Expensive audio products...worth it?

madmax

I noticed someone earlier said something about saving up for gear. That is something I've never done. I don't want any real heart to go into a piece of gear because it could make it harder to tell yourself it sucks. I typically just put it on the card and figure out later how to pay it off. Not for everyone.
madmax

coolsax

madmax wrote: »

I noticed someone earlier said something about saving up for gear. That is something I've never done. I don't want any real heart to go into a piece of gear because it could make it harder to tell yourself it sucks. I typically just put it on the card and figure out later how to pay it off. Not for everyone.
madmax

probably not the most efficient way to do it(long term, obviously most efficient short term ).. but I'm right there with you on this.. I'll figure it out later.. helped on my avr though got 18 mo no interest through BB. just like saving up only i have it while i'm saving up for it

beardog03

I remember a long time ago, I was in a "stereo shop" looking at a "high end" AVR and went into the sound room...I had made my mind up that I was going to get this receiver and was looking at speakers...

I went all around the room listening to speakers when the guy came in and flipped some swithches and POW...that was it !!...the sound I was looking for
Turned out to be some Carver mono blocks 7`s or 9`s not sure..

I said to myself right then, that someday when I got the coin together, that I would have somethingg like that !

That was some 10 or 15 years ago , I think..

I bought he AVR...a yammie, and was happy....

until one day I wanted some speaker grills for my RTi2000`s.

I found this place and , with ALOT of guidence I worked my way up into what I have now.

It`s not always about the cost, but about the value, performance, build quality, and most of all the sound that you get as you move up into something that was built for just one reason......pure sound quality.

I still have a long way to go to get that "feeling" that I got that day, but I am on my way.....and loving every "discovery" that I make


All with the help of the friends that I made here at Club Polk

Just remeber...the Journey counts !!

And I`m not even close to being done yet.....if there is such a thing

markmarc

thuffman03 wrote: »

IMO there is a diminishing return on investment to a point. There is a very good example of this with the Carver Challenge. Bob Carver took his M1.0 $700 amp and made it sound like a $10k amp.

http://www.stereophile.com/features/the_carver_challenge/

The one thing people forget to ask about the Carver challenge is why Bob Carver never built such an amp at a killer price? Simple, because it couldn't be done on a mass scale for a variety of reasons.

treitz3

Huh?

steveinaz

As much as I'd like to have the income necessary to be a "price-no-object" listener, there's also a side of me that enjoys getting great bang for my buck.

I definitely want to kick my speaker game up a BIG notch.

beardog03

I would like to do that also...

I just really don`t know where to start

Fundage is slim unfortunately, but I have always owned Polk Speaks

The ones I have drooling after are Sonus Fabers....way outta reach

thuffman03

markmarc wrote: »

The one thing people forget to ask about the Carver challenge is why Bob Carver never built such an amp at a killer price? Simple, because it couldn't be done on a mass scale for a variety of reasons.

I have to disagree with you on your statement. He did make his M 1.0 amp which cost $700 at the time compared to the $10,000 tube amp sound the same. He then went on and made all of his amps have a tube like sound. The modded amp after the challange was called the M1.0t.

All the TFM amps are made to sound like the Carver Silver 7 tube amps, which were a $20,000 amp, and most of the the Sunfire amps have two different outputs. One to give you a tight solidstate soundstage and the other to give a tube soundstage.

So IMO he did give the masses an option for a solidstate amp that would sound like a high end tube amp for a lot less money.

heiney9

^^ I take it you were there so you know first hand. What was it like to be around all that press? When did you own the Silver 7's and when did you compare them to every TFM amp? Why did you sell the Silver 7's? Bet you wish you would have kept those. Do you still have the M1.0t you used for comparison?

H9

thsmith

I can not add any real value to this conversation but that has never stopped me from having an opinion.

Many of the people here who have posted to this thread has helped my get on the right path to my journey like H9, Hearingimparied, Jesse and Goerge and many others.

What I am finding that works for me is buying used gear at the right price that allows me to re-sell it with out to much loss has allowed me to find the synergy I have now.

Specifically my SDA-1Cs, Adcom GFP-750 pre, Rotel CDP and my Anthem AMP 1. None which I could have afforded new.

I believe it takes a lot of listening from people who have been down this path, listening to different systems and buying the best you can afford.

I always loose when I buy quickly and spur of the moment.

Back to the OP's question. As I have heard it here said before, cry once or cry twice.

buymesome

thuffman03 wrote: »

IMO there is a diminishing return on investment to a point. There is a very good example of this with the Carver Challenge. Bob Carver took his M1.0 $700 amp and made it sound like a $10k amp.

http://www.stereophile.com/features/the_carver_challenge/

Now everyone hears differently and what sounds good to you might not sound good to others. There is an emotional connection also. If you believe if something is better because it costs more than it will sound better to you.

So to say that the more you spend the better something will sound is subject to what sounds good to you.

Great article there

It makes me wana buy a carver amp after just reading it

thuffman03

heiney9 wrote: »

^^ I take it you were there so you know first hand. What was it like to be around all that press? When did you own the Silver 7's and when did you compare them to every TFM amp? Why did you sell the Silver 7's? Bet you wish you would have kept those. Do you still have the M1.0t you used for comparison?

H9

What is your problem? All I said was that I disagreed with him and why.

You are a jerk!

Systems

heiney9 wrote: »

I know of a particular amp designer who originally had a cubed heatsink chassis (heatsinks on all 4 sides) milled from a soild block of aluminium. Later he decided to use a more traditional rectangular chassis and cut the cost of the newer amp by 20%. Same design and a few upgraded parts, but essentially the same amp.

H9

IMO the orignal heat sink/chassis while functional was a tad fugly, I like the design for the newer version,which looks to me to be the same basic heat sink/chassis design used for the FW models that followed.

heiney9

Just pointing out that this famous encounter wasn't as successful as people today are lead to believe. Again if you read my earlier response I respect Bob, just feel that there are many who were there that day and felt wasn't as successful as all the hype surrounding the event, especially now many years later. That's all. I wasn't there either and I'm just sharing my opinion on that famous experiment based on what I've read; same as your basing your opinion based on what you've read.

H9

heiney9

GV#27 wrote: »

IMO the orignal heat sink/chassis while functional was a tad fugly, I like the design for the newer version,which looks to me to be the same basic chassis as used for the FW designs.

Me too! I never cared for the look of the "porcupine", many did though. Yes, in talking with him I found out mine was one of the last off the production line and they did in fact use the same chassis for the FW line.

steveinaz

I think the biggest mistake people make is thinking that they have to have high priced goods to enjoy the music. If that's the case, you're in it for all the wrong reasons.

F1nut

I'd like to touch on the Carver amp conversation. As much as some would like to believe, the Silver 7 tube amps sound nothing like the 7t SS version, nor any of the other Carver or Sunfire SS amps for that matter. IMO.

apphd

dkg999 wrote: »

......... It's really all about the enjoyment, and if you get that enjoyment out of a couple of hundred dollars of vintage gear, who is to say your enjoyment is any less than the person who spent many thousands of dollars to listen to the same LP, CD, tape, 8 track, etc.

heiney9 wrote: »

Exactly!

We all have a budget and for the most part we need to live within that budget. Just realize their is better gear out there, and yes, in most cases you get what you pay for and you are always compromising unless you have completely unlimited funds.

H9

+1 These should get posted in every "What is better" or What should I buy" thread.

jaxwired

Darn, I didn't get to even participate in my own thread all day.
Work...gotta love it...I'll play next time.

TECHNOKID

madmax wrote: »

I noticed someone earlier said something about saving up for gear. That is something I've never done. I don't want any real heart to go into a piece of gear because it could make it harder to tell yourself it sucks. I typically just put it on the card and figure out later how to pay it off. Not for everyone.
madmax

Your last sentence is the most important: "Not for everyone." I think budget is the primary goal and it should determined one's level of spending (therefore the quality of gear he acquires). Personally, I much prefer (and do enjoy :cool: ) mid-range gear (which I know I'll keep ) over high-end (which in the long run I might have to part with :eek: ). There are gear for each and every budget, as previously pointed out, knowledge and experience plays a big part of the picture. I will not wait to buy gear solely when I have the money but I'll make darn sure what I buy is paid within a month or so before I buy the next piece. Some I always remember; "The only time one starts from the top is when digging him self a hole!"

I think low to mid systems owners shouldn't be treathened and shouldn't try to diminish high end owners choices. 5K systems are low in the game since one could involved 10s of thousands... so what, might as well own what you can afford and just be happy for the proud owners of the high end systems. The fact that 5K systems sounds good for some of us, doesn't mean that higher $$$K spending is poor spending.

steveinaz wrote: »

I think the biggest mistake people make is thinking that they have to have high priced goods to enjoy the music. If that's the case, you're in it for all the wrong reasons.

I agree with you, enjoying the moment (with what you can actually afford) and improving as experience, knowledge and budget allows you is the best way to about the audio passion.

apphd wrote: »

+1 These should get posted in every "What is better" or What should I buy" thread.

This is what I deplore the most, someone's new, has a definite budget and people turning around bashing the modest gear they want to start with and trying to lead them into their expensive path which in some cases actually took them a few years to built. This comment isn't tied to CP, I see that on just about any audio or digital forums.

Of course, people should be discouraged to waste their hard earned money on marketting hype type gear like bose, mon$ter and most HTIB's so called packages. While some people can't afford or would be quite happy with HTIBs, there are better avenues than the typical crappy all in one 1000's of watts HTIBs. IE: SoundBars of often mix and matched HTIBs offered with previous year receivers (usually the best deals).

Sometime, trying to lead someone toward used quality gear or simply encourage the poster to buy one piece at a time with the goal of buying better while keeping consistant with their personal budget. The usual "what is better" is usually a cry from a novice simply asking "what is good", what is good should be specific to that person and doesn't always mean top dollar. I think Polk always worked and understood this fact, thus the reason for their vast choice at different prices. While we all respect Polk, even with Polk there are different ranges of budget gear and while CP is good marketting for the company, I believe the forum is also in fact a good way to educate us in order to get the BBB.

Cheers!
TK

BlueFox

I suspect the majority of people with expensive gear started with modest priced gear, and just kept upgrading because the upgrades sounded better.

lakesailor

Bottom line is that topology (aka design) power supply and build quality (including parts of course) are the three biggest factors that will influence the actual sound of a component. It is marketing that will put a price on that sound. Never confuse the first three points with the last one.

F1nut

BlueFox wrote: »

I suspect the majority of people with expensive gear started with modest priced gear, and just kept upgrading because the upgrades sounded better.

Bingo!

TECHNOKID

lakesailor wrote: »

Bottom line is that topology (aka design) power supply and build quality (including parts of course) are the three biggest factors that will influence the actual sound of a component. It is marketing that will put a price on that sound. Never confuse the first three points with the last one.

When talking about parts and built quality these days people should realize that most (even in the high end) comes from China anyway... I guess it is a matter of opinion then to claim quality. Maybe high end name but unless all genuine Norht american parts are used, the question is; is it really high end equipment considering the above? or is it high name with high end cosmetics and pricing? Simple food for tought...

Cheers!
TK

cnh

+1 from China....more and more is being manufactured here...every day..even more high end....as manufacturing knowledge and facilities improve...who can fault this process...sure I'd like it if there were more not less American manufacturing....but that's not completely within our control.

I also agree with F1nut and BlueFox's quote above.

cnh

reeltrouble1

jax,

Your going to have a chance to find out for yourself in the very near future.......believe it or not a big-time audio event is coming to Jacksonville Fl.........I will post up more in a seperate thread.

I also have an inside line on a much more intimate gathering coming soon in December being put on by Steve Davis and the Florida Audio Society near Daytona, cool gear like Koetsu and Oracle.....more details to come soon for Polkies who want to know on this one.

RT1

markmarc

F1nut wrote: »

I'd like to touch on the Carver amp conversation. As much as some would like to believe, the Silver 7 tube amps sound nothing like the 7t SS version, nor any of the other Carver or Sunfire SS amps for that matter. IMO.

Thank you F1.

jaxwired

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

jax,
Your going to have a chance to find out for yourself in the very near future.......believe it or not a big-time audio event is coming to Jacksonville Fl.........I will post up more in a seperate thread.

Is it this: http://www.axpona.com/

TECHNOKID

cnh wrote: »

+1 from China....more and more is being manufactured here...every day..even more high end....as manufacturing knowledge and facilities improve...who can fault this process...sure I'd like it if there were more not less American manufacturing....but that's not completely within our control.

I also agree with F1nut and BlueFox's quote above.

cnh

I also agree with their comments (F1 and BlueFox), that is the only way to go about it. As far as the China comment, it is met as food for tought. This has been seen in the past with Japan, Mexico and Korea to name a few examples. When the new players get involved in the game the quality drastically drops until they get their acts together (Japan is a good example when talking about electronics and cars while Korea is a good one when talking about cars). High end audio is not getting away from sharing the low end China parts so can we still really call high end aside from brand name and still reaping the glory from long past days of high quality? For example (questions to owners) are the newer high end production (using mossfets) can honestly be compared to vintage high end amps (using the legendary T03 casing transistors)? From experience, I know most modern SS and surface mount technologies are not comparable in quality and reliability as their predecessor (just like SS never really came close to the HQ of tubes). With countries like China over this that are totally out of control of the typical QC that was originally established. In one simple question; Could today's high end simply be the low end of yesterday?

Cheers!
TK

heiney9

TECHNOKID wrote: »

In one simple question; Could today's high end simply be the low end of yesterday?

Cheers!
TK

No...............but then your definition of 'high end' and my definition probably aren't the same.

You really believe that compaines like BAT, Pass, McIntosh, Krell, Musical Fidelity, Classe, Belles, Bel Canto, Bryston and many other premium brands are to be considered the same as yesterday's low end?

I think I get your point with some of the higher $$ Chinese designed offerings but I can assure you the premium higher end brands designed in the USA don't suffer from cheap parts or build and are certainly not yesterday's low end and sound infinitly better than yesterday's stuff.

H9