise at PF09 but some quick googling of the CD titles that we were listening to by Shack showed the titles going for just shy of $ 150.00. As Ted says you gotta pay to play but I just can't swing that.
I know nothing of the manufacturing process or cost but hybrid redbook/SACD releases would satisfy everyone and increase the the exposure of SACD benefits to more people that may not know about SACD.
If BR is going to be the format of the future and most families will have a BR player why not come out with a format the a common BR player would reveal the qualities of SACD on a BR format. BlueRay Audio. It may already exist. I don't know.
I do not have a BR player or an SACD player as of yet but I have been looking into getting one and would like a SACD player also. The Oppo would fit this bill pretty nicely but most families are not going to spend $500 for this player when they can buy a BR player at Walmart for $100.
My wife bought a DVD for the kids last night and I said to her we should invest in a BR player and purchase BR DVD's instead of the regular DVD's. It went over better that I thought but we shall see.
ScottI like speakers that are bigger than a small refrigerator but smaller than a big refrigerator:D -
Hardly any mass market CD players I have seen support SACD's. Doesn't seem to be common among BluRay players either.
What players are you speaking of?
http://www.nextag.com/sacd-players/products-html?nxtg=d1780a1c0515-DAEB30E6525ECAB0
http://www.crutchfield.com/app/product/search/searchresults.aspx?search=sacd+players&ssi=0&nvpair=FFCategory%7c%5brank53100%5dCD+Players
The popular Oppo BDP-83 does SACD/Blu-Ray
I'm sure there are more, Google is your friend.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
The equipment support for SACD was more than available and its a shame the format didn't follow suit. All levels of audio had excellent SACD support.CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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Video is just such an easier sell on a best buy/walmart floor....
Even more importantly, you can watch pornography with a HT. That is a big reason why video will always trump audio in any form.
While SACD may have "failed", Bluray lossless audio will become available for those that care about such things. When it does become available I hope there are no copy protection BS methods associated with BR audio. To succeed, we need the ability to extract hi-res files from a BR disk, and send the digital output to a good external DAC. I suspect SACD's copy protection also had a part in it's failure.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
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Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
I just grabbed the mail, and two magazines arrived; stereophile and Playboy. I must be getting old since I looked at stereophile first.
Anyway, the stereophile cover photo is captioned “Digital Done Right – The DCS Puccini SACD Payer”, and it also has “Denon’s Great-Value, Great Sounding SACD Receiver” (???). Looks like a great lazy Saturday read.Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD; Pass XP-22 pre; X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers; SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR on source, Denali 2000 (2) on amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson V.3 four shelf solid maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits. -
I just grabbed the mail, and two magazines arrived; stereophile and Playboy. I must be getting old since I looked at stereophile first.
No worries, it's all ****.
Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
I think the motivation first and foremost for SACD was to be a non-user-copyable digital (audio) format. The "pitch" was the audio quality.
Also worth mentioning, I'd opine, that SACD wasn't strictly two-channel; there was (is?) a multichannel SACD format as well.
As to BluRay; I'm thinking "8-track of the early 21st Century", but I am something of a Luddite. I really don't care at all for the bright, hyper-real look of modern TV. Makes me think of hallucinogens... -
Wont there be audio only BD's that will be hd and kick every other formats **** . Good thing about that would be is no more expensive cables and just one tidy hdmi
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Few thoughts on SACD vs. Blue Ray. Blue Ray caught on because the cost of entry is pretty low. These days, you can (and probably already have) buy a tv for $400-$500 that would easily show that BlueRay video blows away the quality of standard DVD. And it's visually enticing. People see something they like on a tv from across the store, and walk over to have a look. But, like everyone is saying, the HTIB crap out there that most consumers own, simply won't be able to demonstrate the added benefit of SACD. To do that, you need a system like most of us have, which costs a great deal more than mainstream would ever even think to spend on the sound portion of their equipment.
Also, I think the encryption and locked-door policy, typical of Sony, which forces you to use a closed-end player rather than sending out to a dac or god forbid pulling onto a hard drive. Many of us like and prefer computer based audio, and the idea of getting up out of my chair to change a cd is neanderthal)
And Jesse is absolutely correct! The fact that all releases aren't dual layer is what Sony really eff'ed up.Good music, a good source, and good power can make SDA's sing. Tubes make them dance. -
I'm not sure why SACD is even news worthy anymore.CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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Because it sounds better than anything else.Political Correctness'.........defined
"A doctrine fostered by a delusional, illogical minority and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a t-u-r-d by the clean end."
President of Club Polk -
LOL! Jesse got you there Mark. Sigh, maybe it will make a come back of a sort. I like to live with hope.Marantz AV-7705 PrePro, Classé 5 channel 200wpc Amp, Oppo 103 BluRay, Rotel RCD-1072 CDP, Sony XBR-49X800E TV, Polk S60 Main Speakers, Polk ES30 Center Channel, Polk S15 Surround Speakers SVS SB12-NSD x2
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Yea, he's a real zinger artist.CTC BBQ Amplifier, Sonic Frontiers Line3 Pre-Amplifier and Wadia 581 SACD player. Speakers? Always changing but for now, Mission Argonauts I picked up for $50 bucks, mint.
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Since getting into Blu-ray I've been mostly buying concert/music videos. While I agree that SACD has the best audio SQ, if they keep improving the new audio codecs it's not going to be long before it catches up. I have been amazed at the audio quality of some of the Blu-ray concert videos.DKG999
HT System: LSi9, LSiCx2, LSiFX, LSi7, SVS 20-39 PC+, B&K 507.s2 AVR, B&K Ref 125.2, Tripplite LCR-2400, Cambridge 650BD, Signal Cable PC/SC, BJC IC, Samsung 55" LED
Music System: Magnepan 1.6QR, SVS SB12+, ARC pre, Parasound HCA1500 vertically bi-amped, Jolida CDP, Pro-Ject RM5.1SE TT, Pro-Ject TubeBox SE phono pre, SBT, PS Audio DLIII DAC -
In that case Ron, I'd have to say SACD is successful. There have been over 6000 titles issued, they are still being made and most players today support SACD playback.
Well then, good news for you SCAD guys. Why all the fuss then? If it's successful and still in production the title of this thread is a bit misleading.If...
Ron dislikes a film = go out and buy it.
Ron loves a film = don't even rent. -
I consider SACD a dismal failure in that I can't just order any title I want in that format.
I have very little hope that BD will do anything in the way of audio only releases. Particularly of titles I would want.-Kevin
HT: Philips 52PFL7432D 52" LCD 1080p / Onkyo TX-SR 606 / Oppo BDP-83 SE / Comcast cable. (all HDMI)B&W 801 - Front, Polk CS350 LS - Center, Polk LS90 - Rear
2 Channel:
Oppo BDP-83 SE
Squeezebox Touch
Muscial Fidelity M1 DAC
VTL 2.5
McIntosh 2205 (refurbed)
B&W 801's
Transparent IC's -
I am blocked from Hoffman so cant see the link.
Didn't mO-Fi just release The Band stuff????
If your glass is half empty get a smaller glass.
SACD survives even thrives in its nitch, but I guess 400 years of classical music just wont do here, does it, not to mention Jazz, but then its a bit complex for us.......????? save for Steely Dan but Fagen is one in a million and tricked you into it.
On an upbeat I just a bagged a SACD Stray Cats, yea, that Setzer guy is the pits though, no talent right, how about David Elias, Cowboy Junkies, yea you have to hunt them but with patience there is alot that acutally got out.
early on I remember bemoaning Sony and their bean counters over SACD and the path they chose with it......follow the money and the power as you ask why? ask the right people why? oh, about five times and you will likely get close to what happened.
Blu-Ray certainly does offer some hope for audio, but a repeat performance by Sony??? well you got to at least consider it.
I already have enough SACD and Vinyl to last any man a lifetime so its all gravy for me....or potato salad depending on my moooood. But I am certainly going to continue to buy SACD releases, I applaude MoFi, Hoffman, and some others for continuing to make them, in the end I suspect those wanting hi-rez will be downloading it, of course it has to be available for hi-rez download.........cheesh, did someone just say we have to call Sony for that......oh boy!!!!!
RT1
