Logitech Sqeezebox Duet

LuSh

Hello,

Having had some issues with my Meitner transport I've investigated the idea of something new. I spoke with someone who just recently purchased a Logitech device and insists he'd never go back. Having browsed through various forums I've come to the conclusion of two things:

1. I really have been in the dark about streaming digital media.

2. Not only will life be easier storing music on a PC it might actually sound better as well.

I've had a chance to talk to people who I trust and every one of them has said a PC + Streaming device + external DAC will sound better then a stand alone CD player. One person said a simple Cambridge DAC magic + Mac mini trounced a McIntosh stand alone player at $3500.

Any here using a streaming PC setup? If so how does it compare to your older CD transport setup?

heiney9

I have been using the squeezebox thru a dac for about a year. I can't tell a difference between it and a transport using my DAC. I rip everything in FLAC using auto tag or making my own tags on a PC.

This is due out before the end of the year and really has a much better display.

http://www.logitechsqueezebox.com/products/squeezebox-touch.html

It works better than advertised, it's easy to set up and the convenience factor is simply off the charts...........not to mention about 5000 free radio stations you can listen to from all over the world. Play lists, etc.

As well as stream music from the Live Music Archive, etc.

This is the best thing I have added to my system since the outboard DAC.

I will never go back to a cdp or transport. I do have my DVDp hooked thru my dac on the off chance I need to listen to a disc, but it takes about 5-7 minutes to rip to the pc for playback.

H9

Face

I use one in my 2 channel rig. If you don't use FLAC files, there will sometimes be a lag between songs. Otherwise, it works great and using my Marantz SA-15S2 as a DAC, people would never guess that they're listening to streaming music.

dbaldus

Face wrote: »

I use one in my 2 channel rig. If you don't use FLAC files, there will sometimes be a lag between songs. Otherwise, it works great and using my Marantz SA-15S2 as a DAC, people would never guess that they're listening to streaming music.

If you DON'T use FLAC files? What type of files do you use for lossless audio if you aren't using FLAC?

Just curious as I figured there would be a lag if you WERE using FLAC files just because they are larger files than mp3s...

Face

My library is a mix of FLAC, Windows Lossless, AIFF, and WAV/PCM. No MP3's here.

heiney9

I only use FLAC, but 50% of my 600-700 bootlegs are mp3...........but I don't listen to those on the main rig only on the office rig, so they aren't part of my Squeeze Box library even though they are on my PC.

I use Media Monkey to listen to the same music files on the office rig.

sucks2beme

Much better display, although I cringed when they decribed it.
They used the phrase "it makes a stylish addition to any stereo system."
Stylish? Who here buys "stylish" gear?
I'm sure it sounds just fine, but that marketing term doesn't do
crap for me.:D

I have good luck with a cheap kit DAC and a pc with FLAC.
If my son ever finishes college, a real quality DAC is on my short list.

fatchowmein

dbaldus wrote: »

If you DON'T use FLAC files? What type of files do you use for lossless audio if you aren't using FLAC?

Just curious as I figured there would be a lag if you WERE using FLAC files just because they are larger files than mp3s...

I have the Duet and the Classic. All of my music is in Apple Lossless (m4a) but I've tested FLAC, WAV, and WMA Lossless (I don't do lossful) and have never had issues with lag time including playback of Anne-Sophie Mutter's Gubaidulina In Tempus Praesens (m4a) which weighs in at 143MB (track #7 from Bach Violin Concertos & Gubaidulina In Tempus Praesens) nor do I notice lag time between songs on that album (16MB - 143MB).

Only reason I use m4a is because my wife is an iPod junky and I don't want to reimage them to play flac otherwise I would just stick with flac and get a flac compatible player. I don't want to keep both flac and m4a versions on my file server either.

phipiper10

I think this is what I've been waiting for. Looks like a nice alternative to my Onkyo which hooks up to the pc via cat 5 and works as a server now but the software is buggy and also no HDMI on the reciever. It's ok for now since I only have one HDMI input for my tv. I HOPE to change this!.

reeltrouble1

Lush......OMG.

well, even reeeely old hardcore guys like me know the beat goes on, the thing is, I cannot bear the thought of a PC in my 2-channel room, I do not have any sort of electronic video monitor device in my music room, I look at/use the damm things all day long, the last thing I want to see when I get home and settle into my chair to listen to the Rig is another damm computer, I read that USB transfer is not yet acceptable to any sort of audiophile standard, only firewire, all that said, I do not mind changing a CD or Vinyl at all, I listen to the album and then the next one, gives me a reason to get my old bones up and out of the chair before they get to creeky and I get stove up. Now if they can produce some kind of thing that actually sounds better....., of course I use some pretty nice gear in that Rabbit Rig, so I have my doubts....

but maybe someday......who knows.

Edit...oh yea, and it just bothers me that FLAC and WAV are not actually totally uncompressed.

RT1

steveinaz

I've been considering a squeezebox as well.

Streaming gurus, what's your favorite CD ripping and cataloging software?

tryrrthg

reeltrouble1 wrote: »

Lush......OMG.

well, even reeeely old hardcore guys like me know the beat goes on, the thing is, I cannot bear the thought of a PC in my 2-channel room, I do not have any sort of electronic video monitor device in my music room, I look at/use the damm things all day long, the last thing I want to see when I get home and settle into my chair to listen to the Rig is another damm computer, I read that USB transfer is not yet acceptable to any sort of audiophile standard, only firewire, all that said, I do not mind changing a CD or Vinyl at all, I listen to the album and then the next one, gives me a reason to get my old bones up and out of the chair before they get to creeky and I get stove up. Now if they can produce some kind of thing that actually sounds better....., of course I use some pretty nice gear in that Rabbit Rig, so I have my doubts....

but maybe someday......who knows.

Edit...oh yea, and it just bothers me that FLAC and WAV are not actually totally uncompressed.

RT1

With the Squeezebox you don't have to put a computer in your 2 channel room. You navigate through the music using the squeezebox. You don't even have to look at the computer screen. EDIT: (except for ripping the music to the computer)

WAV files are uncompressed exact copies of the original file (assuming you use a nice ripping software such as Exact Audio Copy). Hard drives and storage space are cheap so I don't see the need to rip to FLAC.

Having said that. I LOVE my squeezebox and don't think I'll ever go back to a stand alone CD player unless I suddenly get rich and can afford uber-nice gear.

sucks2beme

steveinaz wrote: »

I've been considering a squeezebox as well.

Streaming gurus, what's your favorite CD ripping and cataloging software?

EAC exact audio copy will read and create tags from an internet database.
The only Cd not in the database so far- AM Ramblers.
That's about as obscure as it gets(local Texas band).
It then copys it to your hard drive in the format you set up(FLAC in my case)
and checks for errors. It will try re-reading the disc if it sees errors, and will slow
down the read until it works. If it can't copy it, there's a problem.
I've got some CD's from the early days that seem to be a problem.
They also don't play in some CDP's. No scratches, just something squirrely in
the way they were made. Anything made after 1986 seems to be ok.

reeltrouble1

tryrrthg wrote: »

don't think I'll ever go back to a stand alone CD player unless I suddenly get rich and can afford uber-nice gear.

Well I ain't sayin but I'm just sayin................tryrr.....investigate my writings concerning the Theory of Necesscaties...:D

I suppose the fact that I am even talking about one these shows a shift in my paradigm, I am quite sure though that I read recently that FLAC and WAV do not actually include all the information just that what was dropped was not significant, I will see if I can find the article as I just browsed it not being a server guy.

RT1

Pauly

Stream via Modded Xbox and have no issues. In the process of converting everything to higher quality. I have no issues of MP3 at 320. Its the lower stuff that sounds **** from time to time. Nothing beats an orig CD to me.

EAC is the way to go IMO for ripping


Pauly

Big Dawg

I've recently started using a classic Squeezebox through an Adcom GDA-600 DAC. I use Exact Audio Copy to rip FLAC files. The file size of the FLACs is definitely smaller than the original file, so I'd assume that there must be some loss of data.

I've listened to the same recording with my DVD player compared to the Squeezebox. To my ears, the CD through the DAC sounds better than the FLAC via Squeezebox through the same DAC. I haven't yet decided if I'm just hearing a slightly different volume level, or if I'm truly hearing less music, but I think that I hear slightly less dynamic music.

The Squeezebox is wonderfully convenient and really cool, though...

Gaara

steveinaz wrote: »

I've been considering a squeezebox as well.

Streaming gurus, what's your favorite CD ripping and cataloging software?

Exact Audio Copy in Secure Mode is most common, ripping into FLAC.

Big Dawg, there is no data loss, hence the name Free Losless Audio Codec. Think about zipping a file, its smaller...but did you lose any data? No.

sucks2beme

Big Dawg wrote: »

I've recently started using a classic Squeezebox through an Adcom GDA-600 DAC. I use Exact Audio Copy to rip FLAC files. The file size of the FLACs is definitely smaller than the original file, so I'd assume that there must be some loss of data.

I've listened to the same recording with my DVD player compared to the Squeezebox. To my ears, the CD through the DAC sounds better than the FLAC via Squeezebox through the same DAC. I haven't yet decided if I'm just hearing a slightly different volume level, or if I'm truly hearing less music, but I think that I hear slightly less dynamic music.

The Squeezebox is wonderfully convenient and really cool, though...

There's about 40% compression. That doesn't mean you lost anything.
Hence the term LOSSLESS. But if you don't trust it, don't use it.
Hard drive space is pretty cheap anymore.

LuSh

Hi Reel,

With products like the Duet there is a small screen built right into your remote control that helps navigate through your CD collection or Internet radio. I like this feature very much.

I did some investigating on Audiogon awhile back and was shocked and almost baffled at the number of converts. Three systems in particular are using Logitech setup's with the following speakers: JM Labs Diva Utopia Be, Wilson Audio Sophia and Magico Mini II. Each system was also using similar priced pre/amp combos. Most users are reporting an upgrade in sound quality and dumping their $5k plus transports. I would really like to hear this to believe it...on the other hand investing a few hundred dollars and using my existing computer and DAC the risk factor seems to be very small.

mmadden28

Yep, no need for a PC in the listening room. With the Duet, you can stream from the PC via Ethernet or Wifi. Actually I stream from the same library on my PC to my Xbox360 as well as to my WiFi Roku.

I think I actually have an issue with my Duet though, it seems to screech or something randomly, but only when playing FLAC--reg MP3s are fine. At first I thought that maybe the WiFi can't handle the throughput, so I changed it to hardwire Cat6--Nope still an issue. I'm still looking into the cause-I haven't exhausted all my troubleshooting options yet including a possible external DAC issue.

On the Duet Remote-I find it extremely quirky and constantly needs to be rebooted or just runs so damn slow--its quite irritating, especially when you have it turned up for one song and the next song is louder and the remote doesn't respond fast enough and I have to get up off my lazy **** by the pool go in and turn the preamp volume down until it catches up. I deal with POS computer issues all day-I don't need my stereo to be giving me crap too! Even my cell phone needs to be rebooted once in a while WTH?! Even better I had to reboot one of my new light switches--yes Light switch! One of the smart dimmers--Just didn't respond-I had to flip the breaker to reset it--what is the world coming to??

Don't get me wrong I really do like my Duet--mega convenient, but the quirks irritate me--Granted though I use the latest nightly builds hoping for a fix to some of my issues, so its certainly possible some of my issues are due to buggy code.

Some other cool things I've discovered playing with my Duet, is you can download the server and Duet emulator software for free, and you can mimic the Duet (minus the remote) using a laptop. You can also have several players (duets or laptops) playing the same music with them all synced to each other. I did that for a party, I had my Duet playing the Pool area, while my computer (in sync with the Duet) via line out to a pre and amp took care of the front yard, all the while staying in sync.
You could also have them each playing their own stuff separately too. Lots of possibilities.

I recently discovered that the Duet remote itself also has a tiny speaker in it, and you can have you Duet playing one tune, while listing to a diff tune (perhaps one you might want to play next-like a DJ might do) by holding the remote to your ear like a phone--pretty nifty feature.; The remote also has a headphon jack for wireless headphone listening.

Lots of little lesser know things it is capable of so I figured I mention a couple even if amongst negative comments as well.

I will defintely be looking into the new SB Touch.

heiney9

The Squeeze Touch will have the lcd screen on the actual unit. No need for the Duet (or atleast an alt for the duet) and it's display.

Face

mmadden, I've never had any of those issues. Are you using the latest software and remote firmware?

mmadden28

Yes - Some of the issues I've had (not necessarily the ones I mentioned above) I did see in some of the nightly build forum discussions. Who knows maybe I have a bum unit--I've given it the Factory reset several times and and running the latest nightly builds via Auto update.
I'm glad to see that it might just be me--I'm still looking into some external factors for my FLAC issues.

Big Dawg

sucks2beme wrote: »

There's about 40% compression. That doesn't mean you lost anything.
Hence the term LOSSLESS. But if you don't trust it, don't use it.
Hard drive space is pretty cheap anymore.

Fair enough. As I said, I'm still not sure if what I'm hearing is simply a different volume level, or truly a loss of dynamics. I'll keep playing with it for a while until I make up my mind.

And I do understand that there is no reason to believe that there is any kind of information loss in the digital signal reaching my DAC. On the other hand, the arguments for the "Bolder" mods and using quality digital ICs, etc., argue that differences are real whatever their source. Just trying to be true to my ears.

Dawg

sucks2beme

Big Dawg wrote: »

Fair enough. As I said, I'm still not sure if what I'm hearing is simply a different volume level, or truly a loss of dynamics. I'll keep playing with it for a while until I make up my mind.

And I do understand that there is no reason to believe that there is any kind of information loss in the digital signal reaching my DAC. On the other hand, the arguments for the "Bolder" mods and using quality digital ICs, etc., argue that differences are real whatever their source. Just trying to be true to my ears.

Dawg

The real problem is in windows and the player. ASIO helps get it out there
without windows **** with it.

heiney9

Big Dawg wrote: »

Fair enough. As I said, I'm still not sure if what I'm hearing is simply a different volume level, or truly a loss of dynamics. I'll keep playing with it for a while until I make up my mind.

And I do understand that there is no reason to believe that there is any kind of information loss in the digital signal reaching my DAC. On the other hand, the arguments for the "Bolder" mods and using quality digital ICs, etc., argue that differences are real whatever their source. Just trying to be true to my ears.

Dawg

FLAC is lossless PERIOD. There is no loss of information. What you are experiencing is either your imagination or other things in the chain of audio that is affecting whatever percieved difference you hear.

I've used a SQb for about 2 years now and I was stubborn as hell to jump on the bandwagon. My brother has had one for twice as long. I A/B'd against my transport and never could hear a difference.

The Boulder mods affect other area's of the SQb they feel are weaknesses. I also don't recommend using the internal dac's as they are pretty mediocre and I think (IIRC) the Boulder mods affect some of the weaknesses of the internal dac's and power regulation.

I use mine with an outboard DAC and it's a really cool device that doesn't degrade anywhere along the signal path that I can tell...............and I'm pretty damn finicky and can hear very minute differences in my very familiar music passages.

H9

P.s. FLAC is how the music content is delivered..........it has nothing to do with lossy content or what the Boulder Mod's attempt to correct as weaknesses.

heiney9

sucks2beme wrote: »

The real problem is in windows and the player. ASIO helps get it out there
without windows **** with it.

Not if you are using a wireless system. Any PC based system where you use Windows as a player will have to figure a way to get bit perfect unadulturated digital stream. Using the SQb software w/ a wireless network doesn't introduce the elements of Windows playback you suggest.

Now if the PC is sitting right next to your rig and you are using a physical digital out via Toslink or Coax or USB then yes, some careful configuration is needed to get rid of all the nasty Windows processing

H9

SCompRacer

There is absolutely nothing lacking in Brock's and his brother Blakes PC based digital.

Brock, think back to '08. I had a Bolder Statement SB3 that I inherited from Norm's estate. I swung it in before you and Doug left and played a few CD's ripped to FLAC on my 'putie. The Statement mod removed all the OEM analog stage, reduced the output to 1.1 v and IIRC reversed phase after an early firmware update. My speaker cables were already reversed from having a single ended pre so I was good to go.

As good as the Statement mod was, it didn't best my current source. The Statement mod and available power supplies are very pricey, so an outboard DAC could be a better solution for some folks. Norm had a CI Audio power supply for the SB3.

MLZ

heiney9 wrote: »

Not if you are using a wireless system. Any PC based system where you use Windows as a player will have to figure a way to get bit perfect unadulturated digital stream. Using the SQb software w/ a wireless network doesn't introduce the elements of Windows playback you suggest.

Now if the PC is sitting right next to your rig and you are using a physical digital out via Toslink or Coax or USB then yes, some careful configuration is needed to get rid of all the nasty Windows processing

H9

Isn't a question of where the files are expanded: at the PC into .wav or at the SQb? I have a Roku and I think WMA Lossless are converted at the PC and streamed while MP3 are streamed compressed and converted at the SoundBridge. If the data being streamed is smaller, it will consume less bandwidth and so slow wireless will do, while larger .wav files might need a hardwired Cat5 connection.

I also thought most problems (I heard clicks, etc.) with KMixer in Windows / XP (which I got around by using FooBar2000 and ASIO4All) went away with Vista and Windows 7

strider

I've been saving my discs in FLAC files using dBPoweramp and playing them back through foobar2000 with the Asio plug in. No audible clicks or other noises that I've heard. Using USB into a Pacific Valve Fathom USB DAC with pretty decent results so far. Still think it could sound better. Really anxious to hear what another DAC sounds like in the mix.

I don't miss looking through 700+ discs to find the one I want. It was tedious burning them initially, but once you're done that it isn't bad to store them when you buy them.

After I get a new DAC to play with I'd like to see what the difference is using a Duet. Having the remote with artwork in my hand, rather then getting up to change stuff on the computer, is really appealing to me.

mmadden28

I also use my Duet remote for when I'm out at the pool. I move the Dig. IC from the two channel rig to the DAC and amp for my outdoor speakers. Works for selection and volume control.
Actually, technically one Duet remote can control many "players" and that includes the free emulator, so I could just setup and old laptop near my outdoor gear and run Squeezeplayer on it and still use the Duet remote--then I won't have to keep switching the IC.

Actually that's a good test--I'll run my FLAC through the PC base player to see if its an issue with the streaming or my "player". (By the way the same anomaly happens when in the 2 ch rig or the outdoor rig so its not a pre, DAC or amp issue.)

My only problem is the wireless range or at least through the walls from the remote to get to the SB itself is weak (I didn't expect a powerhouse signal from a small handheld remote but damn). I'm working on putting another Wifi Access point outside so I won't have that issue.