Please explain.....

anhchungdoan

I have the Pio SC05 and the following: BDP95fd, BDP51fd, DVD58ai and all speakers & sub are Def Tech's. All HDMI cables are from Monoprice. No analog RCA cables.

Recently I bought the Denon DV 2500 BTI from Vann's @ a give away price.
What confused me was the sound of the Denon DV 2500 BTCI and the Pio BDPs were not the same going thru the PIO SC05.

I have played back and forth a few times the " I have no kick against modern jazz " CD with the DV 2500 BTCI and the Pio BDP95 then the BDP51fd but the sound produced still not identical ( same SPL as you will ask).

The DV 2500 BTCI soundstage is wider and softer with less treble while the Pio BDP is a bit brighter and got a little more " attack" or "punch" in the mid-bass and the treble is slighter cleaner and clearer.

This should not be the case since as dumb as I am with new technology, I believe with HDMI, we are only using binary 00s/ 01s so there should not be any difference in the sound produced by the same Pio SC05 ( same Dac). This is not my imagination . Would some please tell me what happens here ?

Ricardo

Maybe you just discovered that not all 0's and 1's are equal.

anhchungdoan

Tell me more. I have been an old fashion guy who does not like to mess with the digital gear. I like to learn so please elaborate.

Ricardo

There are $100 transports and there are $20,000 transports. I can't explain why there are differences, but for sure there's people that believe there are differences, and even say they can hear the differences. One of those endless debates.

heiney9

A difference in transports at this level of $$$ will not cause the differences you are perceiving. My guess is you have some sort of switching/hook up issue which isn't allowing for both to playback thru the Pioneer SC05 dac's.

What you are hearing are the difference's between the (2) players internal dacs. Check your switching and connections. That's where i'd start.

H9

anhchungdoan

heiney9 wrote: »

A difference in transports at this level of $$$ will not cause the differences you are perceiving. My guess is you have some sort of switching/hook up issue which isn't allowing for both to playback thru the Pioneer SC05 dac's.

What you are hearing are the difference's between the (2) players internal dacs. Check your switching and connections. That's where i'd start.

H9

All my BDPs are using as transports only thru HDMI connections. The Pio sc 05 DAC is the Wolfson DAC. There is no other switching device.

The only thing I can thing abt is the PIO sc05 and the PIO BBPs have the PQLS control and the Denon 2500 BTCI doesn't. I will try again tonight w/o the PQLS control on the PIO BDPs , that may answer my question. Hopefully.

anhchungdoan

Ricardo wrote: »

There are $100 transports and there are $20,000 transports. I can't explain why there are differences, but for sure there's people that believe there are differences, and even say they can hear the differences. One of those endless debates.

That's fair enough answer. I 'll take it. Thank you.

heiney9

anhchungdoan wrote: »

All my BDPs are using as transports only thru HDMI connections. The Pio sc 05 DAC is the Wolfson DAC. There is no other switching device.

The only thing I can thing abt is the PIO sc05 and the PIO BBPs have the PQLS control and the Denon 2500 BTCI doesn't. I will try again tonight w/o the PQLS control on the PIO BDPs , that may answer my question. Hopefully.

If there is no switching device then how do you switch between the 2 players for an A/B comparison? Also I have no clue what all the acronyms mean?????

BBP; PQLS; BTCI.

Also while you accept Ricardo's answer, at the level you're talking your (2) transports will not make an audible difference.............especially the one you are claiming to hear.

anhchungdoan

All the Pio BDPs go to HDMI 1,2,3 ports on the SC05 and the Denon 2500 BTCI goes to HDMI port 4. You think that may be the issue? I have heard that the 1st port get more "electric dynamic" than the 4 port but I am not sure so good point though. I may have the HDMI cables switched around to different order this week-end and see what the result is.

Ricardo

heiney9 wrote: »

A difference in transports at this level of $$$ will not cause the differences you are perceiving.

That is just your opinion.

anhchungdoan

heiney9 wrote: »

If there is no switching device then how do you switch between the 2 players for an A/B comparison? Also I have no clue what all the acronyms mean?????

BBP; PQLS; BTCI.

Also while you accept Ricardo's answer, at the level you're talking your (2) transports will not make an audible difference.............especially the one you are claiming to hear.

Well, I have to accept Ricardo's answer based on the fact maybe the expensive transport may sound difference than the less expensive one. Okay, the 2500 BTCI tranpsort is at $ 288.00 ( MSRP $899.00) the Pio is at $149.00 BDP Player not a decicated transport ( MSRP $599.00)

Still logically and technically, they should sound the same thru the same AVR.

Pio SC05 has the PQLS feature (jitter control plus some other technical feature for better SQ) ONLY when to use with PIO Bluray player.

Pio bluray come with these model such as BDP95fd, BDP51fd ( I guess BDP stands for Bluray Player) The Denon 2500 BTCI ( I guess it stands for Bluray Tranpsort Customer Intallation). That's as far as I am learning.

heiney9

Ricardo wrote: »

That is just your opinion.

So, in your opinon, one should be able to hear a significant difference between two BDp transports if one transport retails for $300 more? Never mind that it's being routed through a receiver.

Interesting.........................sounds like arguing for the sake of arguing .

You have your wooden spoon out again Ricardo.

H9

anhchungdoan

heiney9 wrote: »

So, in your opinon, one should be able to hear a significant difference between two BDp transports if one transport retails for $300 more? Never mind that it's being routed through a receiver.

Interesting.........................sounds like arguing for the sake of arguing .

You have your wooden spoon out again Ricardo.

H9

This is what I have in mind, A dedicated transport may provide the simple signal path while the Blu-ray Player has all kind of crap circuits within itself ( analogue D/A for mutichannel build-in decoder etc...) Again, it just a guess.

I love the Denon transport smoother vocal and wide soundsatge ( DK sounds not quite but pretty close to my analogue system) I love the Pio Blu-ray Player for it sizzling cymbals, clean and crisp high and punch in the mid-bass.

Is it just an illusion or is it reality? I cannot answer that but "it" is there.

heiney9

You're not comparing apples to apples. If you are using the same dac's then they are both acting as transports and all the "crap circuits" you call them in the Pioneer BDp will be bypassed.

Until you can be 100% assured both are being used as a transport and only using the dac processing of your AVR you can only make guesses and assumptions. So my answer is illusion.

Of course there will be differences in sound between the (2) players if they stand "alone" on their own with their own internals. Both hooked up thru your AVR's dac's you should not hear a difference.

Anyways...........I've said what I had to say, enjoy however you choose to listen to your 2 players.

H9

Ricardo

heiney9 wrote: »

Interesting.........................sounds like arguing for the sake of arguing .

How dare you. I've NEVER done such a thing.

anhchungdoan

heiney9 wrote: »

You're not comparing apples to apples. If you are using the same dac's then they are both acting as transports and all the "crap circuits" you call them in the Pioneer BDp will be bypassed.

Until you can be 100% assured both are being used as a transport and only using the dac processing of your AVR you can only make guesses and assumptions. So my answer is illusion.

Of course there will be differences in sound between the (2) players if they stand "alone" on their own with their own internals. Both hooked up thru your AVR's dac's you should not hear a difference.

Anyways...........I've said what I had to say, enjoy however you choose to listen to your 2 players.

H9

I know what you are saying. 10/4, brother but I am comparing apple with apple since in my H/T system , I use ONLY HDMIs out from these Pio Blu-ray players and the Denon Blu-ray transport.

I am surprise at what I've heard not day and night but certainly different type of sound thru the same AVR.

heiney9

anhchungdoan wrote: »

I know what you are saying. 10/4, brother but I am comparing apple with apple since in my H/T system , I use ONLY HDMIs out from these Pio Blu-ray players and the Denon Blu-ray transport.

I am surprise at what I've heard not day and night but certainly different type of sound thru the same AVR.

Ok, I must be missing something I guess between the beginning of this thread and now you've tested all your connections from both players to the AVR and have determined they are exact for both as well as all the switching in your AVR.

So now you feel you aren;t confused and have no issue's, and feel the Denon is a lot better sounding because it's a better transport. :rolleyes:

H9

LessisNevermore

anhchungdoan, humor me, if you will......

Swap the HDMI cables on the transports, and see if there is any change. Might be an 'iffy' cable. I know...1's and 0's and all that, just try it and see if we can narrow this down further.

tonyb

Man,what the hell are we saying here? All gear should sound the same played through an AVR ? Plenty of variables that will affect the SQ....LIKE build quality,power supply,transports, settings,cables, and on and on. Am I missing something here or what?

heiney9

No you're missing the entire point.................and yes, I know this thread is clear as mud. If you use the same AVR dac with the same cableing, in the same rig with the same music and your players are very similar price points........you shouldn;t hear a real discernable difference. The OP says it's a lot different.............and you're right something has to be differnent.

With my external dac at home, all other things being equal, i can hook up transport after transport after Squeezebox, after Dvdp and I can't hear a difference. But it's the same cable, same dac, same level, same gear, same music, same room, same time of day, etc.....

That's my only point. He hears a marked difference so something in his switching or the way he has things wired isn't allowing him to use the dac's in his AVR for both players..........hence the difference in sound. he's under the impression that they are BOTH running thru the dac's in his avr and I am saying that's not likely since he hears such a difference.

tonyb

Yeah,I got the whole dac thing,and your answer is probably the most likely,but still,even with gear in the same price point,there should be some difference,not as profound as the OP claims,but still some.

heiney9

tonyb wrote: »

Yeah,I got the whole dac thing,and your answer is probably the most likely,but still,even with gear in the same price point,there should be some difference,not as profound as the OP claims,but still some.

Used just as a transport...............no I don;t believe so. In a player the dac, analog section and the power supply are where the differences are until you hit uber $$$ players with better transport isolation and materials, etc.

H9

tonyb

heiney9 wrote: »

Used just as a transport...............no I don;t believe so. In a player the dac, analog section and the power supply are where the differences are until you hit uber $$$ players with better transport isolation and materials, etc.

H9

Agree....partially. Even with gear in the same price point with similiar guts,most,not all,manufacturers have a sound to them dependant on that brand. Like a Cary cdp to a MF cdp,similiar,but different,and in the same price point. Now if your talking wallmart stuff,then yeah,I can go lock step with the idea. Though I am not familiar with his gear,it may be mass produced gear that for the most part,should sound similiar,thus your answer.

heiney9

Still missing my point............the OP isn't using the guts of either of these (supposedly) he's running the RAW digital information thru the AVR so there is nothing that is dependant on the particular manufacturer's sound. The only thing different (according to the OP) is the player's transport...........and all I'm saying is the transports in each of his units aren't different enough to hear a difference

buymesome

I see you took the plunge with the sexy denon, good move buddy

Dont you think the sound on bluray is above par? I do

Anyways I did notice and improvement on cd's and I kinda boiled it down to the internal isolated pcb's and the quality of the heavy duty magneticly shielded triple enclosure . But then again it may be the vibration free hybrid drive mechanism

Disc Jockey

heiney9 wrote: »

Still missing my point............the OP isn't using the guts of either of these (supposedly) he's running the RAW digital information thru the AVR so there is nothing that is dependant on the particular manufacturer's sound. The only thing different (according to the OP) is the player's transport...........and all I'm saying is the transports in each of his units aren't different enough to hear a difference

The only other thing that may be in play here is the PQLS of the Pios. That's simply a clock sync system to reduce jitter and it would only be active with the Pio players. I've never demoed any players with PQLS but everything I've read said that it's a fairly subtle improvement, so it may not be the whole explanation either.

WilliamM2

How did you insure that they are all playing at the same SPL? If you have some test tones you could take a reading at the speaker terminals with a multi-meter to determine if there is a difference there. SPL meters are not accurate enough, and different players can have different output levels, even with HDMI.

anhchungdoan

heiney9 wrote: »

Ok, I must be missing something I guess between the beginning of this thread and now you've tested all your connections from both players to the AVR and have determined they are exact for both as well as all the switching in your AVR.

So now you feel you aren;t confused and have no issue's, and feel the Denon is a lot better sounding because it's a better transport. :rolleyes:

H9

No, I cannot say the Denon transport is better. Its mid-range is softer and fuller which I can say it's better than the Pio but the Denon is not better in the HI and the Low. The Pio gets more treble and little more punch in the low-end.

anhchungdoan

buymesome wrote: »

I see you took the plunge with the sexy denon, good move buddy

Dont you think the sound on bluray is above par? I do

Anyways I did notice and improvement on cd's and I kinda boiled it down to the internal isolated pcb's and the quality of the heavy duty magneticly shielded triple enclosure . But then again it may be the vibration free hybrid drive mechanism

Yes, brother. I was kind of shy away from Chinese made gear but the savings is so huge, I cannot resist.

Sexy? We are not talking abt Kama Sutra here, aren't we? It's built like a rock ( 20lbs) . I like to use the pure audio mode when all the display lights are off. Then it looks as good as Krell 's or Bryston's stuff.

Thank you for motivating me to take a chance on this transport.

anhchungdoan

LessisNevermore wrote: »

anhchungdoan, humor me, if you will......

Swap the HDMI cables on the transports, and see if there is any change. Might be an 'iffy' cable. I know...1's and 0's and all that, just try it and see if we can narrow this down further.

I will do that tomorrow and report back.
1. Switch the HDMI cables.
2. Switch the HDMI cables to different HDMI ports.
3. Turn off the pure audio mode on the Denon.
4. Turn off the PQLS control on the Pio.

Hopefully, they both will be sound pretty much the same.
This is unscientific and I need to know why.

sTiLlLeArNiNg

I thought someone said that ALL piece's of equipment each have their own specific/signature sound, regardless of price? As stoopid as i are i would have to agree

Are all of your HDMI cable's the same? I would try switching the HDMI's around and just run the player's in as straight/basic mode as possible to see if that account's for any difference's.