Expensive audio products...worth it?

jaxwired

Ever notice how many HiFi manufacturer's advertisements make statements like "better than competitors costing several times the price"? You might say this is just marketing hype, but I suspect that many of the manufactures actually believe it to be true.

I also see this type of statement frequently in audio product reviews. So many reviewers also often find products that are competitive with much more expensive offerings from other manufacturers.

So, if there's any truth to these claims, there must be a boat load of expensive products that are poor value for money.

pearsall001

Only your wallet & ears can make that decision. But bear in mind that as you move up the audio chain a hugh part of the expense is in the "cosmetics" of the gear. It's very expensive to make them look pretty.

Also, as technology advances the trickle down effect comes into play. The gap is closing between the expensive gear & the not so expensive gear. To the point that you have to scratch your head sometimes wonder why brand X costs $$$$$ & brand Y costs $$ & yet you can't perceive any sonic difference. Whatever makes you happy is all that counts.

tonyb

Like all products,marketing borders on down right lieing.And yes,their sure are a boat load of expensive products that don't measure up. Thats why you join audio boards,cruise other ones,pay attention to the products people feel are worth their value. Some are even under valued and give a great bang for your buck. Like Polk.

apphd

The build quality comes into play sometimes as well. A $ product may perform as well as a $$$ product, but for how long? Some products will use more expensive materials and manufacturing processes, which may not affect SQ at all. But when you handle it there is just no denying it is much better built. This also may not really improve reliability at all but perception is that it will.

TroyD

It's a subjective thing....for those that have heard RT1's Rabbit Hole gear....absolutely no question the answer is yes.

BDT

Hawkeye

Prove it to yourself. Go to a high end dealer with your favorite music and being totally honest with yourself, compare the equipment. If the sound is as good as what you have now, then your correct. If the sound is better, you have your answer.

Gordon

thuffman03

IMO there is a diminishing return on investment to a point. There is a very good example of this with the Carver Challenge. Bob Carver took his M1.0 $700 amp and made it sound like a $10k amp.

http://www.stereophile.com/features/the_carver_challenge/

Now everyone hears differently and what sounds good to you might not sound good to others. There is an emotional connection also. If you believe if something is better because it costs more than it will sound better to you.

So to say that the more you spend the better something will sound is subject to what sounds good to you.

heiney9

I love that Carver link if you read between the lines it wasn't as successful as many over the years have lead other's to believe. I have a lot of respect for Bob Carver.........but that whole exercise make me chuckle.

H9

shack

My experience is that the so called "giant killers"...are anything but. They may be good value for what they are...but no more...no less. Regardless of what you might think...really good, high end, expensive gear is purchased for what it delivers (for the most part). Not status...not eye candy...not name dropping...but because it offers (and delivers) the buyer a level of performance they seek.

This was an ongoing dicussion over the weekend. Some are happy with gear that delivers 95% (subjective) of the performance that TOL gear delivers. If they can live with that fine. But there are those that strive to get the last level of of performance, sound, whatever...and are willing to spend to get the gear that will take them to that level. Even then...what succeeds for some doesn't work for others.

Those that scoff at anyone who purchases high end gear, cables, tweeks, etc...just don't get it IMO. While I may not CHOOSE to take that path...it is no less valid just because I don't. And I never berate anyone for what they do/spend/try in this hobby...EXCEPT...for those who try and tell us that something does not matter and that we should trust them to tell us what is or is not valid. This is such a subjective hobby that the only way to know...is to try it...and then decide what works for YOU!

polkatese

Isn't the definition of "Expensive" is subjective in nature and it means different thing to different people? Unless we are talking about gears priced north of $5000 MSRP (as far as my own definition of expensive)?

Hawkeye

The Carver challenge is an interesting read. But is the $700 amp still a $700 amp after all the new bits and pieces are factored in? What about the 48 hours of labor which are not factored into the equation.

Shack made an interesting point. It is what we expect from the gear. I expect it to work flawlessly out of the box. I expect it to continue to perform for many years. I expect it to hold it's value over time. Finally, I expect to be able to give it to one of my children as a heirloom to enjoy.

Customer service is great, but a DOA piece is still a DOA piece and the resulting hassle of sending an item back for repair and being without music is not a risk I'm willing to take.

Gordon

shack

polkatese wrote:

Isn't the definition of "Expensive" is subjective in nature and it means different thing to different people?

Yes.

polkatese wrote:

Unless we are talking about gears priced north of $5000 MSRP (as far as my own definition of expensive)?

There are those that would consider $5,000 ± to be "mid-level". Just prove's your first statement I guess.

zombie boy 2000

I'm with Polkatese on this one. I know people that make disgusting amounts of money that would consider Polk's entry line to be "expensive" - at least, relative to whatever it is they are trying to accomplish. More than likely, five different sounds from five different speakers. All of it enjoyed upon a diamond-encrusted throne while eating fistfuls of rubies.

shack

Hawkeye wrote:

Shack made an interesting point. It is what we expect from the gear. I expect it to work flawlessly out of the box. I expect it to continue to perform for many years. I expect it to hold it's value over time. Finally, I expect to be able to give it to one of my children as a heirloom to enjoy.

Interesting...not a single word about what you expected it to SOUND like.

concealer404

I feel like i can't comment here... since i thought my XPA-2 was expensive.

Oh crap. That WORD. Well, it's certainly relevant in this thread for many reasons. It WAS VERY expensive.

Hawkeye

shack wrote: »

Interesting...not a single word about what you expected it to SOUND like.

I think that goes without saying it, otherwise I would not have purchased it:D

Gordon

dkg999

Expensive gear (whatever that is in your perspective) does usually raise the quality of music reproduction. It is however, IMHO, about listening to music, on the hi-fi. Like Shack, I have no problem with those that spend lots of money on audio/HT gear. It's really all about the enjoyment, and if you get that enjoyment out of a couple of hundred dollars of vintage gear, who is to say your enjoyment is any less than the person who spent many thousands of dollars to listen to the same LP, CD, tape, 8 track, etc.

heiney9

dkg999 wrote: »

Expensive gear (whatever that is in your perspective) does usually raise the quality of music reproduction. It is however, IMHO, about listening to music, on the hi-fi. Like Shack, I have no problem with those that spend lots of money on audio/HT gear. It's really all about the enjoyment, and if you get that enjoyment out of a couple of hundred dollars of vintage gear, who is to say your enjoyment is any less than the person who spent many thousands of dollars to listen to the same LP, CD, tape, 8 track, etc.

Exactly!

And only when someone states their couple hundred dollar amp or pre-amp or cdp or whatever can keep up with and out perfrom a several thousand dollar piece do the verbal fights start. Or things like multiple hundred or thousand dollar cables don;t matter, etc.

I'm sure people that own entry level rigs enjoy the music just as much as those who own $5-10K+ rigs. But when the budget rig owners start telling the other owners they could get the same sound for thousands less..........all the subjectivity goes out of the room and then the heated, and most times uninformed, debate starts.

We all have a budget and for the most part we need to live within that budget. Just realize their is better gear out there, and yes, in most cases you get what you pay for and you are always compromising unless you have completely unlimited funds.

H9

treitz3

I have heard $125,000.00 systems and quarter of a million dollar systems that sounded rather bad to not what I would consider desirable. On the flip side, I have heard modest systems that completely blew my socks off. I think synergy is more important than cost when it comes to audio reproduction .

Thing is, when you can find that synergy within a system...it's priceless.

concealer404

treitz3 wrote: »

I have heard $125,000.00 systems and quarter of a million dollar systems that sounded rather bad to not what I would consider desirable. On the flip side, I have heard modest systems that completely blew my socks off. I think synergy is more important than cost when it comes to audio reproduction .

Thing is, when you can find that synergy within a system...it's priceless.

Mmmm.... synergy. It's a ****. But i do so love that ****.

heiney9

Cost is NOT the most important issue.............but do realize that to achieve certain audio goals you can't be limited by cost either. There is a relationship between cost and peformance; it's just not the only factor or the most important factor.

There is no substutuite for experience in this hobby...................or in any hobby really. I think of other hobbies I've had or have and the most important factor is experience. It helps make the decisions, and experience comes over time.

I could give a person who has never heard anything but a Bose system and an experienced hi-fi hobbiest $10K to build a system. I'd bet the experienced hifi person would build a better system for less than $10K than the person who's only audio experience is Bose. My guess is the Bose person would more than likely run out and get the most expensive gear $10K would buy. That doesn;t mean it will sound the best. SYNERGY and experience will trumph everytime

steveinaz

I read an article recently at Stereophile that stated 30-40% of the expense of a component, is the chasis/faceplate/knobs/lighting, etc--nothing related to the actual circuits/functioning of the equipment. Interesting.

SCompRacer

jaxwired wrote: »

So, if there's any truth to these claims, there must be a boat load of expensive products that are poor value for money.

Yes you can find gear that has very high performance for the dollar from smaller manufacturers. They are small companies, with less mouths to feed. The other side of the coin is will I be able to have my gear serviced if something should happen to the head guy.

polkatese

heiney9 wrote: »

I'm sure people that own entry level rigs enjoy the music just as much as those who own $5-10K+ rigs. But when the budget rig owners start telling the other owners they could get the same sound for thousands less..........all the subjectivity goes out of the room and then the heated, and most times uninformed, debate starts.
H9

hear hear!

Anything Subjective is subject to a set of subjective believes that will prevail within one's own realm regardless of what others subjectively believe.

treitz3

steveinaz wrote: »

I read an article recently at Stereophile that stated 30-40% of the expense of a component, is the chasis/faceplate/knobs/lighting, etc--nothing related to the actual circuits/functioning of the equipment. Interesting.

Crap, I feel cheated then. My Dodd MLP has a wood chassis, knobs and only 1 LED. :eek:

concealer404

heiney9 wrote: »

Cost is NOT the most important issue.............but do realize that to achieve certain audio goals you can't be limited by cost either. There is a relationship between cost and peformance; it's just not the only factor or the most important factor.

There is no substutuite for experience in this hobby...................or in any hobby really. I think of other hobbies I've had or have and the most important factor is experience. It helps make the decisions, and experience comes over time.

I could give a person who has never heard anything but a Bose system and an experienced hi-fi hobbiest $10K to buy a system. I'd bet the experienced hifi person would build a better system for less than $10K than the person who's only audio experience is Bose.

I personally like trying to get as close as i can on a budget of peanuts. It's a challenge, and i love to tinker and try to get as much gear as possible through my rig, even if none of it is TRULY considered "high end."

I have less in my entire rig than a lot of people will spend on cables alone, and nobody has yet told me that it sounded bad.

Of course, i'm not going to sit here and say that it'll go toe to toe with even 20% of the setups on this site. It's lacking money and experience sunk into it.


As for the original question? Yes. Worth it. I'd heard some high end stuff that puts me to shame. It'd be worth it to me. If i could afford it.

CoolJazz

concealer404 wrote: »

It'd be worth it to me. If i could afford it.

Nominated as the quote of all time!!!

madmax

I'm always up to trying to make a great system out of giant killers, junk, odd stuff. It can easily be done for peanuts. So what if it doesn't sound perfect. To get better costs money. If you have it, fine. If you don't then you have very little choice other than to give up something else. As a friend once told me: "You can have anything you want, just not everything you want".
madmax

Hawkeye

concealer404, Never be ashamed of what you have or don't have in the way of audio. There are too many other important things in life!

I was on a budget for many years of my life when it came to audio. Raising kids and providing a roof over their heads was of more importance to me. Once my children were on their own and their impact on the household budget decreased, it never ends totally, by the way:D there was more disposable income available.

I didn't wake up one day and decide I'm going to spend X amount of dollars. I know what I liked and saved to get it. I haven't rolled as many pieces as some here since I didn't want to get on that merry go round. In my system, I'm done. It makes me happy and that is all that matters.

Gordon

heiney9

steveinaz wrote: »

I read an article recently at Stereophile that stated 30-40% of the expense of a component, is the chasis/faceplate/knobs/lighting, etc--nothing related to the actual circuits/functioning of the equipment. Interesting.

This can be expecially true for amps.

A true class A power amp of decent wattage needs a huge transformer and the chassis and heatsinks make it very expensive especially if they are low production runs of say <1000 pieces.


I know of a particular amp designer who originally had a cubed heatsink chassis (heatsinks on all 4 sides) milled from a soild block of aluminium. Later he decided to use a more traditional rectangular chassis and cut the cost of the newer amp by 20%. Same design and a few upgraded parts, but essentially the same amp.

H9

concealer404

Hawkeye wrote: »

concealer404, Never be ashamed of what you have or don't have in the way of audio. There are too many other important things in life!

I was on a budget for many years of my life when it came to audio. Raising kids and providing a roof over their heads was of more importance to me. Once my children were on their own and their impact on the household budget decreased, it never ends totally, by the way:D there was more disposable income available.

I didn't wake up one day and decide I'm going to spend X amount of dollars. I know what I liked and saved to get it. I haven't rolled as many pieces as some here since I didn't want to get on that merry go round. In my system, I'm done. It makes me happy and that is all that matters.

Gordon

Oh i'm not ashamed of it at all. I'm actually pretty proud of what i've accomplished for so little. The best part about it is, i don't get mad if something blows, or if i try something and it sounds horrible, i just move it out, and try something else. At this stage in the game, if i try something and it sounds bad, i'll be able to resell it for at least the same money i purchased it for.

My only REAL complaint is that i seem to have drained a lot of the cool stuff out of my area. I'm going to have to start making bi-weekly trips to Chicago or something.