Does the f/x500is have tweeter protection that could effect Audyssey calibration?

Larry Chanin

Hi,

I'm the original owner of a pair of f/x500i surround speakers. I've never abused these speakers.

Recently I've purchased an Onkyo preamplifier that includes Audyssey consumer calibration, and I also purchased a Professional kit that permits running the Pro version of the calibration software.

I've been getting rather inconsistent results with the both versions of the Audyssey software. High noise levels only on one of the surround speakers when using the professional software and very inconsistent setting of its surround trim levels with the consumer software.

Both software use a rather energetic test chirp when performing the calibration. I was wondering whether these speakers have some sort of automatic tweeter protection which might trip when repeatedly hit with a series of test chirps, then it might automatically reset when the voice coils cool?

My speaker's Instruction Manual doesn't seem to mention anything like this, but such a protection circuit might explain some of my problems.

Right now I'm listening to the preamplifier's radio tuner with all speakers turned off except the surrounds and everything sounds fine, that is no blown tweeters.

Any thoughts?

Thanks.

Larry

vc69

Audyssey is tricky thing. For me, consistent results have taken a bit of experimentation and quite a few runs.

Can you clarify what "high noise levels" means? What exactly is Audyssey doing with the trims? Are you getting different results with exactly the same mic placements? The order of your mic placements should not vary, or you may get some inconsistencies.

Larry Chanin

vc69 wrote: »

Audyssey is tricky thing. For me, consistent results have taken a bit of experimentation and quite a few runs.

Can you clarify what "high noise levels" means? What exactly is Audyssey doing with the trims? Are you getting different results with exactly the same mic placements? The order of your mic placements should not vary, or you may get some inconsistencies.

Hi Kevin,

Thanks for your interest.

Audyssey measures the ambient noise in the room and if the signal to noise ratio is not high enough it boosts the level of the test chirps. It will do this twice and if the measured noise is still too high it aborts the measurement session.

The problem is that there is very little ambient noise in my home theater which is fairly well sound proofed. The projector and air condition is off and I live in a quiet neighborhood. The consumer version of the software experienced no noise problems, so I think that the Pro version, with its more sensitive microphone, is reacting to another problem, but calling it "noise".

The sensitivity of my side surrounds is 90 dB which I believe is the same as my other speakers except the back surround speakers which are 88 dB. For example, at 9 feet the side surrounds are set to +10-12 db, versus the back surrounds are set to +.5 dB at 15.4 feet. Doesn't make sense.

To clarify, both Audyssey software are consistentely setting the same trim levels and every measurement was in the same location. (It is the first measurement position that establishes delay and trim levels.) What I meant by "inconsistent" was that after the last consumer calibration I ran the internal test signal and measured the levels with an SPL meter. All the speakers measured about 72 db, but the right side surround level was off the scale. I had to manually reduce the trim by 14 db to get down to 72 dB. (I don't regard the 72 dB level, rather than 75 dB, to be a problem since this is within the tolerances of the SPL meter. Although the SPL meter is not super accurate, and may not measure the exact levels, it is fine for comparing relative levels between channels since the tolerance error is the same in all comparisons. )

Then mysteriously today when I remeasured my so-called "corrected" trim level was no longer correct. When I returned to near the original automatic levels things measured correctly.

As I mention now I'm listening to just those two surrounds with the original trim levels and everything sound great. Absolutely no sign of any damage.

So I was speculating that perhaps a protection circuit was triggerrd that was throwing off the automatic calibrations after as series of test chirps stressed the voice coil, then later when the coil cooled the circuit automatically reset returning to normal.

Anybody know if the f/x500is have tweeter protection that resets itself?

Thanks.

Larry

vc69

I am afraid that you may have a problem I can't help you out with.

You may get further posting a question in this thread at AVS.

Chris from Audyssey frequently posts there. Good luck!

It would not seem as though speaker protection is the root cause. I would think it would be obvious if that were happening. Having said that, I do not know about the FX/i's speaker protection.

Larry Chanin

vc69 wrote: »

I am afraid that you may have a problem I can't help you out with.

You may get further posting a question in this thread at AVS.

Chris from Audyssey frequently posts there. Good luck!

It would not seem as though speaker protection is the root cause. I would think it would be obvious if that were happening. Having said that, I do not know about the FX/i's speaker protection.

Hi Kevin,

Thanks, before posting here I consulted Chris at the AV Sciences forum. He said the intermittent nature of the trim setting problem might be due to tweeter projection.

I came to the Club Polk not for advice on Audyssey, but rather to find out if my speakers even have tweeter protection.

Larry

vc69

Ahh, of course. Well, I wish I could help.

Have you swapped sides to see if the problem persists or moves around with the speaker?

Larry Chanin

vc69 wrote: »

Ahh, of course. Well, I wish I could help.

Have you swapped sides to see if the problem persists or moves around with the speaker?

Hi Kevin,

Not yet. That was one of Chris' suggestions as well.

I sincerely appreciate your interest.

Larry

Larry Chanin

vc69 wrote: »

Ahh, of course. Well, I wish I could help.

Have you swapped sides to see if the problem persists or moves around with the speaker?

Hi Kevin,

I switched the cables to the surrounds. The problem reoccurs on the same right surround channel, but the left speaker is playing the test signals due to the swapping. I think this indicates that the speaker is not the problem. So I think this narrows the problem down to the power amplifier or the preamplifier.

However, when I play stereo in just the surrounds everything sounds fine. So I'm guessing this is a problem with the Onkyo's handling of Audyssey Pro.

Larry

Larry Chanin

Kim wrote: »

There are no polyswitches wired in series to protect the tweeters.
Where are the speakers mounted in the room?
Are they located on the side or rear walls?

Hi Kim,

Thanks for the response.

They are on the side walls.

Larry

vc69

Larry Chanin wrote: »

Hi Kevin,

I switched the cables to the surrounds. The problem reoccurs on the same right surround channel, but the left speaker is playing the test signals due to the swapping. I think this indicates that the speaker is not the problem. So I think this narrows the problem down to the power amplifier or the preamplifier.

However, when I play stereo in just the surrounds everything sounds fine. So I'm guessing this is a problem with the Onkyo's handling of Audyssey Pro.

Larry

Thanks for the followup Larry. I sincerely hope you find a resolution. Please post here when you do.

Does this problem exist with both the pro and the built in versions of the software? Is it possible to use just the onboard MultiXT to do the measurements?

I'm sure you have exhausted all possibilities. Best of luck.

Edit: nevermind... re-read your OP.

Larry Chanin

vc69 wrote: »

Thanks for the followup Larry. I sincerely hope you find a resolution. Please post here when you do.

Does this problem exist with both the pro and the built in versions of the software? Is it possible to use just the onboard MultiXT to do the measurements?

I'm sure you have exhausted all possibilities. Best of luck.

Edit: nevermind... re-read your OP.

Hi Kevin,

I don't get the "noise" problem with the consumer version of MultEQ, but on one occasion the right surround levels was intermittently incorrect (too loud) then correct.

As I mentioned earlier, I think I have eliminated the speakers as being the issue. Kim's response further reenforces this thinking since there is no tweeter protection circuit that would account for an intermittent level problem.

I have been corresponding with Audyssey technical services. The leading theory is that electrical noise from connected source devices is contaminating the Audyssey Pro measurements.

I have been successful in running a 12 point measurement, then two 3 point measurements, then a failure followed by another successful 12 point measurement. I forgot that I had another source component connected to the front of the preamplifier. It was the SMS-1 equalizer circuit for my Velodyne subwoofer. If you are familiar with the SMS-1, it provides a crude frequency response display and although the EQ was defeated, I was using it to provide some visibility of the frequency response at the primary listening location. I disconnected the audio and video connections to it before running the last 12 point calibration. Maybe it contributed to the problem because after I disconnected the SMS-1 I was able to proceed with the last 12 point measurement without any problems.

So far I have resisted the suggestion by Audyssey technical services to do a factory reset of the preamplifier, because it would wipe out all my personalized settings, as well as the Audyssey calibration. However, if the problem continues to periodically recur, even when source devices are disconnected, I guess I'll have no choice.

Larry

Knucklehead

Larry,

I have the FX500i's as well for surrounds, when I run MCAA on my pioneer they respond accordingly with no problems, sounds like it certainly has to do with the Audyssey program. Hope this helps.

David

Larry Chanin

Knucklehead wrote: »

Larry,

I have the FX500i's as well for surrounds, when I run MCAA on my pioneer they respond accordingly with no problems, sounds like it certainly has to do with the Audyssey program. Hope this helps.

David

Hi David,

Thanks for the response.

I know a professional calibrator who also ran into this "noise" problem with an Onkyo PR-SC886. His theory is that it is Onkyo's implementation of Audyssey Pro that is the culprit.

Larry

vc69

Larry Chanin wrote: »

Hi David,

Thanks for the response.

I know a professional calibrator who also ran into this "noise" problem with an Onkyo PR-SC886. His theory is that it is Onkyo's implementation of Audyssey Pro that is the culprit.

Larry

Larry Chanin wrote: »

Hi Kevin,
<snip>
So far I have resisted the suggestion by Audyssey technical services to do a factory reset of the preamplifier, because it would wipe out all my personalized settings, as well as the Audyssey calibration. However, if the problem continues to periodically recur, even when source devices are disconnected, I guess I'll have no choice.

Larry

I would not doubt that. Which makes me wonder if a reset would actually help.
Being a computer tech, my inclination is always to try a "reboot" first. I know it's a PITA, but it would eliminate a crapped up load. Software is prone to glitches. Just a thought.

Larry Chanin

vc69 wrote: »

I would not doubt that. Which makes me wonder if a reset would actually help.
Being a computer tech, my inclination is always to try a "reboot" first. I know it's a PITA, but it would eliminate a crapped up load. Software is prone to glitches. Just a thought.

Hi Kevin,

Yes, I'll undoubtedly bite the bullet and do a reset.

After successfully running an Audyssey Pro calibration without any "noise" error messages, I again measured the levels of the internal test tones with an SPL meter. All the speakers were close to 75 dB except both surround speakers were about 10 dB too low. I had to manually increase the trims to get them close to reference level.

I'm having folks over tonight for a movie so I don't want to start fiddling with my Onkyo today, but tomorrow I'll give a reset a try.

Larry

Larry Chanin

Larry Chanin wrote: »

Hi Kevin,

Yes, I'll undoubtedly bite the bullet and do a reset.

After successfully running an Audyssey Pro calibration without any "noise" error messages, I again measured the levels of the internal test tones with an SPL meter. All the speakers were close to 75 dB except both surround speakers were about 10 dB too low. I had to manually increase the trims to get them close to reference level.

I'm having folks over tonight for a movie so I don't want to start fiddling with my Onkyo today, but tomorrow I'll give a reset a try.

Larry

Hi,

I did a reset and that had no effect on the problem.

I think my problem is not the Onkyo, but rather my surround power amplifier.

This week I upgraded my surround speakers to LSif/xs, the same series as my surround back speakers. They have the same tweeters and sensitivity as my surround back speakers, LCi265s, and they are being powered by identical stereo power amplifiers. It seems that despite the similarities, the surround speakers always sound a lot lower in level than the surround back speakers. (This was true of the F/x500i speakers they replaced as well, even though they also had the same sensitivity.) This lower volume is particularly true of the right surround channel. As a result Audyssey consistently has set the surround trims at or near the maximum setting of +12 dB.

I switched the surround power amplifiers and now the surround speakers sound louder and the right surround back speaker, is lower in volume. I ran a 3 point measurement with the power amplifiers reversed and the trims on the surround are only +.5 and +1.0, the right surround back is +8.0 and the left surround back is +2.0. So the problem seems to be following the power amplifier, particularly the right channel. If it were a problem with the Onkyo I would have expected the problem to stay with the right surround channel.

I also notice that on the Audyssey Pro before equalization results there is a high frequency downward tilt that follows the suspected faulty power amplifier. When it was connected to the surround channels the before response fell off and had to be corrected by Audyssey, but the surround back channel's before response was fairly level. The opposite was observed when switching the power amplifiers. Now the surround back speaker's before equalization response was falling off and the side surround were level. In other words, the power amplifier no longer provides a flat frequency response.

So far I've run three Audyssey Pro calibrations without the "noise" problem aborting my measurements, but I think it is inevitable that the problem will eventually recur with the amplifier not putting out the required amount of clean power. So I'll be looking to replace my power amplifier.

Larry

Larry Chanin

Hi,

This is a final update on my problem. I replaced my faulty amplifier, a Parasound HCA-1500A with a Parasound HCA-2200II. I've run multiple Audyssey Pro calibrations with no problems. The surround trim levels are no longer high positive numbers and I've also solved a Volume Scaling issue where the master volume would max-out before hitting reference level.

Thanks to those that participated in this thread.

Larry

polkie4life

Thinking aloud here. I have 500i's, does the Bipole/Dipole switch come into play at all? I cant recall which setting alters the phase of the tweeters.

I don't have a receiver with Audyssey so am curious too.

Knucklehead

Larry Chanin wrote: »

Hi,

This is a final update on my problem. I replaced my faulty amplifier, a Parasound HCA-1500A with a Parasound HCA-2200II. I've run multiple Audyssey Pro calibrations with no problems. The surround trim levels are no longer high positive numbers and I've also solved a Volume Scaling issue where the master volume would max-out before hitting reference level.

Thanks to those that participated in this thread.

Larry

Thats great Larry, Im glad you got it straightened out....rock on!

Larry Chanin

polkie4life wrote: »

Thinking aloud here. I have 500i's, does the Bipole/Dipole switch come into play at all? I cant recall which setting alters the phase of the tweeters.

I don't have a receiver with Audyssey so am curious too.

Hi,

I had thought that it might be a contributing factor if the microphone was positioned in a dipole null, but after experimentation in both modes it turned out not to be a factor whatsoever. I also upgraded to LSif/xs without any real change in the problem.

I want to be clear, Audyssey works fine with virtually any kind of speaker. I just thought that it was obvious I had a problem and I wondered that if my microphone was positioned in a null it might not produce a high enough signal to noise ratio to overcome the other, then undiagnosed noise problem.

In dipole mode the tweeters are out of phase.

Larry

Larry Chanin

Knucklehead wrote: »

Thats great Larry, Im glad you got it straightened out....rock on!

Hi David,

Thanks very much.

Larry

sudrupcir

vc69 wrote: »

Audyssey is tricky thing. For me, consistent results have taken a bit of experimentation and quite a few runs.

Can you clarify what "high noise levels" means? What exactly is Audyssey doing with the trims? Are you getting different results with exactly the same mic placements? The order of your mic placements should not vary, or you may get some inconsistencies.

I accept with information: Audyssey measures the ambient noise in the room and if the signal to noise ratio is not high enough it boosts the level of the test chirps. It will do this twice and if the measured noise is still too high it aborts the measurement session.

vc69

Reported ^^^

Larry Chanin

sudrupcir wrote: »

I accept with information: Audyssey measures the ambient noise in the room and if the signal to noise ratio is not high enough it boosts the level of the test chirps. It will do this twice and if the measured noise is still too high it aborts the measurement session.

Hi,

Yes, I see that you quoted my response to the question. What is your question or comment?

Larry